Forum › So, Do You Want To Go Out, Or? discussion

EmergentLurker
joined Aug 1, 2019

A lot of the responses Saeko shows make me concerned, they scarily line up with family abuse survivors.

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

Spoiler ahead Apparently they will break up in 10 chapters or so but given what happen in the latest chapter, which is 10 chapters ahead of the break up, it's clearly not the same thing as the OS.

Finding Jessica Lambert
joined Jun 20, 2020

I was thinking how Saeko have some hidden inner woman within herself, but I'm not sure about it anymore.

Now I think she is the slightest form of trans man. A straight trans man, exclusive top, who is somehow comfortable with female body, until sexually using that body in a way who Saeko isn't.

In that case, Saeko is not transsexual, but some transgender issues here are obvious. Tomboys belong to lesbian spectrum observing through sexuality and assigned sex at birth, but to transgender spectrum as well, observing identity expression through boyish look. Like both in same time.
I would be glad to hear other opinions about it, without drama and judgment to my personal point of view.

Saeko is watching herself from above "with cold eyes", it's definitely a split of personality in a moment. Her identity is "watching" her sexuality, expressed in a "wrong" way (being bottom is just unnatural for Saeko, she can't identify with it, she does not have anything to give through it, it simply is not a part of her inner being and it can't be forced).

This is my impression in current situation, how I perceive it for now.

joined May 1, 2013

I was thinking how Saeko have some hidden inner woman within herself, but I'm not sure about it anymore.

Now I think she is the slightest form of trans man. A straight trans man, exclusive top, who is somehow comfortable with female body, until sexually using that body in a way who Saeko isn't.

In that case, Saeko is not transsexual, but some transgender issues here are obvious. Tomboys belong to lesbian spectrum observing through sexuality and assigned sex at birth, but to transgender spectrum as well, observing identity expression through boyish look. Like both in same time.
I would be glad to hear other opinions about it, without drama and judgment to my personal point of view.

Saeko is watching herself from above "with cold eyes", it's definitely a split of personality in a moment. Her identity is "watching" her sexuality, expressed in a "wrong" way (being bottom is just unnatural for Saeko, she can't identify with it, she does not have anything to give through it, it simply is not a part of her inner being and it can't be forced).

This is my impression in current situation, how I perceive it for now.

This is interesting, and it would be cool if a manga like this explored that, but I don't think it's what's going on. It's been made pretty clear that Saeko's issue is with PLEASURE. It's shown that she's fine being touched until it starts to feel good, at which point she locks into a panic mode of cursing at herself in her head. As a teenager, she didn't seem upset getting penetrated by a guy, except it confirming how gay she is.

She doesn't think she deserves pleasure for some reason we haven't fully explored yet. Whether that's the central part, or if it's the fear of looking vulnerable, it's not clear.

Img_0186
joined Jul 18, 2020

I was thinking how Saeko have some hidden inner woman within herself, but I'm not sure about it anymore.

Now I think she is the slightest form of trans man. A straight trans man, exclusive top, who is somehow comfortable with female body, until sexually using that body in a way who Saeko isn't.

In that case, Saeko is not transsexual, but some transgender issues here are obvious. Tomboys belong to lesbian spectrum observing through sexuality and assigned sex at birth, but to transgender spectrum as well, observing identity expression through boyish look. Like both in same time.
I would be glad to hear other opinions about it, without drama and judgment to my personal point of view.

Saeko is watching herself from above "with cold eyes", it's definitely a split of personality in a moment. Her identity is "watching" her sexuality, expressed in a "wrong" way (being bottom is just unnatural for Saeko, she can't identify with it, she does not have anything to give through it, it simply is not a part of her inner being and it can't be forced).

This is my impression in current situation, how I perceive it for now.

I grew up as a lesbian tomboy and now consider myself nonbinary, so I can definitely see where you’re coming from, but personally I don’t peg Saeko as trans.

That watching herself from above thing seems like dissociation, which is often but not always a trauma response. If I were to armchair diagnose her, I’d say she’s probably got cptsd from whatever happened in middle school.

It’s true that lots of trans people report feelings of dissociation before transition, which makes sense. It’s a pretty traumatic thing to live as the wrong gender. But I would hesitate to say this is Saeko’s case. She doesn’t seem to have dysphoria (not that dysphoria is always necessary to be trans), and right now I’m not I’m not convinced that she’s secretly uncomfortable as a woman. I think she just happens to fall on the more butch end of the lesbian gender expression spectrum. When she does things like keep her hair long instead of cutting it short (which she might like better), I get the feeling she does that to better pass as straight, not convince herself that she’s actually fine with femininity and being a woman.

(And that hair thing actually works, at least in my case. Ever since I grew my hair out people have treated me a lot more nicely, and I think it’s because they can’t as easily peg me as the gay gender deviant that I am. They don’t waste time giving me the “what even are you” stare or fumbling with pronouns as often as they used to.)

But I don’t really know, that’s just what I think right now.

Dynav
joined Aug 6, 2013

I can relate to what Saeko is going through. Been really enjoying this perspective, & this manga.

B61e85481cd305c6139d74d53e7100cf--pixel-ideas
joined Sep 20, 2017

Damn Saeko has some problems.. hope Miwa can help her :(
That aside, this manga has really taken an interesting turn huh. Not what I was expecting at all in the beginning.

Finding Jessica Lambert
joined Jun 20, 2020

Thank you karp and firelizard for sharing your opinions, I enjoyed very much reading it and giving a thought.

For me it was interesting to think about border lines between sexuality and identity, and I'm finding this case with Saeko as very good example which shows how blurry the borders are when we are ending one spectrum entering the other.

This is the reason why I'm perceiving Saeko as a border case, she has an unclear mixture in herself about sexuality and gender identity expressions. Comfortable with female body, but unable to express her femininity through it. She can't receive her pleasure on that way.

So, we are questioning now, why? Some think it's trauma, some think is insecurity, some think it's self-hatred, etc. Always some issues.
And from manga we see how Saeko is very uncomfortable to lie. She feels how she feels, and in certain situation, as a bottom, she feels like betraying herself lying to be who she is not.
She is lying herself, she is lying Miwa,... and she cries.

Top and bottom are just assumed gender roles of male and female, but reality proves it's not connected to physical parts of a person. It's a question of identity, an abstract category and question of soul and consciousness. How we express ourselves sexually, or identify, it's about our mind and soul.
I observe it through transgender spectrum from that reason (like "metatrans" situation, a lesbian sexuality "transitioned" into form of attraction to females, even if females are usually attracted to males).
I think many people are living on the border, having a blurry line and some mixture of man-woman, expressing it through sexuality, or identity.
Transition would be just taking actions to correct the body if it goes in deeper level, but it's entering a transsexual spectrum...

Why Saeko must have any issue to feel how she feels?
I don't see any illness when someone is uncomfortable to express a certain gender role through sexuality, like Saeko. It's a common thing if we observe straight couples.
Maybe it's not a problem with her, but with environment, or expectations of environment?

last edited at Aug 14, 2020 3:37PM

52722-l
joined Nov 8, 2017

Saeko (and most anime/manga characters) be like

AnimexObsession
Screenshot%20(107)
joined Dec 27, 2014

Every chapter increases my intense longing to drag Saeko's ass to therapy

Harumin
joined Jun 1, 2018

I really feel for Saeko in this chapter. Her self-esteem issues are very relatable.

joined Aug 29, 2019

Reading the new chapter:
Ok, Coworker-San knows what's up, should advise them more.
Page 8: It's getting hard to continue, the cringe is strong. Uncomfortably real, though.
Page 9: "It's all about communication!" The irony in that sentence made me laugh.
Page 19: I'm starting to become indifferent. Honestly at this point Sae's missed so many fucking opportunities (literally) to talk about what's bothering her, it's starting to frustrate me. I mean she's already at the point where she admits to herself that Miwa'd understand and forgive her, but no, she has to keep piling on more and more pain.

Saeko (and most anime/manga characters) be like

This is basically the one thing that currently keeps any issues from being resolved. Miwa has started talking, but Saeko can't respond in earnest yet. "You gotta read your partner's reactions" - well, it's not like there's any genuine reactions to read except "she's clearly uncomfortable, but tells me otherwise, so I is confusement". Miwa proabably is capable of reading her partner, but she's not getting good signals. If Saeko keeps that up, she'll ruin that relationship. Not, as others insinuate, because "there is no chemistry between the characters" (I think there absolutely is), but because she's unable to maintain any healthy romantic relationship if she won't talk about her issues.

As for the other discussions going on:

I would be very careful about asserting that Saeko's issues fall in the "trans" category, and I'd rather not rely on the vernacular. Though, having skipped back to chapter 19 and read up on what happened, it could seem possible that she's somewhat uncomfortable with her idea of womanhood. Being a tomboy is not a trans issue per se, though, and shouldn't be pathologised haphazardly. At its core it's simply having an atypical personality composition for a woman, not an incompatibility that requires transitioning or therapy to "resolve". Being top or bottom doesn't (or rather: shouldn't) depend on gender or sex either, it's (or rather: it should be) the result of the respective personality traits combined with which partner can maintain more awareness during sex. If mutual stimulation happens, the partner that's "more in control" should guide the interaction in accordance with the feedback they receive from their partner. It's slightly different in situations where only one party is being stimulated (as has always been the case here).

And here's where my wild hypothesis comes in: Saeko let go of her senses during sex in middle or high-school and went completely wild in the wrong situation, with an exploitative partner or ill-meaning third party recording everything. Tape got out, reputation ruined, self-respect ruined, mental blockade against "letting herself go" established and solidified, essentially she's suffering trauma due to what amounts to sexual abuse. Long hair could serve to be less recognisable as well as to distance herself from her old self. Thus she refuses to let Miwa take control or even stimulate herself in front of Miwa, and she can't switch off her brain when Miwa tries to "do her". Also explains her strong reaction when she met her old peers - they've long moved past the incident, while Saeko's never had the chance to get over it and just wants out of the situation.
What proof do I have? No concrete evidence, just wild speculation! I don't think that's what actually happened, but it's not entirely unrealistic either. I'm pretty confident that there's trauma one way or another, and it's something she's deathly afraid of talking about, which usually means it's considered extremely shameful to talk about.

joined Jun 12, 2019

I recently followed this author on twitter and she posted a preview of like chapter 42 the other day and it's still all I can think about. Why did I read it???? I skipped 20 chapters and caught a glimpse of the future, and now my reading experience is cursed by this sword of Damocles...

Anyway, sure seems Saeko's got some baggage, huh. I hope she learns to confide in Miwa if nothing else.

Really want you to spoil it for me omg

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, but...This is her twitter, venture in at your own risk. Apparently the new chapter just came out today:

https://twitter.com/_tmfly_

no I was serious lol thank youu

joined Aug 29, 2019

Speaking of the creators posting previews of chapter 42... how many chapters are we behind o.O
Are we gonna get chapters as fast as SAD can put out new ones or is the Japanese release also just in the twenties? The former would be rad. Do people still say "rad"?

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

Speaking of the creators posting previews of chapter 42... how many chapters are we behind o.O
Are we gonna get chapters as fast as SAD can put out new ones or is the Japanese release also just in the twenties? The former would be rad. Do people still say "rad"?

Considering we are at 23 then we are 21 chapters behind. Last raw chapter was 44.

Finding Jessica Lambert
joined Jun 20, 2020

As for the other discussions going on:

I would be very careful about asserting that Saeko's issues fall in the "trans" category, ...............................................it could seem possible that she's somewhat uncomfortable with her idea of womanhood. Being a tomboy is not a trans issue per se, though, and shouldn't be pathologised haphazardly. At its core it's simply having an atypical personality composition for a woman, not an incompatibility that requires transitioning or therapy to "resolve".

"uncomfortable with her idea of womanhood."- It's enough to observe it through trans spectrum, even if she does not need to change pronounce, use hormones, etc.

All my points are aimed to show from Saeko's example how we can't make clear line "where woman ends and man begins".
I would rather say, tomBOY lesbian is a point where trans spectrum starts without necessity for that person to go further into transition to change physical features and sex.

I think problem is, people see transgender persons as someone who must change pronounce, use hormones, etc. and it happens going deeper into trans spectrum, where gender identity needs physical expression through change of body features. But if someone, like Saeko, can't express sexuality through female gender role which should be easy for her as woman, it's also trans issue.

Saeko IS having transgender issues without any needs to change anything.
But society rather loves to call her "mentally ill woman", "not enough a woman", "broken woman"..., than accept it as transgender issue. It's easier to observe it through physical level, than through an abstraction as gender identity.

So, for that "symptoms" which Saeko is expressing, we must find the way to justify our way of thinking and find a reasons "what's wrong with her". So, she must be a victim of something or someone, that we can have pity on her, or understand her sufferings. If we exalt her situation on gender identity level, we won't comprehend her feelings.
And that's why many rather would call her mentally ill woman, than to understand her as normal and healthy person with trans issues who is in "wrong physical position" passing through wrong circumstances in life.

She could have hardships from the past with her sexuality, but I think it did not change her core; she still identifies herself as a top, because even if she was forced to be a bottom, it can't make her the bottom (-same as forcing a gay person to have hetero sex will not turn them straight-).
Technically, she will always faking in that position, and it's bothering her. She can't make Miwa happy receiving pleasures on that way, and it makes her sad and frustrated- she must lie to her to make her happy. And it's not possible. How can you give of yourself something what you don't have??? Or be who you are not without faking?

last edited at Aug 14, 2020 10:48PM

Img_0186
joined Jul 18, 2020

I recently followed this author on twitter and she posted a preview of like chapter 42 the other day and it's still all I can think about. Why did I read it???? I skipped 20 chapters and caught a glimpse of the future, and now my reading experience is cursed by this sword of Damocles...

Anyway, sure seems Saeko's got some baggage, huh. I hope she learns to confide in Miwa if nothing else.

Really want you to spoil it for me omg

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, but...This is her twitter, venture in at your own risk. Apparently the new chapter just came out today:

https://twitter.com/_tmfly_

no I was serious lol thank youu

no problem

Img_0186
joined Jul 18, 2020

As for the other discussions going on:

I would be very careful about asserting that Saeko's issues fall in the "trans" category, ...............................................it could seem possible that she's somewhat uncomfortable with her idea of womanhood. Being a tomboy is not a trans issue per se, though, and shouldn't be pathologised haphazardly. At its core it's simply having an atypical personality composition for a woman, not an incompatibility that requires transitioning or therapy to "resolve".

I think problem is, people see transgender persons as someone who must change pronounce, use hormones, etc. and it happens going deeper into trans spectrum, where gender identity needs physical expression through change of body features. But if someone, like Saeko, can't express sexuality through female gender role which should be easy for her as woman, it's also trans issue.

I wouldn't call bottoming the like, intrinsically female sexual gender role. That's just too strict a rule to adhere to. Women are still women even if they hate bottoming, and some women just do hate bottoming. I don't think Saeko is out of the ordinary in that regard at all. In her case I do think her baggage is affecting her sex life to some extent, but I don't think all women who hate bottoming must have trauma around it or anything. Sometimes that's just how it is.

Like, trans men can enjoy bottoming while still being trans men. Cis men can prefer to bottom and still be cis men. I think gender, and gender expression, and sexuality are a lot more complicated than just how you prefer to have sex.

Harumin
joined Jun 1, 2018

Saeko: is driven to tears by the realization that her self-hatred is ruining her relationship

Dynasty-scans comments: Ph.D. thesis on gender studies

Img_0186
joined Jul 18, 2020

Saeko: is driven to tears by the realization that her self-hatred is ruining her relationship

Dynasty-scans comments: Ph.D. thesis on gender studies

I'm a combined philosophy/sociology major, how dare you /s

Finding Jessica Lambert
joined Jun 20, 2020

......................................But if someone, like Saeko, can't express sexuality through female gender role which should be easy for her as woman, it's also trans issue.

I wouldn't call bottoming the like, intrinsically female sexual gender role. That's just too strict a rule to adhere to. Women are still women even if they hate bottoming, and some women just do hate bottoming. I don't think Saeko is out of the ordinary in that regard at all. In her case I do think her baggage is affecting her sex life to some extent, but I don't think all women who hate bottoming must have trauma around it or anything. Sometimes that's just how it is.

Like, trans men can enjoy bottoming while still being trans men. Cis men can prefer to bottom and still be cis men. I think gender, and gender expression, and sexuality are a lot more complicated than just how you prefer to have sex.

I said:
" female gender role" , not bottoming.
In that case she is acting more closely to trans spectrum

And: "Top and bottom are just assumed gender roles of male and female, but reality proves it's not connected to physical parts of a person. It's a question of identity, an abstract category and question of soul and consciousness. How we express ourselves sexually, or identify, it's about our mind and soul.
I observe it through transgender spectrum from that reason (like "metatrans" situation, - lesbian sexuality "transitioned" into form of attraction to females, even if females are usually attracted to males).
I think many people are living on the border, having a blurry line and some mixture of man-woman, expressing it through sexuality, or (gender) identity.
....

Why Saeko must have any issue to feel how she feels?
I don't see any illness when someone is uncomfortable to express a certain gender role through sexuality, like Saeko....."

So, we somehow agree to "Sometimes that's just how it is." as you said, without trauma or anything. And to many other points, just expressing it through different styles...

What I'm trying to explain, I'm observing terms "trans and transition" philosophically, like crossing over from one point to another, diametrically opposed. And I'm applying it on gender observing Saeko case.

Her mentality is more like cis straight male, what makes her behavior like behavior of someone who is in transgender spectrum.

joined Aug 29, 2019

"uncomfortable with her idea of womanhood."- It's enough to observe it through trans spectrum, even if she does not need to change pronounce, use hormones, etc.

All my points are aimed to show from Saeko's example how we can't make clear line "where woman ends and man begins".
I would rather say, tomBOY lesbian is a point where trans spectrum starts without necessity for that person to go further into transition to change physical features and sex.

Definition of transgender (from https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgender )

: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth especially : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth

I don't see how her gender identity differs from the sex she was assigned at birth. Being tomboy requires being a woman and identifying as such (cf. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tomboy ). Being tomboy isn't pathologic in the slightest. It doesn't necessarily cause pain. Traditionally, being trans does (ICD-10 code F64: Gender Identity Disorder, though the APA and the American DSM-5 differ). Tomboy is a description for behavior and personality that aren't typical for a woman, nothing more. Her gender and sex are still both "woman".

Even if we use the later definition of the term, stated for example in the Britannica ( https://www.britannica.com/topic/transgender ), she still doesn't qualify as trans: "In a later and broader sense, it has come to designate persons whose gender identities incorporate behaviours and traits traditionally associated with the opposite sex."
Simply because she still identifies as a woman, tomboy or not.

I think problem is, people see transgender persons as someone who must change pronounce, use hormones, etc. and it happens going deeper into trans spectrum, where gender identity needs physical expression through change of body features. But if someone, like Saeko, can't express sexuality through female gender role which should be easy for her as woman, it's also trans issue.

I do believe, in fact, that it is reasonable to tie transgenderism to the idea that change or transition are called for, in order to alleviate discomfort and distress.
No one's identity equals the stereotype of their gender. If we lower the bar for "being trans" to "somewhat deviating from the traditional gender role", everybody is trans (or at least "on the trans spectrum") and the term lost all meaning.
I also don't see that Saeko can't express sexuality through her feminine gender role, unless you think "being penetrated and bottoming" is "the one and only feminine gender role" in sex. Giving pleasure through manual and oral stimulation is very much an expression of feminine sexuality.

Saeko IS having transgender issues without any needs to change anything.
But society rather loves to call her "mentally ill woman", "not enough a woman", "broken woman"..., than accept it as transgender issue. It's easier to observe it through physical level, than through an abstraction as gender identity.

The most important indicator for a mental disorder is psychologically induced suffering over a longer period of time. I think it's pretty obvious that this is the case here. Even if her being subconsciously trans (remember, her overt identity is still "woman") is the root cause of the problem, she's still suffering and needs help.

So, for that "symptoms" which Saeko is expressing, we must find the way to justify our way of thinking and find a reasons "what's wrong with her". So, she must be a victim of something or someone, that we can have pity on her, or understand her sufferings. If we exalt her situation on gender identity level, we won't comprehend her feelings.

I linguistically don't follow, especially in the last sentence. Thus I can't say if I intellectually or logically follow.

And that's why many rather would call her mentally ill woman, than to understand her as normal and healthy person with trans issues who is in "wrong physical position" passing through wrong circumstances in life.

She is psychologically not a "healthy person". Whether her issues be trans (for which I see insufficient evidence so far) in nature or trauma based, she is not well. We can't properly diagnose her, obviously, but we can assess that something is amiss. Perceived suffering is what differentiates a harmless quirk from a psychological disorder.

Technically, she will always faking in that position, and it's bothering her. She can't make Miwa happy receiving pleasures on that way, and it makes her sad and frustrated- she must lie to her to make her happy. And it's not possible. How can you give of yourself something what you don't have??? Or be who you are not without faking?

People change, we're not set in stone. Even once we've established our identity, or rather identities, we are malleable and will adapt to new input, new experiences and new situations.

EDIT / Addendum: I can't, however, remember any instance in which Saeko was referred to as a girl or a woman (other than maybe girlfriend), especially by herself. Thus it's still possible that she's keeping her transgender identity in the closet and hiding it from Miwa, who's explicitly lesbian and thus might not take kindly to Saeko coming out as a man. Could also explain her issues, would fall in the transgender spectrum, wouldn't necessarily require transition, maybe not even therapy, but it would require finally talking about it...

last edited at Aug 15, 2020 6:21AM

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

I think you deep down too much

joined Aug 29, 2019

I think you deep down too much.

To quote myself from another thread:

Down the rabbit hole we go!

You're probably right. Especially since I wrote most of that right after getting up, before having anything to eat.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I know at least four self-identified tomboys (and a couple other people who present as tomboys, but I don’t know how they identify), and they all differ substantially in terms of sexual orientation and gender identity.

One has said, “If I were growing up these days, maybe I would have thought about transitioning.” The others, in their different ways, seem quite happy where they are.

Using “trans” as the overall concept for any non-gender-conforming presentation seems like it lumps together far too many disparate ideas.

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