I feel like my issue with this series is mainly that when we got Hiroko's POV it was just her freaking out over her gay panic. We could hypothesize that there was something that happened in her past but we didn't get a single hint. All the insight we got was her denial, excuses, and her friends at the bar trashing her for being a lady killer and liar. There was literally nothing there for us to sympathize with. I think that's on the story writer. I feel that dropping her exposition in just one huge chunk is offputting. I personally would have liked a little bit here and a little bit there. It's still been an interesting ride and the side characters are great. IMO Hiroko's character was fumbled.

last edited at Jun 20, 2023 4:52PM

YESS, explanation to her, rather confusing, reasonings !! It was inevitable on such a good story though. Imo it was understandable before the whole Chinatsu and the company story, but confusing 'cause it just felt like something was missing and they went a long way here.

Instead of clearing the table of all the bullshit, she just keeps adding more bullshit to the table

Just adding what I think to what Vankomycin said: and isn't that human-like as shit? I share the same feeling of also liking the "HEA" endings 'cause it really is a great feeling of relief and payoff, but I'm -also- here for how romance can ACTUALLY happen irl, with the concept that the most realistic story we could get is the one that sometimes things makes no sense, and the most unrealistic stories are the ones where everything falls into place like a glove right away.
Romance, love, human connections are simply... not simple, Hiroko is going through her shit, doing things to deal with her own shit and ofc it didn't feel like clean waters exactly because, probably, her mindset is: I really, really love and cherish this amazing person who also treats me well, but this same person basically sacrificed something for me to succeed. Now there's this really new, very interesting and daring person wanting to interact with me in a way that could pretty much destroy what the other person sacrificed for. She even said in the last page "I'll make sure this chance will not go to waste". So I understand why there's shit on top of shit 'cause honestly, if I was in her shoes, I'd be confused as hell on what to do now too...

Personally, when a story has these many rocks on its path, if the ending end up to be "Happily ever after", the feeling of happiness and relief I'm gonna get for these characters to finally be happy after so many battles is far bigger than stories like Can't Defy the Lonely Girl, where the main couple had tense situations, but not as tense and as complex as Hiroko and Ayaka's. (It did have the potential, but I at least felt like Kashikaze wanted to water down things?)
But if it ends and they're not together I'm personally also ok with it... romance doesn't always works. If I wanna see pairings have their HEA at the end I'll just.. read another story.

Very very well-put, I was going to say as much myself, but you beat me to it and probably better than I would have ^^;

I just wanted to say I love this and thank the scalators <3

There was literally nothing there for us to sympathize with.

I don't really agree, although it's of course fine if you didn't sympathize with her earlier (or even now). I think there was enough hinted at and alluded to. This very outcome was discussed by a good amount of people based on those hints and allusions before it was revealed. This chapter just made it less subtle and more upfront.

Nah. We explicitly got her internal monologue where she dismisses them as unfounded rumors. It's only when the risk of Hiroko getting outed comes to the forefront that she resigns, explicitly because that WASN'T an unfounded rumor. She was fine weathering lies, she quit to protect Hiroko's truth.

Yeah, if things were bad based on only rumors, what would have happened once they found out about their budding relationship? She preempted the chaos to protect Hiroko and cut contact so Hiroko wouldn't undo her efforts.

Her haircut is also neater in the back than Hiroko's, that's how I told them apart.

And they say Hiroko was deliberately copying senpai's look, so the similarities are on purpose. Hiroko was just as gungho as Ayaka is now.

last edited at Jun 20, 2023 6:59AM

YESS, explanation to her, rather confusing, reasonings !! It was inevitable on such a good story though. Imo it was understandable before the whole Chinatsu and the company story, but confusing 'cause it just felt like something was missing and they went a long way here.

Instead of clearing the table of all the bullshit, she just keeps adding more bullshit to the table

Just adding what I think to what Vankomycin said: and isn't that human-like as shit? I share the same feeling of also liking the "HEA" endings 'cause it really is a great feeling of relief and payoff, but I'm -also- here for how romance can ACTUALLY happen irl, with the concept that the most realistic story we could get is the one that sometimes things makes no sense, and the most unrealistic stories are the ones where everything falls into place like a glove right away.
Romance, love, human connections are simply... not simple, Hiroko is going through her shit, doing things to deal with her own shit and ofc it didn't feel like clean waters exactly because, probably, her mindset is: I really, really love and cherish this amazing person who also treats me well, but this same person basically sacrificed something for me to succeed. Now there's this really new, very interesting and daring person wanting to interact with me in a way that could pretty much destroy what the other person sacrificed for. She even said in the last page "I'll make sure this chance will not go to waste". So I understand why there's shit on top of shit 'cause honestly, if I was in her shoes, I'd be confused as hell on what to do now too...

Personally, when a story has these many rocks on its path, if the ending end up to be "Happily ever after", the feeling of happiness and relief I'm gonna get for these characters to finally be happy after so many battles is far bigger than stories like Can't Defy the Lonely Girl, where the main couple had tense situations, but not as tense and as complex as Hiroko and Ayaka's. (It did have the potential, but I at least felt like Kashikaze wanted to water down things?)
But if it ends and they're not together I'm personally also ok with it... romance doesn't always works. If I wanna see pairings have their HEA at the end I'll just.. read another story.

Very very well-put, I was going to say as much myself, but you beat me to it and probably better than I would have ^^;

I get in line here, too. I really love flawed characters. It just means they have to work through their shit as the story goes. In the real world, there are so many people out there who are not ready for a relationship (in fact, I think most of us aren't) and it is always a lot of work, so fictional characters figuring their stuff out is just so interesting and rewarding for me to see.

I feel anyone still ragging on Hiroko thinks there has to be some catastrophic world changing events to be the reason a certain character acts a certain way. Obviously lots of manga and anime are that way. But this series has always been pretty grounded and at this point if you can't sympathize or at least understand why she acts the way she does then the series is probably just not for you.

Sure she can be frustrating but that's the point not the problem.

last edited at Jun 20, 2023 7:39AM

Now knowing that Hiroko was, well, traumatised into acting the way she does, it's only relatable. Our past influences our actions in the current much more deeply than those who don't know it could ever realise. As someone who's dealing with that - Hiroko being a fucking dumbass makes sense.

Is it any less frustrating? No. Does it redeem her fully? Also no, because she's clearly unable to communicate well. But it does clear her up and make the story more interesting going forwards.

I'm still sad for Risa.

but I'm -also- here for how romance can ACTUALLY happen irl, with the concept that the most realistic story we could get is the one that sometimes things makes no sense, and the most unrealistic stories are the ones where everything falls into place like a glove right away.

Romance, love, human connections are simply... not simple

This is it exactly.

I also suspect that people need a little seasoning to really appreciate that. I got a lotta mileage on these tires, so (with suitable allowances made for comedic exaggeration) nothing Hiroko has done since Page 1 has struck me as particularly implausible.

last edited at Jun 20, 2023 8:21AM

Sal Jiang designing and drawing office ladies

The past will not obsolve her of her current actions,but they do explain them.

And as for the bastard who started the gossip and the bastards who propgated the gossip,there is but one solution.

The final solution of them all.

I'd be okay with getting back to yuri and be quit of the Greek chorus.

last edited at Jun 20, 2023 3:58PM

I get in line here, too. I really love flawed characters. It just means they have to work through their shit as the story goes. In the real world, there are so many people out there who are not ready for a relationship (in fact, I think most of us aren't) and it is always a lot of work, so fictional characters figuring their stuff out is just so interesting and rewarding for me to see.

Lot of romantic fiction makes the greatest break from reality in that in fiction, it is often hard to start a relationship but seemingly easy to keep it going (happy ever after babying), while in reality it's usually easy to get into a relationship (at least if you're hot or cute) and very hard to keep it going for more than 2 years.

last edited at Jun 21, 2023 12:32PM

So... the formula is making the readers angry?

Kind of. ^_^

But not willingly. Let me give you an analogy. You know the Brontë sisters, Charlotte, Emily and Anne? This a short comic about them:

When it comes to romantic literature for women by women, one of the oldest plot devices in the book is making the heroine's love interest an extremely problematic person: a violent man, an alcoholic, an outcast, a social climber who won't marry the heroine because she's poor, an emotionally-scarred wretch, etc. etc. The story then tells us how the heroine, through great pain and effort, redeems this person's wrongs with the power of her love and wins herself a happy romantic end. Emily and Charlotte Brontë were very fond of this sort of problematic characters, while Anne was NOT; that's why she and her sisters bicker in the comic, as their reactions to the men they see (who by coincidence happen to be the mcs of some novels by Charlotte and Emily) are completely different.

This manga follows that old and tested plot, giving the heroine Ayaka a majorly problematic love interest in Hiroko. Normally, all the readers should react like Charlotte and Emily Brontë would... that is, they should be rooting for Ayaka to break Hiroko's defenses, make her see the errors of her ways, and finally win her heart! Trouble is, 90% of the readers are reacting like Anne would... that is, they think Hiroko is a slimeball and Ayaka needs to find herself a better lover. Ooops. This is not what Sal Jiang had in mind when she created Hiroko.

In the past, there have been many series with similar premises that made the readers in Dynasty forum react the way the author expected. This manga failed to accomplish that. I won't attempt to explain why. Let's just say that Hiroko doesn't have what it takes to charm the readers (whatever this elusive quality may be) and leave it at that.

Congrats on a sterling post! This effectively ends the debate and there's no reason for commenters to keep trying to explain why one should like or dislike Hiroko. Women have since always felt differently about these things. Some are like Charlotte and Emily Brontë, some are like Anne. Some like Heathcliff, some do not. Tastes in fictional characters (emphasis on fiction, reality is another thing) can vary wildly. There's nothing uncommon in that. I hope everbody will realize that writing to justify your likes or criticize others' likes is a pointless exercise.

When will this be published in English. I want a physical copy of it.

See, Risa went to the bar and now she understands what Hiroko meant after that massive, smothering hug lol. Look at the face she's making. 5 minutes in that bar and she's targeted by two women. Though, we all know who's captured "Risapon."

Enjoyed this chapter's focus on showcasing the different perspectives of each of the women. 13 years can be a big difference, so it makes sense that Risa and Ayaka would view these issues differently than Hiroko, who comes with her own bad experiences. I liked that the bar patron also backed Hiroko up. They seem similar in age to Hiroko, so its nice to hear her hint at her own experiences and fears. Before that, Risa and Ayaka hadn't really understood or treated seriously the realities of the past, how that might affect someone older and how much 13 years can change an environment. The quest really will be to show Hiroko that things have changed for the better (at least somewhat) and that Ayaka will not be happy with this kind of protection, no matter what. Their workplace seems nice but as Hiroko mentioned, its the higher-ups, the board, and the public that really brings the hammer in these situations. Looking forward to following Ayaka again and glad Risa doesn't blame her. We know Ayaka doesn't give up; so, we'll see how much longer Hiroko's worry can last against Ayaka's tenacity.

last edited at Jun 21, 2023 6:27PM

Congrats on a sterling post! This effectively ends the debate and there's no reason for commenters to keep trying to explain why one should like or dislike Hiroko. Women have since always felt differently about these things. Some are like Charlotte and Emily Brontë, some are like Anne. Some like Heathcliff, some do not. Tastes in fictional characters (emphasis on fiction, reality is another thing) can vary wildly. There's nothing uncommon in that. I hope everbody will realize that writing to justify your likes or criticize others' likes is a pointless exercise.

Wait till you realize that people comment on works for fun and will continue doing so no matter how "pointless" it is.

last edited at Jun 21, 2023 6:17PM

I really like how real this manga got about gay discrimination even if built off intense miscommunication trope. Perfect for Pride month.

i love how much range there is in this series. it's so grounded in reality

I really wish Ayaka would forget about hiroko and get someone better. and that hiroko stays alone. even knowing everything that happened. I still don't like her. but we know that's not going to happen

Anne, why are you writing books about how alcoholic losers ruin people's lives? Don't you see that romanticizing douchey behavior is the proper literary convention in this family! Honestly.

The end of the chapter is really cathartic. It's easy to empathize with Risa and feel like she's in the worst place, but we can see that others see her earnestness, and she will meet people who love her who she can love.

I really like how real this manga got about gay discrimination even if built off intense miscommunication trope. Perfect for Pride month.

Hm...And now I miss CEO-chan.

Congrats on a sterling post! This effectively ends the debate and there's no reason for commenters to keep trying to explain why one should like or dislike Hiroko. Women have since always felt differently about these things. Some are like Charlotte and Emily Brontë, some are like Anne. Some like Heathcliff, some do not. Tastes in fictional characters (emphasis on fiction, reality is another thing) can vary wildly. There's nothing uncommon in that. I hope everbody will realize that writing to justify your likes or criticize others' likes is a pointless exercise.

Wait till you realize that people comment on works for fun and will continue doing so no matter how "pointless" it is.

They didn't say "comment". They said "justify yourself or criticize others". Because there's nothing to justify or criticize in your fictional tastes. You need to work on those reading skills. Work on that pointless aggressivity, too.
I don't know what it is with this manga that makes people lash madly in all directions.

Yeah, probably this backstory should've been narrated earlier since pretty much all of us hate Hiroko and have made up our mind on the "she only rejected Ayaka to protect her public persona" plot line