Forum › Liberty discussion

dasjadaniels
joined Aug 21, 2015

I feel like Maki is going to leave because she hurt but Liz going to have tears n remind her of that contact

joined Jan 19, 2017

Ugh. It had a good start but I was never a fan of this author's characters. That's not to disparage them, it's understandable why some of their characters would act the way they do, but regardless I am not a fan of manipulative games, love triangles, zero attempts at communication, and cheating.

I know we use “author” as shorthand for a manga creator, but in this case Momono Moto is simply the artist; the writer is first-time manga creator/voice actress Kitta Izumi. I’m sure MM’s influence is substantial, of course, but credit/blame where it goes.

Will keep in mind. Actually the style of the starting story was different enough that I didn't realize Momono Moto contributed until I looked at who the authors were and assumed MM must have contributed to the story cause the above elements were very present.

Except Yuunagi Marbled. Everyone should read Yuunagi Marbled.

Oh, I can also recommend her one-shots. A girl in ultramarine is still one of my favorite yuri stories. But anything in her one-shot collections should probably be okay.

Edit: personally, as someone who does enjoy Momono's trademark schemes and drama, I think Yuunagi Marbled is a bit too bland. But as far as Momono's work goes, it definitely fits OP's taste more than, say, my personal favorite.

Funny enough, I actually did not like Yuunagi Marbled and from what I've read of Ignorance that's available on dynasty, I found there were some cringe, hope-nothing-bad-happens moments but I'm hopeful for it overall. So I guess Momono's works are pretty hit or miss for me and it varies for which ones I personally find enjoyable or don't.

Murcielago_reiko
joined Dec 9, 2019

This chapter just pissed me off...

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

Is it common to see lesbians who are still hung up by their ex-partner?

I mean, that depend on how you break up with your ex. Also that's something that doesn't concern specifically lesbians. Some persons still hang up with her exs if they didn't break up on bad terms.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Funny enough, I actually did not like Yuunagi Marbled

That's fine--I'm sure your life will be unchanged now that you are dead to me.

Popcorn
joined Jun 5, 2015

cecile posted:

Liz exploits Maki, but that seems to be just a part of their slave play. BDSM undertones are all over this story. And it's consensual as far as we can tell.

There's difference between BDSM dynamic/"slave" live and abusive relationship/being a shitty girlfriend/person. I'd argue most of Liz antics fall into latter category and Maki willingness to try BDSM doesn't give her license for doing anything she feels like. Also important thing to remember about contracts like that is that they're not legally binding in any way, shape or form and are more of a way for both parties to set on concrete rules and be able to recheck and revisit it every time they want. If someone actually forces you to sing something that could be taken to court cough 50 shades cough then it should be your biggest red flag to turn back, run and never look back.

cecile posted:

Also, you might wanna give Kodama Naoko a miss too.

Yes. Because she never, writes anything that's good or fluffy (and honestly most of her one-shots are fine). As was said many times. She can write happy, fluffy stories. She just isn't interested in doing so most of the time.

Lilliwyt posted:

Is it common to see lesbians who are still hung up by their ex-partner?

I mean, that depend on how you break up with your ex. Also that's something that doesn't concern specifically lesbians. Some persons still hang up with her exs if they didn't break up on bad terms.

I think Terry means more specifically still not being over your past lover, but yes, it's not something exclusive to lesbians, but more depends on the kind of person you are and how exactly you broke up. Especially if you were deeply in love or together for a long time, it can take a long time to stop caring for other person and you might even never really get over your love for them.

last edited at May 25, 2020 9:40AM

Capturar
joined Jun 27, 2018

Is it common to see lesbians who are still hung up by their ex-partner?

Honestly? Yes.

There's difference between BDSM dynamic/"slave" live and abusive relationship/being a shitty girlfriend/person. I'd argue most of Liz antics fall into latter category and Maki willingness to try BDSM doesn't give her license for doing anything she feels like.

Well there's an important distinction here. The "sleep on the floor to make room for the bear" and "using Maki as a horse" things are arguably just play.

On the other hand, Liz does behave like a spoiled child and often mistreats Maki simply because she can't handle her own emotions. The way she reacts to getting those earrings, for instance, is just childish. So yeah, she can be an idiot at times.

Also important thing to remember about contracts like that is that they're not legally binding in any way, shape or form and are more of a way for both parties to set on concrete rules and be able to recheck and revisit it every time they want. If someone actually forces you to sing something that could be taken to court cough 50 shades cough then it should be your biggest red flag to turn back, run and never look back.

I think we can both agree that Liz's "slave contract" is just a joke. It really doesn't have any legal value whatsoever.

joined Jul 26, 2019

In the end I prefer this direct confrontation instead of having lies or things going on behind...
It can be stressful but it is absolutely necessary that maki is strong and that she is direct towards the senpai but also towards liz, that she makes it clear to her that it is her or senpai...
Because liz has to choose, we can clearly feel that she has more affection for maki but that in front of her senpai she is weak even if she wants to say no to her...
The senpai even if everybody hates her seems to really want to get back seriously with liz, it's not just a whim, she must really regret it. Everybody makes mistakes now I'm on maki's side so ^^
What is positive in this drama is that we won't have to wait 5 chapters for the trio to explain themselves and above all it was necessary for Liz to forget her past, the author goes through this drama...
Finally for me this manga has as biggest defect its sequence, it lacks a few pages per chapter to better develop the story, we pass too quickly on the details and therefore on the feelings of each.

last edited at May 27, 2020 8:55AM

joined Jan 19, 2017

Funny enough, I actually did not like Yuunagi Marbled

That's fine--I'm sure your life will be unchanged now that you are dead to me.

Nooo, so mamy Yagakimi memories we share, how could you Bla.

Also, you might wanna give Kodama Naoko a miss too.

Yes. Because she never, writes anything that's good or fluffy

Ha yeah, I may never read NTR for the rest of my life but she has some other nice works.

On the other hand, Liz does behave like a spoiled child and often mistreats Maki simply because she can't handle her own emotions. The way she reacts to getting those earrings, for instance, is just childish. So yeah, she can be an idiot at times.

Can second that she's an idiot under her cool stage presence. An idiot who verges more and more towards being completely unlikable for me. She makes Maki get out for something she could have had no way of knowing about, slaps her to "share the pain" again for something that Maki has no responsibility for, cheats on her at the drop of a pin, and then doesn't make any sort of commitment despite feeling guilty af. Standing up to her senpai could happen soon. Or if she wants to wholeheartedly aim for the senpai, you know what, go for it. It's going to spectacularly blow up in her face but at least Maki's not being strung along then. Although tbh the real outcome of her leaving Maki would probably be Maki being heart broken and a blob so I doubt the story will go there. Or if Maki's passiveness is taken to the eleventh, maybe she'll try to be happy for Liz.

Well if it wasn't clear Izumi's treatment of Maki is what pisses me off. Though Maki pisses me off too to a lesser degree. The senpai is already a cookie cutter seductress/paper-flat source of drama so whatever.

I just want to see them face consequences for their actions damn it.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

One of the differences between good writing and bad writing is that good writers are able to effectively execute switches in narrative point-of-view/focus (what academics call “focalization”) from one character to another so that readers stay invested (not “sympathetic” necessarily, or hoping that the character achieves their goals—just aligned with the character to a certain extent). YagaKimi and AnoKiss were each in their own way excellent at this, moving readers’ interest from one character to another without abandoning the previous established characterizations.

This story started out being about Maki, and her experience—Liz was the mysterious foil who aroused Maki’s interest, but she was basically a blank slate. Once we started learning about who Liz was as a person, things started breaking down badly, for all the reasons my late friend riverFlower mentions. We don’t have to like her or approve of her actions, but those actions need to be convincingly presented so we don’t just say, “she’s an idiot.” (Which she is.)

Maki, meanwhile, has all but disappeared in terms of her personal growth or self-realization. There’s potentially a good story (I’ve said this before, I know) in a plot where a naive young girl discovers her lesbian sub kink and helps a damaged idol find happiness in a consensual D/S relationship, but this has become the story of thoughtlessly cruel idiot and a passive doormat idiot.

Capturar
joined Jun 27, 2018

There's no such thing as "good writing" and "bad writing", there's just the things you like, and the things you don't. It's a personal thing. So, for instance, you cite AnoKiss as an example of "good writing", to argue that Liberty is bad writing, but honestly, I kind of like Liberty more than AnoKiss (by a smidge, but yes).

It's the same discussion that people have been carrying on over and over for decades over stuff like Harry Potter, or pop music. If you like an artwork, it's "good" by your standards, while it might be "bad" for someone else. You can't categorize things as objectively good or bad based on arbitrary criteria, that's kinda conceited.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

There's no such thing as "good writing" and "bad writing", there's just the things you like, and the things you don't.

Ah, yes, complete subjectivism—the literary theory of a child, or a narcissist.

Let’s call it “artistic competence,” then. There’s such a thing as technical skill in crafting art that’s separate from an individual’s enjoyment. Coherent structure, plausible and consistent characterization, execution of scene transitions, etc. don’t guarantee that a person will “like” a work, but they exist nonetheless.

And certainly, sloppy pieces of shit may supply someone’s dream ship, and that’s all that matters to them, or one scene strikes an emotional chord based on some random childhood memory while the rest of the plot makes no sense, or a character is just so darned cute that inconsistencies of characterization go unnoticed.

But it’s not an accident or random subjectivity that certain works consistently are perceived as being more effectively executed than others.

Capturar
joined Jun 27, 2018

There's no such thing as "good writing" and "bad writing", there's just the things you like, and the things you don't.

Ah, yes, complete subjectivism—the literary theory of a child, or a narcissist.

Let’s call it “artistic competence,” then. There’s such a thing as technical skill in crafting art that’s separate from an individual’s enjoyment. Coherent structure, plausible and consistent characterization, execution of scene transitions, etc. don’t guarantee that a person will “like” a work, but they exist nonetheless.

And certainly, sloppy pieces of shit may supply someone’s dream ship, and that’s all that matters to them, or one scene strikes an emotional chord based on some random childhood memory while the rest of the plot makes no sense, or a character is just so darned cute that inconsistencies of characterization go unnoticed.

One: "Technical skill" is a straw man in this discussion, this was about whether things can be intrinsically called good and bad, not skillfully executed.

Two: Skill itself is arbitrary. "Skillful execution" even more so. Those are nothing more than social conventions. Call that complete subjectivism or whatever, the point is that you're still trying to systematize things into good and bad based on arbitrary values. Which is foolish.

But it’s not an accident or random subjectivity that certain works consistently are perceived as being more effectively executed than others.

I thought we'd got over that debate way back when Duchamp started calling his ready-mades art.

And seriously, that argument is as flawed as can be. There's a million real-world examples to show this, and unless you only surround yourself with like-minded people, you're gonna have to realize that this effective execution you speak of is a fallacy.

last edited at May 25, 2020 8:24PM

Capturar
joined Jun 27, 2018

And it's pretty funny that you're calling me a narcissist while trying to argue that you can objectively qualify things as good or bad based on... your own set of criteria, which isn't necessarily shared by others, even if you try to frame it as "artistic competence".

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

There's no such thing as "good writing" and "bad writing", there's just the things you like, and the things you don't.

Ah, yes, complete subjectivism—the literary theory of a child, or a narcissist.

Let’s call it “artistic competence,” then. There’s such a thing as technical skill in crafting art that’s separate from an individual’s enjoyment. Coherent structure, plausible and consistent characterization, execution of scene transitions, etc. don’t guarantee that a person will “like” a work, but they exist nonetheless.

And certainly, sloppy pieces of shit may supply someone’s dream ship, and that’s all that matters to them, or one scene strikes an emotional chord based on some random childhood memory while the rest of the plot makes no sense, or a character is just so darned cute that inconsistencies of characterization go unnoticed.

One: "Technical skill" is a straw man in this discussion, this was about whether things can be intrinsically called good and bad, not skillfully executed.

Two: Skill itself is arbitrary. "Skillful execution" even more so. Those are nothing more than social conventions. Call that complete subjectivism or whatever, the point is that you're still trying to systematize things into good and bad based on arbitrary values. Which is foolish.

But it’s not an accident or random subjectivity that certain works consistently are perceived as being more effectively executed than others.

I thought we'd got over that debate way back when Duchamp started calling his ready-mades art.

And seriously, that argument is as flawed as can be. There's a million real-world examples to show this, and unless you only surround yourself with like-minded people, you're gonna have to realize that this effective execution you speak of is a fallacy.

This is gibberish--a mish-mash of semi-Platonism (your hallucination that I'm talking about "objectivity") and half-digested post-modernism. The juvenile idea that "social conventions" aren't "real" indicates that we have nothing further to say to each other on this subject.

last edited at May 25, 2020 8:32PM

Capturar
joined Jun 27, 2018

Gibberish? Well, I'm not the one who just used the term "half-digested post-modernism", which means literally nothing. But whatever dude.

2641afdd-9dc4-4327-a1c3-a5b558c33522
joined Mar 12, 2014

I’ve reread this manga and it jumps all over the place! Maki starts out in this video game company and one day signs a jokey slave contract? Sure ok! And she turned from this unsure butch to being some friggin suffocating doormat who’s only aim is to make Liz happy. “I worked on all this food but I’ll remake it all if there’s one thing you don’t like!” get some self RESPECT Maki

Video game company has been completely forgotten about as now Liz has some other random deal with an old senpai, I think the only thing that I wasnt expecting was her to full on cheat, but maybe it’ll make Maki grow herself a backbone. And Liz is changing so much I’m getting friggin whiplash. They should’ve just stuck to the original story idea as that was pretty interesting as it was

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I’ve reread this manga and it jumps all over the place! Maki starts out in this video game company and one day signs a jokey slave contract? Sure ok! And she turned from this unsure butch to being some friggin suffocating doormat who’s only aim is to make Liz happy. “I worked on all this food but I’ll remake it all if there’s one thing you don’t like!” get some self RESPECT Maki

Video game company has been completely forgotten about as now Liz has some other random deal with an old senpai, I think the only thing that I wasnt expecting was her to full on cheat, but maybe it’ll make Maki grow herself a backbone. And Liz is changing so much I’m getting friggin whiplash. They should’ve just stuck to the original story idea as that was pretty interesting as it was

The exact point I was making: bad writing.

Avatar
joined May 20, 2013

What I have in mind: Confrontation with Maki hitting senpai (as if), Liz protecting her, and Maki leaving as a result. Then while talking about how things will go back to how they were, senpai brings up the matter of her husband. Just to twist the knife.

1461894977557
joined Jun 12, 2015

hey should’ve just stuck to the original story idea

And it's still there. This is a story about Liz. Or more precisely, about Kita Izumi and her fantasies.

joined Apr 17, 2013

There's no such thing as "good writing" and "bad writing", there's just the things you like, and the things you don't.

Ah, yes, complete subjectivism—the literary theory of a child, or a narcissist.

Let’s call it “artistic competence,” then. There’s such a thing as technical skill in crafting art that’s separate from an individual’s enjoyment. Coherent structure, plausible and consistent characterization, execution of scene transitions, etc. don’t guarantee that a person will “like” a work, but they exist nonetheless.

And certainly, sloppy pieces of shit may supply someone’s dream ship, and that’s all that matters to them, or one scene strikes an emotional chord based on some random childhood memory while the rest of the plot makes no sense, or a character is just so darned cute that inconsistencies of characterization go unnoticed.

One: "Technical skill" is a straw man in this discussion, this was about whether things can be intrinsically called good and bad, not skillfully executed.

Two: Skill itself is arbitrary. "Skillful execution" even more so. Those are nothing more than social conventions. Call that complete subjectivism or whatever, the point is that you're still trying to systematize things into good and bad based on arbitrary values. Which is foolish.

But it’s not an accident or random subjectivity that certain works consistently are perceived as being more effectively executed than others.

I thought we'd got over that debate way back when Duchamp started calling his ready-mades art.

And seriously, that argument is as flawed as can be. There's a million real-world examples to show this, and unless you only surround yourself with like-minded people, you're gonna have to realize that this effective execution you speak of is a fallacy.

This is gibberish--a mish-mash of semi-Platonism (your hallucination that I'm talking about "objectivity") and half-digested post-modernism. The juvenile idea that "social conventions" aren't "real" indicates that we have nothing further to say to each other on this subject.

I did not write comments for a long time but this post made me write a serious comment first time ever. As a person who has devoted my life to education - PhD in one of the top schools in the US - I will make a comment about subjectivity from the perspective of science. A scientific fact is observable for all people and using experiments you can get the same result again and again over time. Only those ideas can be claimed as absolute true, and neither your fancy language nor your overly offensive comments cannot make the point you claim true. If and only if there is one contradicting case which is let's say my opinion asserting "this is a good writing", your definition of good writing cannot be universally correct and becomes subjective. I believe the definition of your good writing is false and further I propose a discrete claim that no one can define a criteria for all good writings accepted by everyone. If you can come up with a scientific, namely mathematical proof falsifying this, I would appreciate it and invite you to write a research paper on this ground breaking fact you have newly found. Else, your claims would not be perceived as absolute true by the community that is using science and objectivity as their primary tool. Meaning that you are just bullshitting according to some people and there is no way that you can claim otherwise. Speaking of narcism, you should check some psychology books or even wikipedia to learn more. I do not want to offend anyone but Cecile had some serious points in this discussion worth talking about science more.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I did not write comments for a long time but this post made me write a serious comment first time ever. As a person who has devoted my life to education - PhD in one of the top schools in the US - I will make a comment about subjectivity from the perspective of science. A scientific fact is observable for all people and using experiments you can get the same result again and again over time. Only those ideas can be claimed as absolute true, and neither your fancy language nor your overly offensive comments cannot make the point you claim true. If and only if there is one contradicting case which is let's say my opinion asserting "this is a good writing", your definition of good writing cannot be universally correct and becomes subjective. I believe the definition of your good writing is false and further I propose a discrete claim that no one can define a criteria for all good writings accepted by everyone. If you can come up with a scientific, namely mathematical proof falsifying this, I would appreciate it and invite you to write a research paper on this ground breaking fact you have newly found. Else, your claims would not be perceived as absolute true by the community that is using science and objectivity as their primary tool. Meaning that you are just bullshitting according to some people and there is no way that you can claim otherwise. Speaking of narcism, you should check some psychology books or even wikipedia to learn more. I do not want to offend anyone but Cecile had some serious points in this discussion worth talking about science more.

You know a lot about science, supposedly, but you know nothing about literary theory. This puerile rigid binary between “objectivity” and “subjectivity” is irrelevant to the discussion. I have spent my life studying literature and narrative art, and this ponderous intervention of yours is typical of scientists who venture into an area where some terms are apparently similar to those of science but are deployed quite differently.

You and cecile have effectively refuted the claim that standards of craft in narrative are scientifically objective, a preposterous claim I never made, and one that would be perceived as “not even wrong” by people who know what they’re talking about.

We have ventured far afield from this series and its barely competent writing, so I’m done with this.

EDIT: Speaking of “narcissism,” scientists may know its definition, but people in the humanities know how to spell it.

last edited at May 27, 2020 7:33AM

joined Oct 25, 2014

Literary writing has a well-established and defined know-how. So well-established that it's subject of university studies and it's the basis for 99% of the stories you read and watch. And it exists for a reason. It's not just "you should write this way because it's right" kind of thing. There's a lot of theoretical and practical knowledge that have been accumulated for hundred of years as to why literally writing works this way.

Well, even crap like Liberty has its sympathizers, but there's no doubt it's deeply flawed, writing-wise.

last edited at May 28, 2020 5:49PM

7ee8f4a1-e5d8-45b2-9cbc-58f7e7d8b420
joined Jan 31, 2016

I’m so confused with this manga... What’s the point of all the unnecessary drama with the ex. And the slave contact?? What??? So the main characters aren’t even technically together? I’m so lost..

joined Jun 18, 2020

this started really well... then i just got super lost

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