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Blastaar
Yuru Oyako discussion 27 Nov 22:06
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joined Jul 29, 2017

I love how elegantly the problem was solved.

Indeed, the whole issue of marriage between parent and child is a problem only if you think about it in Westerner terms (going to a church, asking for divine blessings, all that stuff). If you think about it in Japanese terms, marriage is not different from adoption: someone who wasn't in your family register goes to the city hall with you and enters your family register — and from that day on, you're family. Thus there's no need for a family member (a child, a sibling) to marry you: you're already like that since the day you were born. Brilliant!

Wait, I feel sure there was also something about “get married and have sex,” wasn’t there?

I’m sure I heard about that somewhere . . .

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 26 Nov 11:04
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joined Jul 29, 2017

Citrus Plus will be about how they can restart intimacy from a 60-floor luxury condo apartment building fire (metaphor for her burning down their relationship and lying to her and running away).

To your “one-dimensional Yuzu” point (not that I hold it against her—at least one of the MCs is consistently written), is there any indication that Yuzu holds even the slightest resentment (or any other kind of negative feeling) against Mei for that sudden breakup (let alone for Mei not saying anything about the eventual arranged marriage while they were together)?

Yuzu just seems relieved and happy to have Mei back after her successful rescue mission. (I’m starting to see Yuzu’s role as basically the same as the protagonist in hero-dog stories.) So if in fact Mei’s current character is a function of her guilt about hurting Yuzu, it’s yet another example of her carrying everything inside without communicating with her supposed life-partner.

last edited at Nov 26, 2020 11:04AM

Blastaar
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joined Jul 29, 2017

^ elevown, we’re mostly not talking about grammar per se here, but rather idioms—those little usage conventions that aren’t strictly logical but simply the way native speakers habitually use words. It’s not at all clear why in English trouser-like things became a plural while upper-body garments are singular—they just are.

It’s like in British (and elsewhere) English the short form of “mathematics” is “maths” while it’s “math” in the US, or how Brits say that someone is “in hospital” while US people say “in the hospital”—there’s no compelling grammatical reason, that’s just how it’s done.

My joke, which has now become exceedingly tedious, was based on the fact that whatever the fuck Hino had in that bag seemed to have lost any residual suggestion of “twoness” remaining in panties (I do note, tediously, that a G-string is also a singular noun).

Not that I’m a linguist: https://xkcd.com/2390/

last edited at Nov 26, 2020 10:00AM

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 26 Nov 09:32
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joined Jul 29, 2017

Where is Mei's agency?

First place I would look would be Sabu’s junk drawer, or wherever that one missing sock goes in the laundry room. :)

Although I personally don’t find either one of the HaruMatsu pair especially interesting, I agree with most of your post.

And it would be just like arch-troll Saburouta to end the series by giving us a HaruMatsu sex scene while Mei and Yuzu continue to cling grimly to their chastity while sleeping in the same bed.

Blastaar
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joined Jul 29, 2017

I don't know what I expected

I think that's the key to why it's so funny--I half-thought maybe cutesy panties with characters on them, or frilly lacey things, or, if I'd thought a little harder, crotchless.

I did not expect that/them.

EDIT: That's not even mentioning Hino's finely honed telepathic understanding of Omichi's predicament--she's tres formidable and hopelessly useless simultaneously.

The precisely matched layouts of pages 8 & 9 are a lovely touch.

last edited at Nov 24, 2020 9:58AM

Blastaar
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joined Jul 29, 2017

That would definitely be worse than going commando. At least she can justifiably say that not having underwear was a stupid mistake, but people will assume there was deliberate intent if she's caught wearing those.

Grammar question: would it be “caught wearing those, or “caught wearing that?

Inquiring minds . . .

In common use either of them could work. Grammatically, however, I believe "those" would be truly correct, because the bottom piece of underwear is referred to in the plural.

I was making a joke about the actual construction of the object—of course, underwear in the form of panties or boxers is “those” or “them,” but a chastity belt or garter would be “that.”

A legitimate question when the bag was opened would be, “WTF is that?” as opposed to “WTF are those?”

EDIT: I love the little apparent reinforcement in the “contact” area. Hino’s attention to detail is unparalleled.

last edited at Nov 24, 2020 8:52AM

Blastaar
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joined Jul 29, 2017

That would definitely be worse than going commando. At least she can justifiably say that not having underwear was a stupid mistake, but people will assume there was deliberate intent if she's caught wearing those.

Grammar question: would it be “caught wearing those, or “caught wearing that?

Inquiring minds . . .

Blastaar
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joined Jul 29, 2017

I’m dying here . . .

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 23 Nov 15:22
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joined Jul 29, 2017

Well, Nene was the catalyst for Mitsuko's little wager with Mei and the subsequent modification to the Academy rules that eventually let Matsuri attend in all of her pink-haired glory, so there's that.

Right, the "gyarus corrupting the next generation" business--Nene's moment of glory.

Subsequently she's had all the presence of Mei's teddy bear and about an equally (heck, arguably less) risible story function.

Her backstory is probably best held back for the Citrus: Secret Origins spinoff.

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 23 Nov 14:53
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joined Jul 29, 2017

I am gonna say this once. NENE sucks and she is boring and personally I believe that nothing would be different in the manga if she never existed,unlike Harumin and Matsuri.

I've always thought Nene was pretty obviously Saburouta trolling HaruYuzu shippers, period.

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 23 Nov 12:36
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joined Jul 29, 2017

the cmt section of Citrus is even more dramatic than the manga LOL.

Not an incredibly high bar these days, to be sure.

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 23 Nov 11:14
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joined Jul 29, 2017

What 'premise' are you referring to? Lesbian stepsisters? Or arranged marriages?

Arranged Marriages

I certainly never had a problem with "traditional values" in the series. Lazy, unfocused writing and hand-waving problem-solving, yes. But traditional values, no.

Handwaving problem-solving was certainly an issue but a lot of the grievances the US fandom directly stem from a combination of both the looming "threat" of Mei's arranged marriage and her lack of initiative to do anything about it.

There again, the problem with that for me was that the story had established that with Sensei McRapey gone, arranged marriage for Mei was off the table until Saburouta, clearly at a loss for what to do with the story after wandering around aimlessly in the middle Shirapon/festival, etc. chapters, pulled it out of her ass to set up the big (handwaving) finale.

Had that arranged-marriage development been prefigured even a bit methodically, or had Mei mentioned it to her supposed partner like a halfway rational human being, it would have been a different, and more coherent, story.

I of course cannot speak for "US fandom," only for myself.

But the nuances of Japanese culture in terms of inheritance, wealthy family expectations, etc. got extensive discussion here, and for all the problems people had with the execution of the storytelling, the gist of the opinions was not simply "those values suck."

The cultural specificity of the kind of families that live in houses with The Thing That Goes "Doink" (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheThingThatGoesDoink) is hardly news to anyone who reads very much manga--generational expectations, overbearing parents and grandparents, arranged marriages, etc. are among the hoariest of manga tropes.

EDIT: tl;dr: what random said.

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 11:15AM

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 23 Nov 10:38
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joined Jul 29, 2017

Is not entirely wrong though.

The value dissonance at play when it comes to citrus is easily spotted when you look at what the different fandoms all over the world think about the series. American fandom is by far the most vitriolic since the notion of having to live according to old traditions is deemed as insane for most Americans. In contrast, Spanish-speaking fans are much more receptive to the premise since those countries exist similar traditions. And for what it's worth, looking for the series or the characters' names in Japanes on twitter shows generally positive opinions from Japanese accounts.

What 'premise' are you referring to? Lesbian stepsisters? Or arranged marriages?

I certainly never had a problem with "traditional values" in the series. Lazy, unfocused writing and hand-waving problem-solving, yes. But traditional values, no.

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 23 Nov 09:54
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joined Jul 29, 2017

I mean, japanese culture and values have always been an important factor in the writing of citrus, that much is true.

I doubt if there's a single conscious reader of Citrus who failed to get that from the first few chapters.

"Everyone in Japan agrees with me" needs to become the new Dynasty argument-clincher.

As in: "Everyone in Japan agrees with me that the side characters in Citrus are more interesting than the MC, except this one guy in southern Hokkaido, but he's always been kind of a prick, and more than half-Ainu anyway."

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 23 Nov 06:12
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joined Jul 29, 2017

OK, Erogequeen, we get it—your readings are always right because of your superior understanding of Japanese language and your deep insight into the nuances of Japanese culture, and your freedom from the blinders that prevent we benighted Westerners from grasping the true significance of what we’re looking at.

I understand why condescension must be so unavoidable when redressing the ignorance of others,

Personally I'm looking forward to the reasoning as to how their cultural knowledge and familiarity with the plot is superior to Saburouta's when things don't go the way they want.

Right—Saburouta, in contrast to all the dozens if not hundreds of other manga we’ve read, is channeling the deeply ingrained essence of Japanese cultural identity.

Especially the part about stepsisters having lesbian relationships and getting gay-married.

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 23 Nov 03:23
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joined Jul 29, 2017

OK, Erogequeen, we get it—your readings are always right because of your superior understanding of Japanese language and your deep insight into the nuances of Japanese culture, and your freedom from the blinders that prevent we benighted Westerners from grasping the true significance of what we’re looking at.

I understand why condescension must be so unavoidable when redressing the ignorance of others,

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 22 Nov 19:14
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joined Jul 29, 2017

After all, let’s be frank, in the end the side characters and pairings are always more interesting than the main couple.

Let’s be frank, in the end this is a completely specious generalization—sometimes they are, and very often they’re not.

Like others have said, I find Harumin (to say nothing of her almost invisible sister) to be profoundly uninteresting except as someone for Yuzu to talk to, and the domesticated version of Matsuri only slightly less so.

And as Lilliwyt says, the idea that the only options for Mei and Yuzu are artificial “drama” or this bizarre developmental regression where they appear to have lost about 5 years from the earliest chapters is quite preposterous. (I mean seriously—you’re engaged to be married and you’re still doing that “talking through the teddy bear” thing?)

As just a crazy example off the top of my head, scenes of them sitting around at home having a friendly everyday conversation (you know, in the bed they actually share) would be quite commensurate with a series whose main focus is the other characters.

last edited at Nov 22, 2020 7:18PM

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joined Jul 29, 2017

She could have also said something along the lines of "It's rude to treat homosexuality as a costume you can put on when convenient, since actual lesbians can't just turn it off and face actual persecution for it."

Because that would totally have been in character and all.

Especially addressed to someone she has (tenuous) hopes of getting in the sack.

Blastaar
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joined Jul 29, 2017

Is it normal when someone says 'I'm going to the toilet' to reply 'Have fun'?

It's my usual response.

Literal (my) Dad joke: "Mention my name--you'll get a good seat."

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joined Jul 29, 2017

Oh so older sister is indeed gay, poor thing is being made to pretend to be gay with the actual person she likes.

I was reading this statement rather differently than everyone else seems to be. It's not that there's any force or coercion involved, it's just that if she's going to be with the person she likes, she needs to pretend she's gay (when she's actually gay). So she's being "made" to do it only by the circumstances, not by anyone else.

After all, when the other girl says, "I know--let's get publicity by pretending to be a gay couple!" her options were either to agree or to give a reason for refusing, which would be:

  • "I'm uncomfortable pretending to be gay," which sends the message that she's not OK with gayness, or

  • "It would be too painful because I'm actually gay and in love with you," which she's obviously not prepared to do.

So the reasonable thing (from her POV) is to play along and hope to someday somehow turn "kidding" into "not kidding."

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 22 Nov 06:52
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joined Jul 29, 2017

So that simple question stands - are you criticizing Citrus+ as the story it is, or for failing to be the different story you wish Saburouta had written instead?

Both. (This is my opinion—my “subjective reaction,” if you will, so of course others will disagree):

  • Mei used to be an interesting, complex, and forceful character.

  • Now she is (with some rare exceptions) a boring cringing ninny.

I am criticizing Citrus+ for featuring Mei as a boring cringing ninny.

I wish Saburouta had written a different story in which Mei had remained an interesting, complex, and forceful character.

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 22 Nov 03:15
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joined Jul 29, 2017

circamore, you do so much projecting and speculating about my motivations that there’s really no point in me trying to clarify each of your individual misapprehensions one by one. (Your juvenile canard that I think “there is only one right way to tell a story” most of all.)

I think I’m a pretty clear writer, and I’ve already said what I have to say here.

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 21 Nov 20:23
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joined Jul 29, 2017

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

Except that it didn't. Citrus+ is not the same story, it may be in the same continuity, but it is quite deliberately a spin-off: a different story with a different tone, a different pace and different focus.

Of course, this is just mincing words.

Your description is accurate (as far as it goes) and so is mine--they're the same characters in the two series, with the same past, and the same motivations, and the same development, existing in the same setting. The later series may be a spinoff with a different focus than the first, but these are not "different" characters--they're characters who have been continuous from Citrus, Chapter 1 to Citrus +, Volume 3.

Nothing in Citrus + suggests that anything in Citrus has been retconned, rendered non-canonical, or declared null and void.

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joined Jul 29, 2017

Yes go read it, it's excellent. Easily my current favourite.

Also not sure why no one mentioned it yet - "elsewhere" means Mangadex :P (unless it's understood to be one of these "posting-scanlations-for-profit sites" like mentioned in the forum rules, but I don't get the impression that it is).

Right, Mangadex, but I don't know where other readers might prefer to go or what the situation is with other manga sites.

But, Mangadex.

Blastaar
Citrus + discussion 21 Nov 10:01
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joined Jul 29, 2017

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so guarantees ):

From my POV: no worries. Just thanks for all your work, and an extra thanks for making the effort to clarify things.