One of the best exchanges in this chapter:

Kasumi says: "All I want to do in life is relax at home while eating delicious food."
Sakurako hugs her and immediately replies: "I'll work hard to earn a living!"

My fave was Kasumi saying that what she likes most is hearing the way Sakurako call out to her.

It’s such a simple thing that occurs in their everyday life and yet after five years of being together, Kasumi still looks forward to hearing her name from Sakurako.

And then... a kiss.

Most people tend to assume conflict is the one major literary element without which a narrative structure cannot move forward, and expect to see a whole lot of it in any good story. Writers are often judged by how many points of conflict they include in a tale, how these conflicts are resolved, and how neatly and satisfyingly the closure is tied up. The ancient Greeks already held "agon" (the act of conflict) as the central unit of any plot; and, even today, many contemporary critics believe that conflict is the crucial feature of any literary creation -- or, in other words, that a story simply must have conflict as an indispensable source of tension and drama to hold the interest of the audience.

This manga isn't without conflict though. Most chapters have little conflicts in them. They tend to be very small, but they are enough to satisfy the literary use of conflict.

We're not going to get a marriage arc until Japan actually legalizes gay marriage, I think.

japan, why are you morally degenerate

There are some places in Japan where it is allowed. Even a district in Tokyo. Sadly it's not official anywhere but in those parts, so they would be forced to live there.

I swear, one of Yukiko-sensei's favorite games is trolling the "they're basically married but are they dating?" crowd.

@Blastaar

I don't think the author is out to mock readers for "getting it wrong". The intention is for the reader to ask that question and decide for themselves what the story means to them. Obviously the MC's relationship is yuri, but there's nothing wrong with preferring aspects of the more traditional "officially going out" relationship of, for example, Koruri and Moka.

Also I don't know if that mini-essay from a short while back about medieval canon law and how people were applying that standard to this story was entirely directed at me or not, but simply put I don't believe that stuff at all. I just don't personally feel "dating" is the right word to describe two people who don't consider themselves to exactly be lovers, even if in practice they pretty much are. I understand why others do think of them as dating and I wouldn't argue against it.

last edited at Apr 6, 2019 3:39AM

I just don't personally feel "dating" is the right word to describe two people who don't consider themselves to exactly be lovers, even if in practice they pretty much are. I understand why others do think of them as dating and I wouldn't argue against it.

If I don't define my action as breathing, but suck in oxygen and expel CO2, am I not breathing?
At some point defining things is meaningless, because actions speak more than words.

It's kinda like a narrative tsundere. "Just because they do all the things you would call dating, doesn't mean they are dating or anything."

last edited at Apr 6, 2019 7:44AM

We're not going to get a marriage arc until Japan actually legalizes gay marriage, I think.

japan, why are you morally degenerate

There are some places in Japan where it is allowed. Even a district in Tokyo. Sadly it's not official anywhere but in those parts, so they would be forced to live there.

I remember one that of those municipalities is Shibuya...
And the only reason why I even managed to remember it's name is a certain Kodama Naoko manga

I just don't personally feel "dating" is the right word to describe two people who don't consider themselves to exactly be lovers, even if in practice they pretty much are. I understand why others do think of them as dating and I wouldn't argue against it.

If I don't define my action as breathing, but suck in oygen and expel CO2, am I not breathing?

Apparently, that’s for others to say.

If I don't define my action as breathing, but suck in oygen and expel CO2, am I not breathing?

Apparently, that’s for others to say.

Isn't that what you are doing here? They say they aren't (quite) girlfriends. You say they are.

Be respectful of the characters' opinion of their relationship. ^^

If I don't define my action as breathing, but suck in oygen and expel CO2, am I not breathing?

Apparently, that’s for others to say.

Isn't that what you are doing here? They say they aren't (quite) girlfriends. You say they are.

Be respectful of the characters' opinion of their relationship. ^^

Lol. “Married, but not girlfriends.”

My god, my god, when will we ever see real PROGESS with these two?

last edited at Apr 6, 2019 7:44AM

If I don't define my action as breathing, but suck in oygen and expel CO2, am I not breathing?

Apparently, that’s for others to say.

Isn't that what you are doing here? They say they aren't (quite) girlfriends. You say they are.

Be respectful of the characters' opinion of their relationship. ^^

Sakurako simply said they are more than just girlfriends. Their relationship cannot be defined easily because they are all these things at once.

That doesn't change the fact that they are dating. It's something that doesn't need to be named, because it happens in front of our eyes. The "inhaling" and "expelling" is there. Therefore they are "breathing" even if they don't call it that.

BugDevil posted:

If I don't define my action as breathing, but suck in oygen and expel CO2, am I not breathing?

Apparently, that’s for others to say.

Isn't that what you are doing here? They say they aren't (quite) girlfriends. You say they are.

Be respectful of the characters' opinion of their relationship. ^^

Sakurako simply said they are more than just girlfriends. Their relationship cannot be defined easily because they are all these things at once.

That doesn't change the fact that they are dating. It's something that doesn't need to be named, because it happens in front of our eyes. The "inhaling" and "expelling" is there. Therefore they are "breathing" even if they don't call it that.

"We have a certain way of how we want to convey our relationship, but that doesn't apply to the onlookers. People should have freedom of expression which applies to both us and others. We don't intend to define our relationship as dating, but the onlookers are free to see our relationship how they want. Rather than denying the onlookers' interpretation, we want to keep doing what we want to do, believing someday our opinions/ideas and worldview will be accepted"

"We have a certain way of how we want to convey our relationship, but that doesn't apply to the onlookers. People should have freedom of expression which applies to both us and others. We don't intend to define our relationship as dating, but the onlookers are free to see our relationship how they want. Rather than denying the onlookers' interpretation, we want to keep doing what we want to do, believing someday our opinions/ideas and worldview will be accepted"

Are you quoting something or is that your interpretation of the situation?
Either way there is no different worldview involved here. They just choose not to use the word that describes what they do, even if they do it.

BugDevil posted:

Are you quoting something or is that your interpretation of the situation?

You disappoint me.

The argument about definitions and labels reminded me of it and it fit perfectly.

last edited at Apr 6, 2019 9:43AM

BugDevil posted:

Are you quoting something or is that your interpretation of the situation?

You disappoint me.

The argument about definitions and labels reminded me of it and it fit perfectly.

To be unecessarily fair... I don't read Nettaigyo.
Though from what I heard about it, this is certainly appropiate lol

Most people tend to assume conflict is the one major literary element without which a narrative structure cannot move forward, and expect to see a whole lot of it in any good story. Writers are often judged by how many points of conflict they include in a tale, how these conflicts are resolved, and how neatly and satisfyingly the closure is tied up. The ancient Greeks already held "agon" (the act of conflict) as the central unit of any plot; and, even today, many contemporary critics believe that conflict is the crucial feature of any literary creation -- or, in other words, that a story simply must have conflict as an indispensable source of tension and drama to hold the interest of the audience.

And, well, to all these people, I guess Yukiko-sensei would reply like this:

haha-ha haha-ha haha-ha ah-haa BLLLLL ah-haha

Great I followed your link and now I have that song stuck in my head. :-/

I know I’ve been snarky about this, but much of this whole “dating definition” kerfluffle has been sounding (to me) like a version of, “If they aren’t shown having sex, it doesn’t count.”

(Which happens to echo the infamous, “Kissing doesn’t count if we’re both girls,” a trope justifiably greeted with scorn and horror in this community.)

But if thinking, “I’m going to say they’re not yet dating” accomplishes something pleasing for any given reader, knock yourselves out.

They're basically married at this point, but I may or may not do some comments about hand holding with interlocking fingers just for the memes, depending on whether I find irrefutable that they already have interlocked fingers while holding hands in my re-read of this or not.

EDIT:
Also, why did this thread briefly turn into a dumpster fire of comments that I find hilarious?

EDIT:
Im case I wasn't clear in the previous edit: it's the comments within the dumpster fire that I found hilarious, not the dumpster fire itself.

last edited at Apr 6, 2019 2:52PM

Evidence of the certain kind of hand holding I was looking for found. And earlier than expected, too:
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_room_for_two_ch11#8

Will edit this post if/when I find further evidence of interlocked fingers.

EDIT:
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_room_for_two_ch19#3

EDIT:
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_room_for_two_ch34#4

EDIT:
Eh, forget it, I'm too sleepy to browse volumes 5 and 6... I'ma gonna browse them for undeniable interlocked fingers scenes between Sakurako and Kasumi in the morning...

EDIT:
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_room_for_two_ch41#8

EDIT:
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_room_for_two_ch52#3

EDIT:
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_room_for_two_ch52#5

last edited at Apr 7, 2019 5:23AM

Evidence of the certain kind of hand holding I was looking for found. And earlier than expected, too:
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_room_for_two_ch11#8

Will edit this post if/when I find further evidence of interlocked fingers.

Weren't those interlocked enough?

Evidence of the certain kind of hand holding I was looking for found. And earlier than expected, too:
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/a_room_for_two_ch11#8

Will edit this post if/when I find further evidence of interlocked fingers.

Weren't those interlocked enough?

Yes, they were, but I want to find more for two reasons. First: this seemed to me as having been because of Kasumi trying to calm Sakurako down. Second (and much bigger reason): simply to get myself and others some eyecandy.

Blastaar posted:

(Which happens to echo the infamous, “Kissing doesn’t count if we’re both girls,” a trope justifiably greeted with scorn and horror in this community.)

Wasn't it more "When it's between 2 girls, it doesn't count" for basically everything in general? From kissing, to sex, to holding hands.

We're not going to get a marriage arc until Japan actually legalizes gay marriage, I think.

japan, why are you morally degenerate

There are some places in Japan where it is allowed. Even a district in Tokyo. Sadly it's not official anywhere but in those parts, so they would be forced to live there.

I remember one that of those municipalities is Shibuya...
And the only reason why I even managed to remember it's name is a certain Kodama Naoko manga

I want to give proper adulation to HOKKAIDO. Japan's physically largest prefecture, a separate island with a climate verging on ocean subarctic and tons of wildlife that doesn't exist anywhere else in Japan, or in some cases in the world. And the ENTIRE prefecture, which has one large city, Sapporo (so it's not a backwater like Niigata, where I lived), legalized gay marriage. Also as someone from rural Alaska, I really appreciated Hokkaido the most and it was by far my favorite destination.

By the way a Tadaima/Okaeri Kissu!! #53 is one for the record books.

last edited at Apr 6, 2019 6:16PM

If I don't define my action as breathing, but suck in oygen and expel CO2, am I not breathing?

Apparently, that’s for others to say.

Isn't that what you are doing here? They say they aren't (quite) girlfriends. You say they are.

Be respectful of the characters' opinion of their relationship. ^^

Sakurako simply said they are more than just girlfriends. Their relationship cannot be defined easily because they are all these things at once.

That doesn't change the fact that they are dating. It's something that doesn't need to be named, because it happens in front of our eyes. The "inhaling" and "expelling" is there. Therefore they are "breathing" even if they don't call it that.

Yes, but Kasumi said she just prefers to be Sakurako's pet cat. In the end it's up to the people participating in a relationship to define it. In many cases even each partner will view their relationship differently let alone what strangers and various other onlookers think. Still, final word goes to the people in said relationship.

If I see a girl and a guy eating at a fashionable cafe together and acting extremely close to one another I might interpret it as a couple who are dating, but if they tell me they are just siblings hanging out than that's what they are.

Anyway, the entire point of this chapter was that not all relationships fit into silly pre-cut categories or labels nor should they.

Yes, but Kasumi said she just prefers to be Sakurako's pet cat. In the end it's up to the people participating in a relationship to define it. In many cases even each partner will view their relationship differently let alone what strangers and various other onlookers think. Still, final word goes to the people in said relationship.

If I see a girl and a guy eating at a fashionable cafe together and acting extremely close to one another I might interpret it as a couple who are dating, but if they tell me they are just siblings hanging out than that's what they are.

Anyway, the entire point of this chapter was that not all relationships fit into silly pre-cut categories or labels nor should they.

This would only apply if we had no insight on their general life though...

I want you to repeat this sentence out loud and then smack yourself against the head:
"We cuddle and sleep together, romantically love each other, kiss each other, go on dates together, live together, want to get married, are already integrated as members in the respective other's family and base every decision of our life around each other. OH but we are totally not dating though."

Heck I smacked myself for saying that out loud. As explained before, people can make up or ignore definitions and naming coventions if they want, but on an empirical level, its just undeniable.
Seriously most people would stop being in denial at the "love each other romantically and go on dates" stage.... How do you do it Yukiko-sensei?

BugDevil posted:

Seriously most people would stop being in denial at the "love each other romantically and go on dates" stage.... How do you do it Yukiko-sensei?

Simple. They're playing the longest game of chicken in history. Don't worry. They'll stop once they feel like it got too gay. After being married for like 20 years and popping few kids, probably.

last edited at Apr 7, 2019 5:30AM