Forum › A Room For Two discussion

Z3
joined Aug 20, 2016

On-panel fisting or it's just Subtext 4 evah!

Or just kissing each other on the lips, or calling each other girlfriend/couple without walking it back, or... there's a rather wide middle ground.

Or at least show affection (Kasumi) for the other person..

Z3
joined Aug 20, 2016

By Sakurako's own words "We're not exactly dating" Sakurako and Kasumi are a quasi-couple. A proto-couple if you will. It's analogous to a protostar. The feelings are swirling in and the pressure at the core is building. However critical mass has not been achieved, in order to ignite a full fledged relationship. That won't happen until Kasumi has her all in moment. That's the moment where the person realises they are willing to make a comment to their relationship. Kasumi seems to be close to making the leap, but her musings on the park bench told me she isn't quite there yet.

These gals have been not just living together but making their life plans around each other for, what, five-six years in-universe and give no hints of stopping any time soon (read as "before the grave"). But because they have failed to conveniently label themselves to your satisfaction they're still apparently not a "real" couple or in "a full fledged relationship."

okay.jpg

Now excuse me while I go find my eyes, I think they rolled over to the kitchen.

Why do people get so damn insulting when other people don't agree with their opinion. Like I'm obviously some idiot because I don't share your interpratation.
My point isn't just a labeling issue.(which you conviently ignored when you went on your little pc anti label rant) I don't think Kasumi has fully commited to Sakurako yet. For most of the series I've felt that Kasumi has pretty much just gone with Sakurako's flow. Letting Sakurako handle life's day to day minutiae, so she could indulge her lazy streak. Pretty much treating her relationship with Sakurako as a marriage of covience. Only recently have I've seen any actual though into the actual nature of her future with Sakurako.

I can't agree more with what you said, people here seems to think that one expects them to talk about their relationship just because one wants to read the word girlfriend and that's it, if it was that then you can argue the kiss they had has the same effect, it's not like that, what I think most of the people wants is confirmation that Kasumi is with Sakurako not just because is the easiest way of living but because she really wants to be with Sakurako. In some chapters Kasumi calls things Sakurako does "creepy" and seems to be really bothered by some of her actions but seems to put up with it just because Sakurako takes care of almost everything in their lives.

This.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

It’s hard to “agree to disagree” with someone’s opinion when that opinion depends on:

  • Ignoring or hand-waving away multiple examples of specific evidence from the text itself.

  • Ignoring or dismissing what the text itself says about labels on relationships or about how people show affection for each other.

  • Reading the character of Kasumi as being diametrically opposite to what the text shows she’s like (i.e., arguing that, in contrast to everything we know about her, that she would somehow be willing to put up with Sakurako’s unwelcome and unreciprocated affection out of her own laziness and greed).

EDIT: And Kasumi calls some of the things Sakurako does “creepy” or “weird” because of the things Sakurako does are creepy or weird. But by no means all of them.

last edited at Nov 8, 2020 2:36PM

White%20rose%20index
joined Aug 16, 2018

It’s hard to “agree to disagree” with someone’s opinion when that opinion depends on:

  • Ignoring or hand-waving away multiple examples of specific evidence from the text itself.

  • Ignoring or dismissing what the text itself says about labels on relationships or about how people show affection for each other.

One of these days, when I have the time, I'm gonna compile a list of all the times one of them, Kasumi or Sakurako, said something that can only be explained in a context where they are lovers. Not chaste friends, or platonic girlfriends, or sister vestals: lovers. Like when Kasumi suggests she's ok with making out as long as it's not in public. Or Sakurako asks Kasumi to sit on her face. Or the many times Sakurako wonders if Kasumi will make her pregnant, and Kasumi tsukkomi-replies that it doesn't work like that. Oh, speaking of which:

Whee! They keep coming! :P

Butt
joined Sep 26, 2020

Science Babies

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

Well, Sakurako did mention that possibility before (I forgot which chapter was it tho)

Avarta
joined Sep 11, 2016

They clearly a marriage couple, and like what Sakurako said sometimes the word I love you doesn't need to be said for you to know if this is love or not.

joined Dec 3, 2018

However, a lot of the complaints seem to want the series to turn into something else entirely

Yeah, some people wanted yuri but instead got 67 chapters of the most boring version of gal pals ever.

46-75
joined Jun 25, 2019

However, a lot of the complaints seem to want the series to turn into something else entirely

Yeah, some people wanted yuri but instead got 67 chapters of the most boring version of gal pals ever.

Something something married couple

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Fear not--the on-panel fisting can only be a couple of chapters away.

joined Dec 3, 2018

Fear not--the on-panel fisting can only be a couple of chapters away.

Pretty quick turn of events considering that after 67 chapters they are still making excuses not to even say that they are even a couple.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Fear not--the on-panel fisting can only be a couple of chapters away.

Pretty quick turn of events considering that after 67 chapters they are still making excuses not to even say that they are even a couple.

Look, some people find this series boring and some others find it funny and charming, but after a few dozen (maybe scores, maybe hundreds) of posts claiming "This doesn't fit my personal definition of 'yuri'," the only response left is,

Duly noted--so fucking what?

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

I really love it when Blastaar gets sassy.

Tragedian%202
joined Oct 1, 2020

Look, some people find this series boring and some others find it funny and charming, but after a few dozen (maybe scores, maybe hundreds) of posts claiming "This doesn't fit my personal definition of 'yuri'," the only response left is,

Duly noted--so fucking what?

This forum's interesting that way. On Reddit, for instance, you have tons of salty people complaining about stories not fitting their expectations in discussions for pilot chapters or episodes, but the vitriol peters out by around the fourth or fifth episode, or the tenth chapter, or what have you (and you'd be especially hard-pressed to find criticisms of popular shows on their respective subreddits). The idea is that people who find that a series isn't for them choose to leave after a certain point, because consuming entertainment that doesn't entertain you is rather counterproductive, unless you're getting paid to write a critique or have legitimate criticisms about why something is problematic (these criticisms being generally more substantial than Where muh tribbing?). On Dynasty however, you've got people on the tenth, or twentieth, or hundredth page of a discussion bringing up the same criticisms that you'd see on the first page.

This might partly be because we don't really have chapter discussions here, so someone reading chapter one of a series in 2020 can't complain about it on a 2017 discussion thread. It's also fair for people to go This is my first time reading this, and my impressions are x, y and z. But even when you filter all that stuff out, you come across folks that sound like they've been keeping up with a series for dozens of chapters and still want it to be something that it never promised, or even wanted to be. I guess you could chalk it down to something like stupidity or denial or instigation or hate-reading, but it still doesn't seem to explain this level of dedication to ranting about something that doesn't give you any rewards. It's like making up a narrative about an abusive relationship with a celebrity on the Internet who doesn't even know who you are.

Ultimately, I guess that some series, by virtue of not 'progressing', become perpetual motion machines.

last edited at Nov 13, 2020 3:29PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Ultimately, I guess that some series, by virtue of not 'progressing', become perpetual motion machines.

I agree with your whole long post, but this raises the question of (although I know quite well what the strict-constructionist purists are looking for) what exactly is “progress” in a series where the protagonists are together for life basically from the first chapter and who form the model yuri couple for all the budding lesbians around them.

joined Jan 14, 2020

"I guess you could chalk it down to something like stupidity or denial or instigation or hate-reading,"

Or to enjoying the series overall, while still seeing problems in it, in this case an annoying ambiguity or coyness. People can enjoy things without finding them perfect.

OrangePekoe Admin
Animesher.com_tamako-market-midori-tokiwa-deviantart-950416a
joined Mar 20, 2013

(and you'd be especially hard-pressed to find criticisms of popular shows on their respective subreddits).

There's also a tendency for people with negative views in general to be driven out, whether by active moderation or other extremely defensive users. Which brings me to...

The idea is that people who find that a series isn't for them choose to leave after a certain point, because consuming entertainment that doesn't entertain you is rather counterproductive, unless you're getting paid to write a critique or have legitimate criticisms about why something is problematic

While it's a nice idea and broadly true, I think if you look hard enough you'll find active thought leaders with reasonably substantial followings in just about any significant fandom. I recently watched She-Ra and found it to be a satisfying if imperfect show. While gleaning around for content, YouTube was sure to recommend me multiple accounts that have made - and are still making, for a show that ended in May - dozens of videos worth of negative content for it. The type that makes you stop and wonder, why is this person investing their time in a show that's clearly not for them, and why is their audience doing the same? RWBY and Korra also seem to be good examples of this from the outside.

I'd also mention that in cases around this forum, the repetitive negative comments typically echo broader community discussions about the "true" definitions of Yuri, the role of males in yuri stories, or "hot topics of 2020" like bisexuality.

All of which is of course not to take away from your structural analysis of how Dynasty's setup may incentivise some of this behaviour.

"I guess you could chalk it down to something like stupidity or denial or instigation or hate-reading,"

Or to enjoying the series overall, while still seeing problems in it, in this case an annoying ambiguity or coyness. People can enjoy things without finding them perfect.

While generally possible and true, there's quite a difference between what you're suggesting and what Gridman is doing, which is more or less low-effort trolling. This is the fifth time he's returned to this particular thread to make this exact point in a dismissive and nonconstructive manner.

last edited at Nov 13, 2020 10:05PM

Tragedian%202
joined Oct 1, 2020

Ultimately, I guess that some series, by virtue of not 'progressing', become perpetual motion machines.

I agree with your whole long post, but this raises the question of (although I know quite well what the strict-constructionist purists are looking for) what exactly is “progress” in a series where the protagonists are together for life basically from the first chapter and who form the model yuri couple for all the budding lesbians around them.

I mean, your standard 'progresion purist' probably has a mindset that goes like this:

Chapter 1: If they don't confess, the manga's a mess.
Chapter 2: If they don't kiss, the manga's a miss.
Chapter 3: If they don't French, my fists will clench.
Chapter 4: If they don't get to second base, they're not worthy of my grace.
Chapter 5: If there's no cunnilingus, the author's just conning us.
Chapter 6: If they don't trib, I shall return to the comments and crib.
Chapter 7: If they don't cohabitate, I shall spew forth torrents of hate.
Chapter 8: If I don't see a wedding, there shall be a beheading.

On a more serious note, I'd say the desire for marked, clear 'progress' comes from a tendency to view relationships like videogames or TV shows, where there's always something better or new waiting as you get further in. The entertainment industry is tasked with fetishing and glorifying romance for vast numbers of consumers, the majority of which have not entered into romantic relationships by themselves. Portraying romance in an understated, pragmatic, subtle way wouldn't lend itself well to a seasonal entertainment system or a three-act story structure, even if real-world romance is rarely so linear.

Audiences want to see melodrama, overflowing emotions, dramatic confessions at airports right before planes take off, wonderful sex between beautiful people, and the longer they're invested in a relationship, the more dividends they expect to gain from it. This, I'd argue, is primarily a Western phenomenon, since the SOL genre does not exist in Western television, or is at least not nearly as popular as it is in Japan. Most of the readers on this English forum are presumably Western, and have thus grown up consuming stuff churned out by Hollywood.

These ideas, which initially began as entertainment, start to be taken as common knowledge and become actively aspirational, so if you're not rolling in romantic partners and having orgies by the time you're twenty-five, you've basically failed in life by the standards of popular entertainment. The rise of incels in America, for instance, could be directly linked to the increasing sexualisation of American culture and media, which idealizes sex as an activity between young and beautiful people, leading those with inferior self-images to construct a warped world-view. However, if all it took to have the ideal relationship was to be conventionally attractive, then the love lives of celebrities wouldn't be anywhere near as messy as they are.

Coming back to this manga, I'd say that these progression-purisits are people who fundamentally seem to engage with fictional romance as an investment-reward game, and want to receive repeated 'signs' that the couple's life is better than it used to be in order to justify consuming more of the manga. They think that there must always be something more, something further up the ladder, like those weird rituals about wedding anniversaries that ask you to buy gifts of silver and gold and platinum to mark the progress of matrimony.

But this mindset fails to take into account the joys of stability, of domesticity, and of simply coexisting. Life isn't a rat race to the next level of romance or sex, it's a swirling, insane whirlwind of unpredictable bullshit that's likely to either crush you with monotony or tear you out of your comfort zone on a dime. In such a world, there's an incredible, heartwarming appeal to stories about stability and peace, about subtle affection that doesn't need to be over-the-top or escalating to justify it's existence. It's about people who don't need to explicitly say that they love each other, just as normal people might not thank their sidewalks for not collapsing into a yawning abyss, because that's to be expected. That's the golden, glittering status quo.

I'm not saying that such stories are realistic- having your first love transform into a lifelong romance is every bit as farfetched as cultivating a harem at the age of sixteen. But to audiences, particularly in Japan, that got shunted out of soul-crushingly competitive school lives and into a mind-numbingly oppressive job environment, these series provide the sustenance of a rose-tinted adolesence that they never got to enjoy, an adolesence where they never had to prove anything, but could just be themselves, sequestered from spacetime in a cozy corner of the world.

There's no need for filling out a mandated sex quota to keep the spark going, no need to do something unpredictable or new, no need to introduce scandalous and sensational twists, because for the target demographic of such stories, tomorrow being the exact same as yesterday isn't a tragedy- it's the most wonderful promise you could ever make. And unless people take that into account, they probably won't be able to enjoy A Room for Two.

joined Dec 3, 2018

Look, some people find this series boring and some others find it funny and charming, but after a few dozen (maybe scores, maybe hundreds) of posts claiming "This doesn't fit my personal definition of 'yuri'," the only response left is,

Duly noted--so fucking what?

For every person like you who dresses up a strawman to argue with there are people like me who are displeased with every release from this series and will leave their comments. Get over it, everyone doesnt have to like what you like or have to agree with your own personal definition of 'yuri'.

You spend days writing essays as to why 'My Unrequited Love' is trash but once someone criticizes anything you like it must be because they are trolling. Get over yourself

And @OrangePekoe, I leave short criticizing comments is because whenever I try to start a long drawn out conversation your moderators always come in and tell me its too much. So which do you prefer? Pages of analysis and criticisms going through every panel OR short and concise '"troll" comments?

Fact is that this manga has gone out of its way to be as boring as possible while checking every box making sure that you know that the main "couple" will never actually do anything beyond gals being pals. Absolutely zero progression in their relationship in 67 chapters, sorry that I don't find it enjoyable and leave a small comment once every six months to voice my displeasure.

last edited at Nov 14, 2020 3:14AM

46-75
joined Jun 25, 2019

Absolutely zero progression in their relationship in 67 chapters

Are we reading the same manga ? Read the first volumes and tell me it's the same thing. Like no, i can understand people who find it boring or are frustrated because they want 10chapters of them having sex on screen to confirm they love eachother, even though they stated multipled times they don't need/want to confirm their relation.(like seriously did you read the manga ?)and don't really want to say thatthey love each other out loud but saying there is no progression ? Like what ? Just because they don't confirm their relation out loud doesn't mean there is no progression.

joined Jul 26, 2016

Get over it, everyone doesnt have to like what you like or have to agree with your own personal definition of 'yuri'.

The irony and myopia here is dense enough to be used as structural material.

Fact is that this manga has gone out of its way to be as boring as possible while checking every box making sure that you know that the main "couple" will never actually do anything beyond gals being pals. Absolutely zero progression in their relationship in 67 chapters, sorry that I don't find it enjoyable and leave a small comment once every six months to voice my displeasure.

Well I think that rather nixes the "enjoying despite imperfections" angle proposed earlier and rather supports the "hate-reading" thesis...

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Look, some people find this series boring and some others find it funny and charming, but after a few dozen (maybe scores, maybe hundreds) of posts claiming "This doesn't fit my personal definition of 'yuri'," the only response left is,

Duly noted--so fucking what?

For every person like you who dresses up a strawman to argue with there are people like me who are displeased with every release from this series and will leave their comments. Get over it, everyone doesnt have to like what you like or have to agree with your own personal definition of 'yuri'.

You spend days writing essays as to why 'My Unrequited Love' is trash but once someone criticizes anything you like it must be because they are trolling. Get over yourself

Yeah, thanks for supplying a model for what we’re describing here—my *Unrequited Love” remarks were substantive (whether you agreed with them or not) and specific arguments about a series that started out with potential but fell apart, in discussions with people who had very different readings of the story.

As you say explicitly, you hate-read this so you can tell us “this isn’t yuri” every time a new chapter comes out.

I say again: duly noted—so fucking what?

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

The whole going in circles of this debate makes a few short seconds from a music-wise cool, but lyrics-wise shit song from a Eurovision a few years ago (and I distinctly remember that song being the one of Slovenia's contestant) loop in my head.

OrangePekoe Admin
Animesher.com_tamako-market-midori-tokiwa-deviantart-950416a
joined Mar 20, 2013

which do you prefer? Pages of analysis and criticisms going through every panel OR short and concise '"troll" comments?

Frankly, I'm not convinced you've made many posts I'd prefer existed in the first place. There's quite a leap between productive conversation and your general behaviour on these forums. Rather than attempt to engage in discussion, your posts make singular, matter-of-fact statements which serve little purpose in advancing discourse. Many are filled with bile, directed at artists or other users. Content aside, we know the effects your posts have on this thread, and that of Nettaigyo. They serve to reinforce old, tired arguments, and pull regulars down the same ground they've already tread. I'm unceasingly bewildered by those who pay them any time of day. I'll forgive those users, given that they actually attempt to discuss a given story on its own merits otherwise.

You've mentioned in the past that criticism drives more discussion than praise, but it seems your preoccupation with driving discussion comes at the expense of quality discourse. Your words could meanwhile span hundreds of pages with razor-like precision, if they cover these same topics they would be just as tired and uninteresting. Given that the content of your current posts amount to personal pet peeves repeated ad nauseam, I don't see length making the situation any better.

I leave short criticizing comments is because whenever I try to start a long drawn out conversation your moderators always come in and tell me its too much.

As far as I can tell you've been reprimanded once, during a personal spat in which your posts averaged about two lines. You're welcome to correct me if this is a misconception.

joined Apr 6, 2018

simps who are stuck in the hololive rabbit hole!

just wanted to share that Seri reminded me of Lamy and Shouko reminded me of Botan.

*Seri is that ojou-sama underclassman
*Shouko is her^ roommate, the cool one.

just wondering if you felt that too

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