Forum › Posts by Kirin
Fucking primogeniture laws, man.
Is that what people mean when they say, "It's okay as long as only the tip goes in?"
I love Konbu's thought process when it comes to writing stuff like this and SekaOppa: I wanna talk about love and I wanna talk about sex. Most people put one first and another later, but I wanna talk about them at the same time. Oh, but I don't actually want my characters to date, 'cuz that's the endgame. Oh, I know! Let's give them the thirst of a chick who's been in horny jail for three centuries, and the emotional maturity of a maiden in a castle tower! Best of both worlds, bitches. Btw, how do you spell 'cunnilingus' in the language of friendship?
I wasn't talking about manga, but about the perception Japanese people at large, even outside of media, have of lesbians. See note at the bottom here: https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/liberty_ch15#5
It's not specific to manga. It's a more general stereotype.
I mean, people who straight-up assume that lesbians are horny and sleep around would generally behave in two ways. They would a) look down on lesbians and not read media about them at all, in which case series like these would be irrelevant, or b) see this as erotic and actively seek out manga featuring lots of hot lesbian sex, like this one, which, as I've pointed out, is a fairly progressive depiction of lesbians exercising sexual agency and indulging in their desires, outside of this chapter (heck, the endgame is our protag reconnecting with the girl she had a crush on). Either way, I don't see lesbians as a whole suffering because of Asumi-chan is Interested in Lesbian Brothels!.
If anything, I'm pretty sure the main demographic for this manga are lesbians who want to read something funny, sexy and heartwarming instead of Blushing Schoolgirl Story #991, so while you claim that 'lesbians are horny and sleep around' is a stereotype, the vast majority of lesbians who actually read it would see it as a USP (if nothing else, the folks on this forum seem to like it). So from a representational perspective, it captures a side of lesbians that's not often covered with the appropriate nuance and empathy, and from an entertainment perspective, it establishes an identity and caters to a market. It'd be different if the manga stated that all lesbians love to cheat and sleep around, because that would be malicious- in this case, the horniness is constrained to an escort service and the women who peruse it (possibly because they can't easily have relationships in ordinary society). It'd be weirder if they didn't have tons of sex.
Lastly, the example you've cited states that the Japanese see lesbians as people who often cheat. Putting aside the accuracy of this claim or the sources that the scanlators used to come up with it, I'd like to point out that this manga doesn't even feature any cheating or infidelity. I get criticizing the non-con part, because that made me wince a bit as well, but the rest of your criticisms are misplaced at best and actively unrelated to the topic at worst.
idk this is getting pretty gay for a non-yuri manga
This is a non-yuri manga?
Author's drawn some pretty clear yuri stuff before, and this doesn't seem to break from tradition. Probably just a case of the 'mahou shoujo' aspect taking precedence over the 'yuri' one in terms of advertising and tagging. Although I'd personally like to think that magical girls are so gay that it's a given that any series about them would feature lesbians.
^ Based on 7-8 name documentation websites that I looked at, Aki is almost exclusively used for girls in Japan. It's also a Finnish name for boys, though I don't think that's relevant here. There are unisex names that go for both genders, but Aki isn't one of them. Only way a guy would be referred to as Aki was if you were shortening part of his original name, like Akira or Akito, or perhaps a surname like Akiyama (or if the guy in question had parents with a weird naming sense, or simply took on the name despite knowing that it'd draw odd looks). And again, with the yuri tag + character design, you'd be hard-pressed to miss the character's gender. Tons of small clues therefore coalesce into a clear picture.
It plays a little bit too much into the Japanese tropes that lesbians are somehow horny all the time and are sleeping around.
I'd warrant that 90% of lesbians in Japanese media are schoolgirls in denial about their own feelings who couldn't make a confession if their lives depended on it, and the remaining 10% are depressed OLs who fester in heteronormative workplaces and either cry themselves to sleep at night or frantically conceal their one existing relationship. There are barely any manga that demonstrate lesbians hitting up bars, sleeping around with random chicks and flouncing off in the morning with zero angst about the road not taken. If anything, Japanese media seems intent on veiling lesbians behind tons and tons of ambiguity, or fetishizing them for straight men. This manga is one of the few works I've seen that actually represents lesbians enjoying active sex lives instead of waiting for that one perfect relationship that lasts throughout adulthood and old age. As skeevy as the implications in this chapter might've been, I'd argue that this series as a whole is an important work, because it shows intelligent, adult women enjoying sex without being actively pornographic. It's not pure yuri (ugh) or a tribbing exhibition for dudes, but a work that puts women foremost and emphasizes their freedom to indulge in casual sexual pleasure. I'd say we need tons more stuff like this and Shuninta's I Wouldn't Mind Being Loved.
And you do realize that not everyone is a Japanese culture aficionado?
Your point was that it wasn't clear that she was a 'she-wolf'. I pointed out that her name is female. Manga, as I'm sure you're aware, is written primarily for a Japanese audience, not a bunch of people reading scanlations on a website. The intended audience would've gotten it, hence removing the need for the author to 'clarify' or 'prove' her femininity. You could ask why the scanlators didn't put in a TL note explaining that the name was female, but maybe they assumed that most people would look at the character design and the 'yuri' tag and have the presence of mind to get it. Clearly, they thought wrong.
This story's focus isn't on the fact that they are lesbians, but that they are sheep and wolf.
And the fact that they are both female looks like a gimmick to make it look like less "predatory" (it's a wolf and a sheep after all). If it was a male, it would be less cute and more rapey.
Not exactly- the story seems to be using the assertiveness of the sheep versus the hesitance of the wolf for comedy, precisely to invert the predatory dynamic. It's even stated that wolves in-universe are treated with suspicion, and that our wolf-lead has something of a complex about it. Your argument would make sense if the wolf was dominant and aggressive and if the sheep was passive and afraid, but their actual dynamic is more-or-less the opposite. Using the appeal of lesbians to dress up problematic content is an issue with some manga, but it doesn't apply here, because the dynamic is largely positive and the point of the story is to break the assertive butch vs. submissive femme stereotype, using animal races for moe + allegory. So the gayness is not a 'gimmick' or a 'disguise'- it's part of the central appeal, both on the part of the author, who probably wanted to draw cute kemonomimi lesbians, and on the part of the readers, who appreciate them.
It's nice that lesbianism seems to be a normal occurrence in that world (are there even males?), but then, does it mean it's a yuri story, or just a story?
This is... a surprisingly good point, actually. However, the story's probably gonna focus on the central romance and the wolf vs. sheep issue, so the all-female cast is probably just gonna be something that readers take for granted instead of an attempt to explore the dynamics of lesbian relationships in an anthropomorphized society (though if it gives us non-science interspecies babies, it'll be totally worth it).
As for the question of whether it's yuri, I'd say that it is, since yuri is a marketing, demographic, genre-based and subcultural term rather than an in-universe phenomenon. Most characters in zombie fiction don't ever use the word 'zombie', but a movie about fighting an infestation of shambolic monsters that look like walking corpses would still be marketed and consumed as a zombie movie, regardless of whether they're powered by voodoo, bioweapons or a fungal infection. The term 'yuri' isn't something that people in real relationships use to describe themselves (imagine one guy going, "Oh, I'm yaoi for my boyfriend!" and you'll realize how absurd it sounds), but explicitly something that readers and consumers of fiction use to label and classify certain types of media.
@ Nya-chan You can see her breasts in quite a few panels (below her clothes) - very noticable in her first panel- and even naked boobs in several panels. And I thought her face looked more feminine than masculine.
I agree there are a lot of pannels when its not obvious though - and it would be better if they made it clearer by actualy saying her gender at the start..
You do realize that 'Aki' is a female name, right? Readers in Japan would've gotten all the information they needed right there, removing any need for the author to grab a megaphone go, "This here is a woh-mun." Plus, she's not even all that butch. Y'all need to learn to appreciate androgyny instead of going, "She doesn't seem female enough on panel #5 of page 14 because I couldn't see her double D honkers and be assured that this yuri series doesn't feature a guy." People like to present in different ways, and women who dress in suits and have androgynous, angular features are extremely popular with lesbians, both in Japan and in the West. It's a veritable cultural phenomenon- look up otokoyaku from the Takarazuka Revue.
It's funny how a series about prostitution somehow manages to make sex feel more heartfelt and natural than 90% of the romcoms I've read in my entire life. As various people have pointed out, the profession is not exactly a fun avenue to self-discovery, but this series excels at avoiding the traps of drama, voyeurism or objectification, and presents bodies as extensions of people, as a means of connection and enjoyment. The art, for all its sexiness, never feels pornographic or leering so much as it is traced by someone with a genuine love for the human form, much like what'd you see in Otome no Teikoku. Casual, one-off flings are part and parcel of the premise here, but rather than making them seem pseudo-romantic or overtly mercenary, every sexual encounter feels like a giddy, lighthearted exchange between people who enjoy sex for what it is, offering each other pleasure and expecting nothing more. Good stuff.
last edited at Dec 1, 2020 2:04PM
Huh looked like I was wrong - this wasn't an Isekai anthology after all. That said, even with how out-of-nowhere the isekai part of the first one-shot was, I think I actually preferred that one more. There just isn't enough focus on the maid and her mistress' relationship in my opinion.
I agree. The whole confrontation scene in the court is something that I've seen more than a dozen times by now, right down to the dialogue, characterizations and even the general aesthetic of the place, and it's worth mentioning that I don't even read all that many otome isekais in the first place. They've put so much effort into reconstructing a clichéd situation, devoted so much time to a melodramatic confrontation that gives some arrogant blowhard more dialogue than both our leads combined in what is ostensibly a yuri anthology, and traded in every chance to actually develop the relationship in order to flesh out a mystery that we know can only be resolved in one way. It's like you got a hundred million pounds to make a show about gay British nobles, and then did a shot-for-shot remake of The Crown before having two girls hug each other in the final episode. I love the art and the intensity of expressions, but this entire story felt like a bunch of exposition pages that I had to rifle through to get to the point, except for the fact that they're supposed to be the be-all and end-all. Honestly disappointing, especially since the maid angle was new and much more interesting than listening to Generic Talkative Royal Asshole #592 throw a tantrum.
Their eyes were different... like they were lost, people say "don't judge a person by appearance" but you know, sometimes you can tell when someone is up to no good.
This is 100% a thing. I've seen a lot of horny folks with sex on the mind who ogle random strangers with their jaws wide open and straight-up forget to be discreet or look away. It's like they've watched so much porn that they've forgotten how to differentiate real individuals from actors behind a screen. Be funny if it wasn't so creepy. Though at least it makes 'em easy to detect and avoid.
Edit: On second thought, there's also a ton of people with different standards of behavior, or folks who have difficulties picking up on social cues. Quite often, they get called out for being perverts even if they just happened to be thinking about other stuff or forget to look at an appropriately neutral zone. There was this dude in my college who was visually impaired + neurodivergent, and he often had to squint at people for a while to get an idea of their faces. This, coupled with the fact that his natural expression was a wide-toothed smile (probably to ease the tension and awkwardness that a lot of people felt while interacting with him), led to a lot of people feeling uncomfortable or frightened when he approached them for help, or just to chat. As a result, people started to give him a wide berth, and he ended up quite lonely despite being fairly good-natured. So maybe 'everyone who stares at you for prolonged periods is a stalker' might not be such a good rule of thumb. Guess we just need to handle it case-by-case.
last edited at Dec 1, 2020 11:26AM
Poryu: Why can't you just realize that you and Ruby are gay for each other?
Azurite: We are not. I just think she's really cute and she thinks I'm cool. You can't just say we're-
Poryu: On the mahou shoujo exam, we asked questions that only lesbians would know the answers to.
Azurite: Then how did I pass- oh.
Glad to see this here. Love the main dynamic too- a wolf who's not quite aggressive, not quite passive, and a sheep that knows what she wants, even if she's a bit shaky on the specifics. The whole species-driven alpha-omega thing crops up a lot more in yaoi, now that I think about it, but it's nice to see a sapphic spin on it.
Exposure therapy in more ways than one.
Actually, it was just a goof on the comment about wanting a mountain bike for Christmas since that was so very random, even for this thread.
Ah, I didn't see that one and figured the whole thing actually happened irl. Which would've been hilarious, if rather dicey to explain your way out of.
Regarding Japanese societal ills: From what I've read about the country, I strongly suspect that the root issue behind all of them is that Japan has modernized far too rapidly for its own good over the last 150 years. Its technological level and population density is that of Tönnies' Gesellschaft, but the prevailing mindset belongs to a Gemeinschaft, and those two just don't get along. In many ways (but not all!), modern Japanese society is very similar to that of Victorian Britain 150 years ago: rich yet overworked, self-repressed yet oversexed, and obsessed with youthful beauty. The aforementioned poor state of mental care in Japan is also eerily similar to the infamous Victorian "madhouses".
Also interesting is the political divide in the country- despite general assumptions that the Japanese population is wildly conservative, polls have established that they're actually quite liberal and support issues like same-sex marriage, worker's rights, income equality and so forth. It's just that the average Japanese citizen isn't politically active- they've got way too much (over)work on their plate to devote time to reading up on political campaigns, let alone participating in them, and probably also don't want to cope with the social stigma of being seen as ' radical'. I watched this video in which a person interviewed Japanese women on their views about ' feminism', and the vast majority didn't know what the word meant (amusingly, one thought it referred to lesbian relationships). On further inquiry, the interviewer found that most women in Japan had feminism-adjacent views, but lacked the drive or political knowledge to mobilize powerful campaigns. The hyper-politicized culture of the West that makes political conversations commonplace and renders it impossible to live without a defined view doesn't exist in Japan- if anything, political nonalignment and apathy is the norm there, and the focus is much more on living one's own life in a suitably dutiful/unobtrusive way. The incredibly low voter turnout in recent elections and the general lack of overt to references to political issues in Japanese pop culture reinforce this- neither the NEETs and nor the salarymen are really driven to care about specific societal issues, and especially not those relating to minorities.
Content creators in Japanese media might promote messages like 'Discrimination is bad' all the time, but they're always set in societies so fantastic that any degree of real-world applicability gets rendered moot, and Japan thus remains thoroughly xenophobic while idolizing shows like FMA and most of Ghibli's output. Anti-capitalism dwells at the heart of much of Japanese cyberpunk and has characterized some of its most iconic franchises, but the country's economy itself is relentlessly capitalist (peddling gacha games with predatory gambling and lootbox mechanics to kids and younger audiences ought to be illegal, but instead, there's more of 'em coming out each year with zero restrictions on wallet-squeezing drop rates, even when measures to cut down on lootboxes have been taken in the EU). This odd, yawning gap between the seeming optimism and brightness of Japanese media and the cruel realities of its society can also be seen in the nation's immense dearth of any kind of social or political satire (at least in manga/anime). You get shows like Konosuba or SSSS Gridman that poke fun at NEET culture or promote messages of not living in fantasy worlds, but they're often just lip-service, wrapped up in packages sold with internet-breaking waifus who mint figurines by the millions for stay-at-home collectors (and I think I've already mentioned how this dates back to Gundam and Evangelion in another one of our conversations).
The vast majority of idol shows would much rather market fluffy, ecstatic high-school girls to audiences instead of exploring how mercilessly exploitative the industry is, the vast majority of isekai shows would much rather show hardcore 'gamers' being rewarded for their achievements in alternate worlds instead of telling them that their behavior might be self-destructive, and we've already explored how most shonen shows get mental health horribly wrong. Heck, I've heard that Japanese studio execs often don't allow shows that are too explicitly subversive or satirical to air in the first place, and the same goes for manga publishers. From the earliest point of their careers, content creators are told to play it safe, to focus on materialism and pretty character designs and moe rather than any deeper messaging. The reason why the handfuls of manga about queer and trans folks still being published in Japan come off as 'preachy' to Western readers is because authors writing for Japanese audiences quite literally need to educate them about these issues from scratch, to tell them that these people exist, because the level of political awareness about anything but the most mainstream groups is nonexistent.
Japan today is a mildly nightmarish society precisely because it takes the two prime ends of the labour cycle, work and recreation, and hones each of them to symbiotic efficiency. Workers in black companies and high-pressure positions toil their brains out, putting in hours of overtime that they legally don't need to in order to prevent being ostracized by co-workers, and then wearily stagger home to consume streams of wish-fulfilling, pandering content utterly devoid of social messaging or subversive themes, designed for the sole purpose of injecting serotonin and dopamine into their brains so they can pick themselves off the couch next morning and repeat the cycle anew. That's also why gacha games are so popular in Japan despite getting criticized in the Western community for repetitive and simple gameplay, plastic characters, patchwork plots and terrible rates- your average Japanese salaryman doesn't have the time to boot up the old PS4 and question humanity with Nier Automata. He pulls his smartphone out on the train for a login bonus, does some grinding in the breaks between shifts, invests the vast majority of his disposable income in rolling, feels a rush of validation when he gets a character, and actually feels like he's indulging in the closest thing to a real relationship when an anime girl flutters her eyelids and tells him she loves him, because he has worked for this harder than he has at any other relationship in his joyless, regimented life.
The majority of Japanese don't want literary masterpieces, and are fine with generic, 'safe' content as long as it's reliable and gives them an emotional drip-feed. They love SOL because their own lives are so utterly, tragically devoid of it. And the fact that they reinvest their hard-won gains into the products of corporations with work cultures every bit as toxic as the ones that oppress them ensures that the cycle will never break, because all the prospective rebels have had their spirit crushed by the labor cycle. It's Marx's worst nightmare, and since the nation's political system is dominated by a bunch of privileged, conservative old men who will never be voted out by an exhausted and apathetic populace drowning in false consciousness, the future looks pretty bleak. And in retrospect, all those catchy, inspirational 'Work hard and you can do anything!~" messages from every corner of Japanese pop culture become a whole lot more sinister when you apply 'em to corporate culture. After the fascination's faded, you look underneath and see the rot. To put it simply, Japan in the 21st century is a borderline-dystopian nightmare (though the West's honestly not too far behind).
Just a friendly reminder not to let your kids play on your computer while you're logged into NSFW sites like Dynasty.
Head of lesbian club: How did your parents express their support and tell you that you were valid?
Lesbian A: My Dad brought me a rainbow coloured T-shirt on the first day of Pride.
Lesbian B: My Mom walked in on me kissing my girlfriend, gave us a thumbs-up, and gracefully backed out.
Lesbian C: I found manga about girls making out on my father's laptop and knew this house was blessed.
On a more serious note, I hope the situation didn't get too awkward.
Comfy outfits, cute interactions, wonderful gifts, romantic progress and ardent intimacy- this chapter was a veritable five-course meal.
So Yatsude would be more like "Ey im walkin ere"? That's cool.
"Spwead teh neuuuhs, Ah'm cumin' 'ooome, Neeeu Yahwk, Neeeu Yahwk."
Did anyone else notice that the Inn's name includes the word "Yuri"? (海百合館).
And the mistress looks like a character from mochi-au-lait's Kagaya inn(yuri natsu) lol
Every day, we grow closer to realizing that all yuri stories are set within the same universe. I, for one, like to think that all the abandoned, lonely childhood friend lesbians shall one day meet Touma-kun