Everything what Linterdiction said is on point! Amazing analyze and insights! (Thank you personally)

I think name of this manga should be translated as "Do you want to COME OUT, or?" according to struggles of characters described in plot, and according to sense (but I don't know Japanese words to see is it really possible that title is misinterpreted or not), anyway I think my suggestion does have a sense at this point of discussion, whatever "coming out" is to Saeko)

Linterdiction said:

Is Saeko “gender-y”/trans, or is she holding trauma that alienates her from her body? It’s impossible to call right now imo, but I’m sure we’ll find out soon enough.

This is very important remark, connected with many things I said before in my comments, comparing gender identity struggles and sexuality struggles as overlapping that we can't be sure at some point what is what exactly.
But if we don't see dichotomy, our judgments can be wrong. And it's dangerous, because we can send a person with struggle into wrong direction (especially if that person is asking experts in field for help, like psychologists, psychiatrists, etc.)

My trans boyfriend/partner is too shy to write personally in public about his struggles and feelings, so I'll continue to be his lips, writing what I know, with his permission.

I will say something about trans alienation from the body from his perspective as AFAB person.
His childhood was happy, without sexual trauma. But with puberty he said he was "shocked" getting his first period and realizing that his body will transform into woman.
And later, he realized that his body is attracting males, and he felt practically "invisible". It does not matter how boyish he looked, he still attracted males and he did not like it.

Another alienation, is using males in sexual way, "impersonating" them (like "spiritual possession" of a body of a male during sex, and leaving own body "empty"). So, it seems like my trans bf was top even during sex with males when his body was the bottom, "impersonating" them. Strange, but that is how he was only able to become unison mentally-physically, to connect with other body which is more "adequate" physically to his mind.

Next, almost always having a feeling of a threesome with just one sexual partner (gender irrelevant)

And very often "watching from above", like NTR, very similar to Saeko, but from different reasons from hers; sometimes even to get sexual pleasure from it, but not through direct connection with own body. Sex was "out of the body" experience, like something spiritual.

And during sex with female, especially as the bottom, like Saeko, not being able to connect body and soul to respond unison.
It's exactly what Linterdiction said:

Saeko seems to be a top because she has to enact her sexual desire through another’s body, in much the same way I and other trans people turn to fantasy and fiction or pleasing our partners to engage with our own sexuality without involving the gendered features of our bodies.

These are all defense mechanisms of retreat and withdrawal, and all of them involve not being able to inhabit and connect with your body.

And it is happening not from trauma to transgender persons. It is how it is. Disconnection with a body is often from the feelings that body is "inadequate", and you simply can't respond physically-mentally on some stimulation. Gender of the body is not simply gender of the mind, awareness.
And you can't change awareness how you feel who you are.
I can understand my trans bf completely, without judging.
It was his way to figure out himself, often jumping into fire exposing himself to not always quite pleasant situations. I think he is very brave person.

I hope this can give more insights in manga and in life itself.

last edited at Aug 16, 2020 3:03PM

I wish to add, my trans bf was constantly exposed to traumatic experience of misplaced gender, and it pulls sexual struggles and unwanted sexual interests in his AFAB body, interests of males or females. But it was not him into what and whom they were interested, and he did not wish to be loved or wanted for something who and what he is not.

With me it changed, I'm interested in him it does not matter how his body looks like when I know who lives in there, treating him as he deserves with all my respect and love.

And it's very similar like I (as a female) am living with a married couple, accepting his/their both sides as two different entities equally deserving my love. So he can be himself completely with me, and at piece like in oasis, whatever is outside.
And even if he can't accomplish for now his transition from personal reasons, and many others are still misplacing his gender, it's irrelevant to him.
He knows who he is, and I know. It's only important, and it's intimacy between us. And we have authority to share it to whom we want, choosing this forum, for example.

We wish to thank to all participants in this discussion for sharing their own life experiences and opinions inspired with this amazing manga.

last edited at Aug 16, 2020 10:21PM

We wish to thank to all participants in this discussion for sharing their own life experiences and opinions inspired with this amazing manga.

Bruh, that sound like it was a conference.

We wish to thank to all participants in this discussion for sharing their own life experiences and opinions inspired with this amazing manga.

Bruh, that sound like it was a conference.

Hahahaha, yeah, now I see

and it is happening not from trauma to transgender persons. It is how it is

I would actually refine that a little bit: I think that a lot of these examples are responses to traumatic experiences, but specifically those traumas arise from existing as a trans person in a cis society with strong gendered expectations of your body. I think many of us feel distress from a spiritual/physical disconnect with ourselves not merely because of the characteristics of our bodies, but also how those are treated as subjects by a sexist cis society: that is to say, we are displaced from our selves because we are treated with a constant, unchallenged assumption that we "are" other than we are. We dissociate not just (or, I would argue, even primarily) because we are mentally different from our bodies, but because those bodies are taken from us and placed elsewhere, far from our true location in gender, by cissexism, and we are forced to adapt mentally and occupy that other place in order to function in a society with no room for us.

That is why, during transition, we aren't merely coming to a reckoning with ourselves and returning mentally/spiritually to the place we belong, but must also learn how to undo the incorrect and dehumanizing impositions of gender onto our bodies, and return to a healthy understanding of them. It is not enough for me to realize I am a trans woman and work through all of that: I must also recognize that my body is a woman's body, and work through the imposed belief that it does not fit or is wrong for me.

Anyway, back to the manga, it seems Saeko has to do some reckoning as well, and it's not looking like it'll be the gentle kind.

last edited at Aug 19, 2020 1:47AM

@MochaKiss

Same thoughts here. This is also why WHO no longer classifies Gender Identity Disorder as a mental disorder just last year. On the other hand, Gender Dysphoria (which replaced GID) in particular is the distress one feels about their gender identity and is supposedly a 'mismatch' because guess why they have all those distress in the first place? Society expects them to fit in the traditional gender role of their sex that if they're not fitting in then they must have mismatched identity because apparently there are only two gender identity to be in (sarcasm). This is the same reasoning the medical community used in viewing and "treating" homosexuals in the 1900s, not only them but homosexuals themselves feel distressed by their attractions with the same sex enough to seek treatment themselves. This says a lot about the state of society back then and not the individual.

No matter, if I tell a woman to make me a sandwich and she doesn't like making a sandwich, I'll make up a disorder to alienate her and others who will be like her and then present a treatment. And then wonder among ourselves why there are so many like her who are distressed and having mental health complications. This cycle will continue for generations of children who will grow up believing that doing and liking things out of their traditional gender role would mean they are the opposite gender (binary) and is a mental disorder or distress that needs fixing. If children have this mindset growing up, you will have a bunch of children thinking that they should fix this instead of accepting and knowing that they can express their own gender out of the binary and that it's okay.

last edited at Aug 22, 2020 7:22PM

@Zormau
Just some food for thought about transgender people based on your previous post

1. WHO no longer classifies GID as a mental disorder since last year. Moreover, the "pain" associated with transgender people are often caused by stigma from society, much like how homosexuality was once treated as a disorder.

2. A female non-binary/genderqueer/transgender can still identify with women.

3. Transgender is not equal transsexual. This kind of notion causes stigma for other transgender people who doesn't need/want to transition.

In my opinion, a gendered society will always impose gender binary and gender binary is an outdated idea. Future society will dictate what these roles will be eventually and the way society is becoming more accepting of different gender expressions now will definitely affect how society will view the matter in the future.

last edited at Aug 22, 2020 7:20PM

I discovered that I was bisexual in the same way, watching a series with lgbtq representation
and this is one of the many reasons why I defend lgbtq representation, it helps a lot to accept oneself, at least it made me feel good about myself at that time

The things is put on tv those days
Yep. like Donald Trump speak as president...

Holly, how was annoyed this talks about boys, is almost an sterereotype walking

cute chapter!

is that girl doing something with an older man, maybe a teacher? perhaps for money? heading to the teachers office after school, the car waiting by the gate, her distant look, etc...

is that girl doing something with an older man, maybe a teacher? perhaps for money? heading to the teachers office after school, the car waiting by the gate, her distant look, etc...

This is what jumped out to me, commenting on how she looks like she has given up on humanity and then a creepy car waiting outside of the school. Dropping off the keys just seems like a way to delay her departure so Miwa doesn't see. Hopefully wrong though.

last edited at Aug 23, 2020 10:50PM

Hopefully wrong though.

agreed.

Her mom is gonna be a problem i see

bruh I didn't expect to see Glee here

is that girl doing something with an older man, maybe a teacher? perhaps for money? heading to the teachers office after school, the car waiting by the gate, her distant look, etc...

Glad someone pointed it out, there's no way that was put there for no reason at all, seems pretty fishy.

bruh I didn't expect to see Glee here

Haha! My thoughts as well!

bruh I didn't expect to see Glee here

Haha! My thoughts as well!

Mr. Worldwide

Oh oh oh. Flashback arc starts.
It's obvious Shiho has lotsa secrets. Layers over layers of secrets. I'm afraid this is gonna be like the Miyuki flashback arc in 1 x ½... that is: after a few chapters all about Shiho, people are gonna start writing that they're utterly sick and tired of this flashback drama crap and wanna return to Saeko x Miwa now.

Btw was that a real tv show that Miwa was watching? I don't think I know those characters.

This is such a great chapter for many reasons but I think the comment in the credits really summed it up the best. Shiho seems interesting, would like to see more of what happened there if anything did happen

her mom holding the knife at the end feels vaguely threatening

i don't really remember the moment i figured out i wasn't ever gonna like boys, but media definitely played a role in it for me too. back in the era of the 10-minute video length limit on youtube i'd watch bootlegs of queer film in chunks. But I'm a Cheerleader, Bound, Fingersmith, D.E.B.S., Water Lillies, stuff like that.

Searching "girls kissing" on youtube--everyone did that, right?

Dammit, mom, put down the knife, you look like a yandere meme there...

Oh oh oh. Flashback arc starts.
It's obvious Shiho has lotsa secrets. Layers over layers of secrets. I'm afraid this is gonna be like the Miyuki flashback arc in 1 x ½... that is: after a few chapters all about Shiho, people are gonna start writing that they're utterly sick and tired of this flashback drama crap and wanna return to Saeko x Miwa now.

Say what you want about Predictive Lamenting—it’s an ethos. Or maybe an addiction.

This author has shown no signs at all of structuring the story the way it’s done in 1 x 1/2—at most Shiho has a vague resemblance to Miyuki in character design.

Oh oh oh. Flashback arc starts.
It's obvious Shiho has lotsa secrets. Layers over layers of secrets. I'm afraid this is gonna be like the Miyuki flashback arc in 1 x ½... that is: after a few chapters all about Shiho, people are gonna start writing that they're utterly sick and tired of this flashback drama crap and wanna return to Saeko x Miwa now.

Not gonna lie.

Unless I'm hooked on a side character, I don't enjoy flashbacks involving side characters. There's one that I love in Hana Ni Arashi (the kinda-ex-love-interest senpai) and I liked that it was a balance of building exposition and then rolling it out. Many flashback arcs have been dragged on so painfully slowly that I understand why folks would rather scratch their eyeballs out than carry on reading the stuff.

Btw was that a real tv show that Miwa was watching? I don't think I know those characters.

Well, Glee was mentioned here. Maybe it's that show. I can't remember any American TV show that had a lesbian power couple in it and was taken seriously. Granted, it said "Western" but Glee had been such a worldwide phenomenon it had a Japanese dub.

last edited at Aug 24, 2020 7:57AM

Oh oh oh. Flashback arc starts.
It's obvious Shiho has lotsa secrets. Layers over layers of secrets. I'm afraid this is gonna be like the Miyuki flashback arc in 1 x ½... that is: after a few chapters all about Shiho, people are gonna start writing that they're utterly sick and tired of this flashback drama crap and wanna return to Saeko x Miwa now.

Btw was that a real tv show that Miwa was watching? I don't think I know those characters.

Not the never ending flashback! Anything but that!

Mother don t say that it's hurt very much