b58 posted:

What bothers me is the implication that they still live together, that's fucking messed up! are we going to see him from time to time bringing more women ?

... the first chapter basically straight up said she is moving out though. Can't imagine how "I saved up enough to dump you" and "I retrieved my things from your place" could mean she is staying. Maybe she is just visiting him to eat the cake or whatever (or didn't move quite yet :P)

I forgot LoL, that was bothering me too much, then it's all fine, the conversation made it look like she needs to take care of him.

last edited at Feb 26, 2023 6:25PM

b58 posted:

What bothers me is the implication that they still live together, that's fucking messed up! are we going to see him from time to time bringing more women ?

... the first chapter basically straight up said she is moving out though. Can't imagine how "I saved up enough to dump you" and "I retrieved my things from your place" could mean she is staying. Maybe she is just visiting him to eat the cake or whatever (or didn't move quite yet :P)

I forgot LoL, that was bothering me too much, then it's all fine, the conversation made it look like she needs to take care of him.

Turns out the rest of the series is her feeding him cake while he's in a baby crib. That's when things get really weird lmao

b58 posted:

What bothers me is the implication that they still live together, that's fucking messed up! are we going to see him from time to time bringing more women ?

... the first chapter basically straight up said she is moving out though. Can't imagine how "I saved up enough to dump you" and "I retrieved my things from your place" could mean she is staying. Maybe she is just visiting him to eat the cake or whatever (or didn't move quite yet :P)

I forgot LoL, that was bothering me too much, then it's all fine, the conversation made it look like she needs to take care of him.

Turns out the rest of the series is her feeding him cake while he's in a baby crib. That's when things get really weird lmao

I think I see what is going on. I can't say I like seeing this cheating bastard get coddled despite his morally abhorrent behavior, but what this does clearly demonstrate is that the flavor of love the OL feels towards her ex was never truly passionate and romantic in nature. One of the hallmarks of romantic love, at least for the vast majority of us, is a sense of possessiveness over one's partner and jealousy toward any potential rivals both of which seem to be very much missing here.

What she seems to have primarily experienced was the sort of motherly or familial affection one feels toward an adored pet, friend, or sibling. I think she likely wanted to marry him mostly because she was genuinely comfortable with and fond of living with this guy, and getting married to a man is what is expected of women, particularly in Japanese society. Having never really experienced passionate, possessive romantic love toward anyone she simply figured the more familial variety she developed with Cheater Mc Cheater Face was all there was to a romance.

Some are suggesting that she is just really well-adjusted, but I don't get that feeling from her. She seems to be a bit of a drunk and low-key emotional mess rather than some zen master with a measured, ironclad grip on her passions and romantic life but rather she simply seems very aloof and that she never really cared that much about all this to begin with.

last edited at Feb 26, 2023 7:45PM

I've known multiple people who stayed on good terms with their ex, including living together. (Presumably going to different bedrooms? Though I wasn't close enough to ask. And in my college, which allowed co-ed rooms in the dorms, that might not happens.)

As multiple people have complained, customer-san is a copied character design from "lady who likes my sister", with a similar expressionless intensity.

It kinda bothers me after the cheating she's still so Casual with her ex "Baba-kun" lol. It all feels so contrived and non sensical, I assume this is nothing more than a stupid gag Yuri Comedy?

Which anthology is that from? I think it is from "Comic It", but other than being a publisher for the tankubon, I cannot find this manga after I purchased a couple of issues, but neither the artist nor the manga are in the issues vol 23 and vol 25. . Also, thank you for the scanlation.

last edited at Feb 26, 2023 10:49PM

Page 5 - who's Miyako?

Page 5 - who's Miyako?

Server girls brother

Giftnova posted:

Page 5 - who's Miyako?

Server girls brother

Tbf, his name (都) can be read several different ways in Japanese. And there's no furigana reading affixed to it.

last edited at Feb 27, 2023 2:41AM

It kinda bothers me after the cheating she's still so Casual with her ex "Baba-kun" lol. It all feels so contrived and non sensical, I assume this is nothing more than a stupid gag Yuri Comedy?

I mean, it is a rom-com. So having silly gags, weird personality quirks and odd situations is a given.

Oh right, I figured anyone named Miyako would have to be a woman.

last edited at Feb 27, 2023 3:08AM

Blech, cheaters are absolute scum who should be kicked to the curb and damned, no exception. They have no consideration for their partner’s feelings and are selfish assholes. Even if the girl didn’t mind the cheating itself (for some dumb reason), it still ended up bothering her, and really throws off this “maternal feelings” excuse she gives for still wanting to be with him. Why the fuck would you still wanna hang around and care for someone who has proven multiple times that they don’t care about you at all? I mean, she took a big step forward and confronted him about his cheating and broke up with him! Then she does a fuckin marathon sprint backwards and goes back to living with him and buying him fuckin cakes? Seriously?

Either the author is pulling a pro gamer move and setting up this woman to be a real looney tune with a red flag on her back so big she looks like she’s cosplaying superman, or maybe they’re trying to treat her as a genuinely well adjusted character and trying to make us look at her like how the protagonist does, like “oh sure she’s a little odd…bUt ShEs JuSt So HaWt I cAnT eVeN!” Considering the author just had Kyouko freak out for a second but then go “oh okay” after she explained her dumbass “maternal” reason for staying with him, I’m pretty sure their intention here is to genuinely try to pitch us this character as believable and someone who DOESN’T have some major problems, even though she clearly does to any casual observer. Hell, even her weirdly calm, kinda yandere-ish vibes that other people have noticed were probably unintentional on the author’s part. But when you make a character that makes fuckin insane choices with stupid reasoning, everything else they do is gonna look crazy too.

Idk, I’m just worried for the direction of this manga. Hope it turns around quick.

Nail on the head. That’s exactly what I wanted to articulate.

Blech, cheaters are absolute scum who should be kicked to the curb and damned, no exception. They have no consideration for their partner’s feelings and are selfish assholes. Even if the girl didn’t mind the cheating itself (for some dumb reason), it still ended up bothering her, and really throws off this “maternal feelings” excuse she gives for still wanting to be with him. Why the fuck would you still wanna hang around and care for someone who has proven multiple times that they don’t care about you at all? I mean, she took a big step forward and confronted him about his cheating and broke up with him! Then she does a fuckin marathon sprint backwards and goes back to living with him and buying him fuckin cakes? Seriously?

Either the author is pulling a pro gamer move and setting up this woman to be a real looney tune with a red flag on her back so big she looks like she’s cosplaying superman, or maybe they’re trying to treat her as a genuinely well adjusted character and trying to make us look at her like how the protagonist does, like “oh sure she’s a little odd…bUt ShEs JuSt So HaWt I cAnT eVeN!” Considering the author just had Kyouko freak out for a second but then go “oh okay” after she explained her dumbass “maternal” reason for staying with him, I’m pretty sure their intention here is to genuinely try to pitch us this character as believable and someone who DOESN’T have some major problems, even though she clearly does to any casual observer. Hell, even her weirdly calm, kinda yandere-ish vibes that other people have noticed were probably unintentional on the author’s part. But when you make a character that makes fuckin insane choices with stupid reasoning, everything else they do is gonna look crazy too.

Idk, I’m just worried for the direction of this manga. Hope it turns around quick.

Couldn't agree more, it's so dumb I almost lost all interest.

"cheaters are absolute scum who should be kicked to the curb and damned, no exception" is a viewpoint that cares more about moral simplicity than understanding and empathizing with humans in their full complexity. And even if you believe this, someone who disagrees is not "making fucking insane choices with stupid reasoning."

moral simplicity over understanding and empathizing with humans in their full complexity

all I can say is that certain experiences shape each and every one of us, so I sympathize with both sides of the argument. to be fair, I am not disagreeing with you but I hesitate to fully agree

I don't think cheating is necessarily done with the intent of malice, but that doesn't excuse the consequences and trauma of such an act

as an aside... I def vibe with the author's other work more in any case, but as someone else said earlier in the thread, the common theme seems to be an interestingly unusual dynamic between the MCs.

last edited at Feb 27, 2023 11:04AM

I'll just also point out that the guy quite literally got "kicked to the curb" for said cheating :P

moral simplicity over understanding and empathizing with humans in their full complexity

all I can say is that certain experiences shape each and every one of us, so I sympathize with both sides of the argument. to be fair, I am not disagreeing with you but I hesitate to fully agree

I don't think cheating is necessarily done with the intent of malice, but that doesn't excuse the consequences and trauma of such an act

I was probably being too strident in my original comment, but I just get annoyed when people act like anyone who cheats must be an irredeemably awful person. Cheating is bad of course, but in other contexts we recognize that people can do bad things while still retaining positive qualities; people are generally willing to sympathize with literal murderers in fiction, so why is cheating beyond the pale? It really makes me wonder how they'd react to something like Run Away With Me, Girl. So people in this thread going further and arguing that merely not cutting off contact with a cheater makes you bad, stupid, and/or crazy yourself kinda set me off lol.

Well even if I read a manga with murderers, I don't expect anyone saying "I cant' believe you murdered my father! alright THAT'S IT! you're not getting pudding tonight!" you see what I mean? is not about cutting off contact completely, is just really freaking awkward to stay so close after that... BUT hopefully that's going to end presumably soon, and she can still call and even visit him as a friend.

To be honest, relationships can be really complicated and difficult to deal with. I have seen and heard wayyyy more cases in real life that are incomprehensible, stupid and annoying, so that Midori and her ex relationship isn't entirely out of this world to me. I can't relate nor understand how she feels, but I kinda believe it can exist. Human and relationships are hard to understand fully after all

moral simplicity over understanding and empathizing with humans in their full complexity

all I can say is that certain experiences shape each and every one of us, so I sympathize with both sides of the argument. to be fair, I am not disagreeing with you but I hesitate to fully agree

I don't think cheating is necessarily done with the intent of malice, but that doesn't excuse the consequences and trauma of such an act

I was probably being too strident in my original comment, but I just get annoyed when people act like anyone who cheats must be an irredeemably awful person. Cheating is bad of course, but in other contexts we recognize that people can do bad things while still retaining positive qualities; people are generally willing to sympathize with literal murderers in fiction, so why is cheating beyond the pale? It really makes me wonder how they'd react to something like Run Away With Me, Girl. So people in this thread going further and arguing that merely not cutting off contact with a cheater makes you bad, stupid, and/or crazy yourself kinda set me off lol.

It’s been a long while since I read any bit of “Run Away with Me, Girl”, and I never finished it (spoiler alert: I hated it too lol), so forgive me if I’m misremembering some details. But I’m guessing you brought it up since it involves a complex series of circumstances and feelings where woman A is stuck in a relationship with an asshole abusive (possibly also cheating, I forget) husband and seeks relief and true love with woman B, who she “cheats” with.

Honestly, my main problem with it was more that (if I’m remembering this right) Woman A and Woman B used to date in high school, until Woman A broke things off cuz “it was just a phase lol”. Then she comes back into Woman B’s life and tries to worm her way back into her heart. It felt less to me like an actual realization on Woman A’s part that she did actually love B and didn’t realize it till now, and more like she just wanted a convenient out from her abusive relationship and thus saw Woman B (who clearly still loved her) as her escape. That, along with Woman B’s complete lack of self respect and just falling all over this bitch who broke her heart and jumping to take her back, just made me hate that story so much lol.

As for the “cheating” part, though, I don’t really condone it there either. I know that’s probably a hot take, but I don’t support cheating at all, even if it’s a victim of abuse cheating on an abuser. But that’s for different reasons, since I think the sole focus should be on getting the abuse victim OUT of that awful situation before anyone can even think of getting them into a new relationship. The victim probably needs therapy, not another romance right then, and, at it’s worst, what if the abuser found out about the cheating? That would most certainly just make things worse for the victim. Safer for all involved to just not cheat at all.

And, anyways, fighting fire with fire doesn’t “excuse” the act of burning anyone. If someone cheats on you, I don’t think it gives you a “free pass” to cheat on them with moral impunity. We don’t allow the family of murder victims to get away with killing the murderers who wronged them. We don’t sentence rapists to rape. If someone burns your house down, you don’t get to torch their crib right back while everyone turns away and whistles and pretends like nothing’s happening. Cuz the act itself is scummy and won’t fix shit. I can see how, in some instances, we might empathize with these people who do something bad (like a character who kills someone that murdered a loved one), but some things I think are beyond empathizing with, like cheating and sexual assault. They’re awful acts and I don’t think you could ever even justify them as “being in the service of another” or something. Just pure selfishness and vile scummery.

Anyways, just my two cents. This got a lot more philosophical and shit than I originally intended, so to summarize my thoughts and feelings: “cheaters bad, me hate cheaters >:(“

As for the “cheating” part, though, I don’t really condone it there either. I know that’s probably a hot take, but I don’t support cheating at all, even if it’s a victim of abuse cheating on an abuser.

I'm not arguing that sometimes cheating is actually good (though I'm sure you could invent a philosophical thought experiment where it is). I'm saying that cheating on your partner doesn't make you an irredeemably bad person with no positive characteristics. The character in Run Away with Me, Girl doesn't cheat on her fiance out of malice; she does it because she's lonely and terrified and can't muster up the courage to escape her abusive relationship unless she can prove to herself that someone else wants her. That doesn't make it "right" or "smart," but is is extremely understandable and sympathetic. In any event, calling this "pure selfishness and vile scummery" is, in my opinion, an extremely unreasonable insistence on seeing the world in black and white terms.

Now, Baba here is not nearly as sympathetic as the character in Run Away with Me, Girl, to be clear. His motivations are not nearly as sympathetic. But if we extrapolate from what Midori says in this chapter, the point is that he, too, did not cheat out of malice; he's not an evil villain snickering to himself at how he's taking advantage of his poor girlfriend. It's more that he's kind of immature and thoughtless and didn't really understand that his actions were hurting his partner. This makes him an awful boyfriend, of course. But to Midori, it doesn't cancel out his positive qualities -- that he's fun to be around, that he doesn't care how she barely shows any emotion -- so she's still regularly hanging out with him. (She also doesn't really seem to have any other friends, which I'm sure is a factor.)

This may not be the choice you would make in her shoes, but that doesn't make her crazy or stupid as other posters here have called her. It just makes her not you.

I don't expect anyone saying "I cant' believe you murdered my father! alright THAT'S IT! you're not getting pudding tonight!"

LOL

i can't imagine that at all bc that manga would probably turn genres into something like "My Name" (Netflix drama) haha

I'm not arguing that sometimes cheating is actually good (though I'm sure you could invent a philosophical thought experiment where it is). I'm saying that cheating on your partner doesn't make you an irredeemably bad person with no positive characteristics. The character in Run Away with Me, Girl doesn't cheat on her fiance out of malice; she does it because she's lonely and terrified and can't muster up the courage to escape her abusive relationship unless she can prove to herself that someone else wants her. That doesn't make it "right" or "smart," but is is extremely understandable and sympathetic. In any event, calling this "pure selfishness and vile scummery" is, in my opinion, an extremely unreasonable insistence on seeing the world in black and white terms.

Now, Baba here is not nearly as sympathetic as the character in Run Away with Me, Girl, to be clear. His motivations are not nearly as sympathetic. But if we extrapolate from what Midori says in this chapter, the point is that he, too, did not cheat out of malice; he's not an evil villain snickering to himself at how he's taking advantage of his poor girlfriend. It's more that he's kind of immature and thoughtless and didn't really understand that his actions were hurting his partner. This makes him an awful boyfriend, of course. But to Midori, it doesn't cancel out his positive qualities -- that he's fun to be around, that he doesn't care how she barely shows any emotion -- so she's still regularly hanging out with him. (She also doesn't really seem to have any other friends, which I'm sure is a factor.)

This may not be the choice you would make in her shoes, but that doesn't make her crazy or stupid as other posters here have called her. It just makes her not you.

Lol ok maybe I do see things a little too “black and white”, but you are way too much of a devil’s advocate. Cheating is ALWAYS out of malice, whether it’s conscious or not. It’s a malicious, selfish act, plain and simple. Sure, the boyfriend might not have been twirling his villainous mustache and cackling evilly about wanting to hurt Midori, but he made the CONSCIOUS DECISION to commit an act that he knew would hurt someone who cared about him. Then, when he’s caught (multiple times), he tries to excuse his behavior instead of owning up and apologizing and never doing it again. All for his own selfish reasons. That’s fucked up, and that makes him an awful person. And if Midori is stupid enough to still wanna live with him and treat him to sweets and take care of him after the clear disregard he showed her and the drunken spirals he sent her into, then, yeah, I’m gonna call her crazy and someone not very capable of making intelligent decisions, even if she has rationalized it to herself with her own dumb logic.

Like, sorry, but when someone hurts me big time like that in a way that does nothing but fulfill their own selfish desires at my expense, doesn’t apologize, tries to excuse it, and then continues to do it while knowing I don’t like it,
I ain’t forgiving that or gonna hang out with them or whatever lol. And if I saw someone get treated like that, but they still wanted to pal around with the person who clearly displayed they have no regard for their feelings, I would say that’s mighty stupid.

That may not be how you see things, but that’s the lens I (and, apparently, many others here) see things through.

Though, no matter what I say, I doubt it’ll break through your shades of gray. If you refuse to believe that some things can just be objectively bad and some people and their actions undeniably awful (even if they aren’t actively monologuing about how happy they are to be doing said bad things or hurting people), I can’t help ya. Sure, dude apparently had some positive qualities. Everyone does, even truly evil people (well, as “evil” as your worldview seems to allow). Hell, even fuckin Hitler apparently loved animals and was vegetarian cuz he didn’t like the idea of animals suffering. But dontcha think that maybe sometimes the bad and negative shit supersedes the good and positive? I think so in this case. Of course, I’m not Midori. But that doesn’t mean I can’t judge her for her actions based on how I see them. Cuz, in fact, I’m not anyone but me, so there’s no other way I could see em.

(Also, no, I didn’t find the girl in “Run Away with Me, Girl” sympathetic at all. She broke up with her girlfriend in high school, denying her own sexuality while fucking up the other girl’s life for years and making her feel like she was weird for being a lesbian, then realizes she doesn’t want this relationship with this abusive guy she’s with and tries to toy with her old girlfriend’s heart to whisk her away from her troubles and take care of her and her unborn child. I understand why she would wanna get out of that relationship, but I don’t sympathize with her manipulating her old girlfriend and using that love she still has for her as a dumping ground for her problems and an escape from her shitty life).

If you refuse to believe that some things can just be objectively bad and some people and their actions undeniably awful

I actually do believe both those things. As I've said multiple times, I agree that cheating is bad. But the current internet trend of making cheating out to be one of the worst things you can possibly do -- in a previous post of yours, you compared it to sexual assault and implied you'd be more willing to forgive murder -- is extremely odd to me. Cheating is not an unforgivable sin, just a really shitty thing to do. And contrary to your assertion, plenty of people don't cheat out of malice. You say Baba made a conscious decision to hurt his girlfriend, but we don't know that he actually hurt Midori that badly; indeed, in chapter 2 she even says she was more upset that he wouldn't marry her. You have a different value system than her, which is fine. I'm not saying you should agree with her. I'm saying that having a different value system doesn't make her crazy or stupid.

And this isn't the Run Away with Me, Girl thread, I just brought it up as an example, so I won't get into that with you. I'll just say that I think your analysis of the character in that manga is extremely reductive, hyperfocusing on her sins and refusing to recognize she may have had understandable reasons to do what she did. This is in line with your analysis of Too Blue to Call Love, and I have similar issues with it.