Edit: I just reread the end of the chapter, and that was way more than just a kiss. Kashiwai definitely should have stopped after the first kiss. The rest should have waited until she sorted things out with Jun.

Yeah, but with all due respect, johnb--so what? "Should" is not really what stories are about..

Macbeth should have remained loyal to his liege lord, Duncan. Romeo and Juliet should have steered clear of one another until their families got their stupid feud sorted out. All the gritty detectives in the world should do things by the book and not follow their gut instincts and their own rough moral code.

But they didn't (don't) and finding out why they don't do what they should and what happens when they don't is what their stories are.

(I admit, it's sometimes pleasant to have fluffy stories where everyone acts with insight, maturity, and thoughtful consideration of others. But not all the time.)

No worries. Life is messy. Love is messy. Why shouldn't stories about both be messy too? I find the stories that take me to uncomfortable places are some of the ones that stick with me the most. Not that this story has gone anywhere particularly uncomfortable for me. So far. My desire to see yuri conquer all, is overriding the sympathy I should feel for poor Jun. My conversation with Nya-chan is more of an intellectual debate over what constitutes cheating than it is emotional argument about whether orr not Kashiwai should be condemned for being a cheater.

My actual reaction to Kashiwai and Tsuzuki's kiss was, Wow only chapter 5 and we've already got a scorching yuri kiss, and confession of love! Awesome! I bet the cheater haters will be hating on this one. Well I kind of see their point, but come on as cheating goes it's not that bad. Besides it's yuri cheating so WOOHOO!
Damn when I write it down like that, it sounds bad, huh.

Ah, I see. The general definition of "cheating" I don't find to be a compelling subject, because as this very series goes out of its way to make abundantly clear, that's specific to any given relationship, so any individual reader's definition of "cheating" is basically irrelevant to a particular story.

A number of readers do seem to react to narrative developments as if to say, "This situation now meets my definition of cheating, therefore off with the character's head!" or "This situation does not yet meet my definition of cheating, therefore the execution can be postponed."

I have never understood the premise that when a story enables readers to understand how a character might come to cheat, and perhaps to sympathize with that character's situation, it means that those readers must be in favor of cheating in real life--it's such a fundamental category error that I can't quite grasp how it happens.

What the fuck? This is so fucking good. I do remember enjoying Octave.

johnb posted:

Edit: Uh looking back over the coment, people aren't cheater hating like I expected. Must be because it was kind of obvious it was coming and the haters jumped ship. Oh well, I still stand by what I wrote.

Hey good on you for walking that back.

Me? I'm just here for the messy adult yuri. All is as it should be! Though, I'm rather shocked it happened so fast. One part of me wondered, "Ah, is it gonna end soon already..." while the other thinks maybe this is really just the beginning. Hoping for the latter, cos Akiyama Haru really does write different stories than we usually see in this genre.

Honestly, the whole "wow this comment section condones cheating!!" statements and implications are getting kind of stale, if not outright annoying. I don't really get how hard it is to understand that it makes for a more interesting story and juicy drama, but it's still just a story. It's kind of insulting to insinuate that just because someone finds the drama created by cheating as interesting or engaging story-wise that they condone the acts in real life. The hell's up with that.

I'm kinda glad to see the story didn't meander with the usual "will they, won't they", and that the cheating feels less out of place than in Octave. I tend to like stories that explore comphet and its implications, and it feels like this is where this one is going? At the very least, it feels more mature.

last edited at Jun 4, 2022 8:19PM

I have never understood the premise that when a story enables readers to understand how a character might come to cheat, and perhaps to sympathize with that character's situation, it means that those readers must be in favor of cheating in real life--it's such a fundamental category error that I can't quite grasp how it happens.

I think one of my favorite saying, paraphased from Chris Rock sums it up quite nicely. "I don't condone that character's cheating, but I understand."

last edited at Jun 4, 2022 9:26PM

Sorry, I don't remember their names easily just now and I'm too lazy to go and check. I hope they don't ditch the polyamory themes, and have it be the case that the bride-to-be picks the lady wedding planner over all of her other partners. I really hope this story continues to explore the complexities of (discovering) polyamory, especially as closeted bisexuals.

I don't want it to be a case of "they were both lesbians all along!" We have stories like that already, and there will be more. Genuine polyamorous/bisexual stories are a lot more rare by comparison.

Honestly, the whole "wow this comment section condones cheating!!" statements and implications are getting kind of stale, if not outright annoying. I don't really get how hard it is to understand that it makes for a more interesting story and juicy drama, but it's still just a story. It's kind of insulting to insinuate that just because someone finds the drama created by cheating as interesting or engaging story-wise that they condone the acts in real life. The hell's up with that.

It's really not that common. Hell, as you can see from the following quote, it's so uncommon, this johnb had to walk back a comment about how people do this.

Edit: Uh looking back over the coment, people aren't cheater hating like I expected. Must be because it was kind of obvious it was coming and the haters jumped ship. Oh well, I still stand by what I wrote.

Are there some? Sure. But there's far more people complaining about people like that than there are people like that. And I'd really like it to stop. It derails conversation so hard for a manga that is quite good and shouldn't be mired in controversy that is only barely there. And not just for cheating, but for anything that's considered bad to do. Cheating, noncon, loli stuff.

last edited at Jun 5, 2022 3:11AM

And not just for cheating, but for anything that's considered bad to do. Cheating, noncon, loli stuff.

Gay makes everything okay.

I don't want it to be a case of "they were both lesbians all along!" We have stories like that already, and there will be more. Genuine polyamorous/bisexual stories are a lot more rare by comparison.

Here's a possibly controversial take that people in the comment section seem to be looking for:

Maybe those stories are more rare because they more rarely work out in reality? Most people who say they're bisexual are often in a pretty darn straight looking relationship, and can't be bothered to foster a long-term poly one. They usually just want a fling. And being in a straight relationship is easier to come by then a gay one.

People who would go out of their way to assume other people's taste relates to their irl is a sight of saddening. "Cheating" tag is a form of drama, and lo and behold, most people enjoy dramas on various genres. So what's the point of moral correction here?

"Cheating is worse than violence"

People who would go out of their way to assume other people's taste relates to their irl is a sight of saddening. "Cheating" tag is a form of drama, and lo and behold, most people enjoy dramas on various genres. So what's the point of moral correction here?

.

"Cheating is worse than violence"

Literally no one in at least the last four pages has said anything of the sort for either of these things. The closest we get is people arguing over the definition of cheating and whether this is cheating, and the person who said "gay makes it okay" is a bad way of thinking, which is an entirely different topic.

Apparently this classic tweet applies to the Dynasty Scans forum, too.

I'm sorry I'm banging on about this, I'm anxious about being just as annoying, but really, y'all should stop this. Please.

last edited at Jun 6, 2022 1:50AM

Honestly, the whole "wow this comment section condones cheating!!" statements and implications are getting kind of stale, if not outright annoying. I don't really get how hard it is to understand that it makes for a more interesting story and juicy drama, but it's still just a story. It's kind of insulting to insinuate that just because someone finds the drama created by cheating as interesting or engaging story-wise that they condone the acts in real life. The hell's up with that.

It's really not that common. Hell, as you can see from the following quote, it's so uncommon, this johnb had to walk back a comment about how people do this.

I mean, my comment was an indirect response to a recent, sarcastic "Cheating's okay if it's yuri!" comment, so it's not like I'm making up a guy. It's not as common as it was at the start but it's still just as annoying.

Literally no one in at least the last four pages has said anything of the sort for either of these things. The closest we get is people arguing over the definition of cheating and whether this is cheating,...

Arguing?! Excuse me! Intellectual debate, thank you very much. :)

Ngl I didn't think the train would start derailing this early on

Yeon202 posted:

Ngl I didn't think the train would start derailing this early on

YMMV.

On the contrary, I think the train is going full steam ahead.

Yeon202 posted:

Ngl I didn't think the train would start derailing this early on

YMMV.

On the contrary, I think the train is going full steam ahead.

No what I meant is, I didn't think she'd cheat on Jun this early on (5th chapt) (also sorry if I'm getting it wrong I don't understand YMMV)

To be frank, I've been wondering what exactly she was doing with Jun in the first place.
They're not hostile one to another... But to me, what they have is not love. It looks like marrying because of societal obligations, or something of a similar vein.

He loves her... But all the smiles, all her reactions... Don't they seem a little forced to you?
Also, she feels no connections toward her own marriage, and yeah, I'm sure some people work that way, but then they don't get swayed as she did by a woman they barely knew.
And, if the IS having feelings of love. That means that something in the relationship must change or is not going as well as it should.
cheating doesn't mean you don't love your current partner, it means that for some reason, the relationship doesn't work. sometimes it can be fixed, sometimes it cannot.
To me, our lead protagonist here is either a repressed lesbian who just never realized it or a repressed polyamorous/bisexual person stuck in a monogamic relationship. There's also the societal context: in japan, women are expected to marry sooner rather than later.
So yeah, she could be sticking to conformity because that's all she knows...

A lot of people see cheating as an amoral thing. and they are quick to condemn it and judge it. And sure, sometimes it's just some a**hole with issues and manipulatives tendencies... But is sometimes also a sign that something in the relationship is amiss and could maybe be fixed.

For example, Mizuki is clearly, from the start, keeping quiet about the lack of connection to her own marriage. Instead of talking to Jun, and expressing what she feels, and what she wants, she bottles it up and leaves it on the side.
There's a communication issue. and it was there even before she met Tsuzuki at all, so it can't be pinned to that.

TL:DR, I believe people cheat for a reason. It can be valid (Lesbian stuck in hetero relationship) It can be scummy (A player who just put as many women in his bed just because he can) or it can be complicated. (Like a person who is in a loving monogamous relationship but is actually, unbeknownst to them, polyamorous.) but they always cheat for a reason. and just putting the blame on them is easy, but it's not necessarily fair to them.

Then again, the best thing to do in this case is to go to your partner and discuss that all things are not as dandy as they seem, but that you wanna fix them. Or if you can't fix it, to just say stop and explain to your partner that what you have is simply unsustainable and that it reached its end. But that's brain. And love isn't Brain, it's blood, screaming at you to do its will. (go ahead and find what I'm referencing here if ya want)
So yeah, that's my take on this.

last edited at Jun 26, 2022 10:27AM

I don't want it to be a case of "they were both lesbians all along!" We have stories like that already, and there will be more. Genuine polyamorous/bisexual stories are a lot more rare by comparison.

Here's a possibly controversial take that people in the comment section seem to be looking for:

Maybe those stories are more rare because they more rarely work out in reality? Most people who say they're bisexual are often in a pretty darn straight looking relationship, and can't be bothered to foster a long-term poly one. They usually just want a fling. And being in a straight relationship is easier to come by then a gay one.

It's "rare" in reality because both bisexuality and polyamory are actively discouraged by society.

Even from chapter 1 it felt like she never really wanted to marry her boyfriend so im not surprised by this, but she really needs to figure this out before she hurts him, and herself even more

last edited at Jun 28, 2022 4:02PM

Even from chapter 1 it felt like she never really wanted to marry her boyfriend so im not surprised by this, but she really needs to figure this out before she hurts him, and herself even more

yeah I'm actually looking forward to seeing how Mizuki will handle her relationship with Jun going forward, because she sure seems to want nothing more than to get closer to Tsuzuki.

Kissed her, almost got invited to an appartment where things could only get, hot, and have no regret for it. wondering what would have happened if she said yes.
Feeling guilt for Jun, yeah, but no regret over what she did.
It doesn't invalidate the poly route, but I'd say it's hinting a break-up with Jun right now... BUT. That could be only to subvert our expectations, which would be a nice surprise... So yeah. We're still in an uncertain part of the story, let's see where it goes.

How casually Nanami is fine with what happened while Mizuki is torn up about it is everything I had hoped for from this series.

This series is so awkward but I can't look away. I guess I just really dislike Poly stuff because I really just don't see what she does in Nanami knowing she has two people that we know of if not even more people she's banging and being with. Mizuki def doesn't need to marry Jun but I don't think it will be any easier if she got into a relationship with Nanami either. She's met her just a few times and is just instantly in love with her... I find almost all of the time they are together awkward AF.