Someone will be by with the links, I'm sure, but I think Kasumi is the one who suggested living together after high school; I remember noticing that Sakurako was surprised by that (which I thought was evidence against their being in a 'relationship' at the time.)

Dmnit! It still feels like the emotional dynamics between Sakurako and Kasumi is out of balance. While Sakurako is obviously all in, on their relationship, it still feels like Kasumi is just using it as a marriage of convenience.

am I reading this right? Am I just seeing things or is this manga foreshadowing Sakurako and Kasumi getting married eventually, like I'm gonna be honest here. I cannot see this chapter as anything other than that, it's sowing the seeds right now right???

It's the classic moment so common in romantic fare when somebody tells the dumb/clueless mc: "If you want to spend your whole life with your partner, it means you two should get MARRIED!!" and the mc is hit by enlightenment and realization. Next chapter: Sakurako no puroposu?

I mean, there was a realization, but quite to the opposite effect. For Sakurako, there clearly is no real need for anything more than just to decide you want to stay together.

Of course, there being no need for it does not mean they won't still eventually take that step for various other reasons.

Someone will be by with the links, I'm sure, but I think Kasumi is the one who suggested living together after high school; I remember noticing that Sakurako was surprised by that (which I thought was evidence against their being in a 'relationship' at the time.)

Ask and you shall receive.

Dmnit! It still feels like the emotional dynamics between Sakurako and Kasumi is out of balance. While Sakurako is obviously all in, on their relationship, it still feels like Kasumi is just using it as a marriage of convenience.

No. You’re too much of a yuri worrier. Kasumi is just as all-in as Sakurako.

Given her personality quirks, maybe more so.

Dmnit! It still feels like the emotional dynamics between Sakurako and Kasumi is out of balance. While Sakurako is obviously all in, on their relationship, it still feels like Kasumi is just using it as a marriage of convenience.

Kasumi is as in as Sakurako.
She's just a lazy fooker.

Dmnit! It still feels like the emotional dynamics between Sakurako and Kasumi is out of balance. While Sakurako is obviously all in, on their relationship, it still feels like Kasumi is just using it as a marriage of convenience.

Kasumi is as in as Sakurako.
She's just a lazy fooker.

this

Dmnit! It still feels like the emotional dynamics between Sakurako and Kasumi is out of balance. While Sakurako is obviously all in, on their relationship, it still feels like Kasumi is just using it as a marriage of convenience.

No. You’re too much of a yuri worrier. Kasumi is just as all-in as Sakurako.

A yurier, one might say.

"Adult life" and "office lady" tags should be deserved now!

Would be cool if we eventually reach "retired life" and "elderly couple"...

Been re-reading.
I still think the best description of the relationship is "the author being annoyingly coy, even for non-standard relationships".
Possibly including developments happening off-screen; if so, possibly between two points:

P1: Sakurako is surprised when Kasumi suggests they keep living together after high school. S clearly thought they were 'just' together as school roommates, not in some sort of committed relationship, and would unfortunately go their own ways after high school. (Later, she's surprised when K suggests they go to the same college, S thought K would be against that.)

P2: Kasumi spends the day naked (apart from panties) lying in S's lap, and S isn't even that flustered about it. With K making doe-eyes to keep S from doing anything else, even cooking, and afterwards boasting about feeling refreshed from her Sakurako-ness charge. And feeding S pizza from behind as they spoon during TV.

Somehow S went from "I am honestly surprised you want to keep me around" to "I have naked crush in my lap and it's not a big deal."

I'm not gonna claim to be the authority on the matter, but for what it's worth, I'm gray ace and Kasumi can definitely be read as ace-spec if you ask me.

Like damn, she is living the dream. A wife galpal who cherishes and adores her and doesn't insist on getting more than what Kasumi is comfortable giving?

That's some fuckin' relationship goals right there.

...I imagine it probably says something about either myself or society that my criteria for "the dream" is mostly comprised of "being loved" and "not being pressured into doing things that make me unhappy".

edit: incidentally, anyone who still has concerns they don't feel the same way about each other should probably consult this page where Yukiko goes out of her way to spell it out for you. It almost feels like the fifth panel is just talking about her readers.

Fortunately it seems there's fewer people still confused about it these days. We're progressing as a species! Hooray!

last edited at Dec 22, 2021 9:22PM

hah, gay.

Oh dear... I had completely forgotten my half-asleep ravings from a while ago. I owe a few people here some replies.

She will never take a single step unless Kasumi does so first.

luinthoron said:
That... actually makes so much sense when you think about it. There have been a lot of times when people have questioned Kasumi's feelings, and all the times others including me have been pointing out how Kasumi actually tends to be the one moving their relationship forward.

Yes, not to mention Kasumi initiated their first kiss (whether you consider it the candy mouth to mouth transfer or the "I'm home" kiss. Sakurako would never have initiated a kiss on her own before Kasumi showed the desire to kiss first. The only time she tried was when she was drunk, a state where true desires come to the forefront... which just shows how much she had been holding herself back.

Blaastar said:
I will say (and I don't mean this to invalidate your personal reaction) that I think putting a lot of weight on the term "dating" (or any of the other labelling terms) goes counter to the themes of the story.

That was my point after all, that Yukiko is purposely writing about relationships that struggle with labels. Of course you already know that I think it's not how it will end. Many of Sakurako's anxieties have been directly related to their lack of proper label and established definition for their relationship. Her constant fear of losing Kasumi or being left behind has been fairly understated, but it is always there. Perhaps this is just my limited view of the discussion here, but I believe that people fail to acknowledge how much Sakurako has boxed herself in, truly.

This part, however:

If you do not acknowledge the outside world, you cannot grow.

I'm not so sure how well that works as a generalization for romantic relationships, or for this one in particular. Sakurako and Kasumi have certainly acknowledged the outside world in their career plans and ambitions. And I don't see Sakurako as "limiting" their actual relationship--just what she's willing to say about it to others. The two of them can deepen their existing relationship without necessarily broadcasting about it to the rest of the world.

This is a topic I find hard to put into words, but I don't think we are quite on the same page here. Careers and ambitions are not truly related to their relationship so much aside from Sakurako's intense desire to work at the same company as Kasumi and Kasumi choosing the same one as Sakurako, showing her immense growth since the school days where Sakurako had to basically stalk her to go to the same college and Kasumi barely managed to pick a separate course from her.

My point was more related to social complications, from family to friends, to colleagues and society in general. There are countless situations and issues that require a more clear cut definition and understanding of your relationship that you can convey to outsiders as well. Additionally how can you be sure your view is truly as happy as you can be if you have no proper comparisons? Across the story both Sakurako and Kasumi have collected a lot of perspectives from the other couples and their friends and Sakurako has shown to be conflicted, whether she wants to admit it or not. Kasumi has also learned a lot from the people around her and reflected this on her relationship with Sakurako and it helped her evolve where Sakurako simply deflected or avoided confronting them.
This is why you cannot grow without the outside world. In complete emotional isolation you may find an equilibrium you are comfortable with and I am not saying that is wrong... but there are limits to what a pair can do on their own. I do not consider happiness a stationary construct, it is an ever flowing river and wil be influenced by the curves of the land. It is entirely possible to forcefully chip away at the sides and dig a path straight through, creating your own little canal, but only few have the monumental strength to force a river through land. To continue growing until the ocean is reached, it would be preferable to adapt.

I am happy when I eat cheesecake, but that doesn't mean I couldn't be even happier. But unless someone introduces me to an even better cake or shows me a way to enjoy cheesecake in a different way, I may forever be stuck simply eating the same thing in the same way. A numb pleasant feeling may be just enough for many people, but I argue that it's a waste to never try to find out more.
Kasumi and Sakurako are happy. There is no doubt about that. I simply believe wholeheartedly that there is a lot of room for the two of them to grow and the outside world is what gave them many pushes already.

Licentious Lantern posted:

I will even go so far as to say that I have no desire to see them have sex, although I would love for the sexual component to be acknowledged eventually. That is essential to me, not as proof of their love, but as a necessary evolution of their dynamic. What I mean by that is even more longwinded so I'll save that for another time, but safe to say I am absolutely certain that they actually never had sex yet and that they can't until they reach that evolution I mentioned.

Nevri said:
Why it's necessary though? Is eventually having sex a crucial element of having a relationship with someone? What about asexual people? Are you saying their relationships is stagnant or unable to progress further/deepen without sex? To me it feels like the reason you were hurt by those words is that you have certain expectations and understanding what "dating" someone means and how it should progress, so because to you it seemed like their relationship wasn't progressing, you took it as negative, while that's exactly why Kasumi and Sakurako don't want or can't define their relationship. Because to them it's more complicated, but at the same time, they don't necessary mind it and are fine with it just progressing at its own pace in any direction it'll take them.

Ah. That is the topic I failed to elaborate on due to time and space issues... I suppose it is important to clarify.
First of all, their relationship has a lot of room to evolve beyond only sexual intimacy, I will never claim otherwise. I hope I didn't really make it sound like I consider sex to be absolutely necessary for romantic love to blossom. I quite prefer romantic love over the sexual kind and would always prefer to read about an asexual, but not aromantic character than the reverse.
That being said... Sakurako is not asexual. This is the crux. Sakurako has shown physical desires aplenty and she has directly stated that she will not act out on them unless Kasumi wants her to. Sakurako said, and this was not one of her exaggerated worship statements, that she wants to lick Kasumi all over, touch her hair, kiss her, do things with her that go beyond that... but she won't. There is an ever underlying sexual frustration permeating Sakurako, even if it is far more subtle than it would be in lesser and more base works. One manifestation of many is the fact that Sakurako kisses Kasumi's body while she is asleep. Kasumi pointed out that she leaves hickeys on her when she kisses her while sleeping and Sakurako was surprised, because it was not a conscious action. Another point I already brought up is Sakurako's intense and exaggerated worship of Kasumi in every facette. I believe it is obvious enough that it is not how she truly feels about Kasumi, it is a projection of her feelings, an overflowing outlet of her frustrations. Or rather her sexual desire and intense love mix with her complex about losing Kasumi, but that would go even further than I intend to explain this time, so let's just keep it to the fact that Sakurako is "content" by pouring everything out in outlandish ways. The irony is that she gives Kasumi an easier way to reject her advances by making them so overblown that Kasumi doesn't take them seriously and just gets "creeped out". From some of her reactions I can only see this as intentional as well. She is creating a paper thin barrier that keeps them just at the right distance.

This all goes back to my thesis statement(haha): Sakurako will not move unless Kasumi does so first. Kasumi kisses her, now kissing is fair game. Similarily she always asks Kasumi about any of her physicality first before engaging. Sakurako desires her, but she is too afraid of ever doing something Kasumi would dislike, so she pre-emptively assumes Kasumi won't want something, just to be safe.
Is it fair that Sakurako can never live out her sexual desires? Fairness may be the wrong term, after all, if Kasumi truly was asexual, it is not her fault for being unable to reciprocate. But I don't believe Kasumi is asexual. Kasumi is slowly but surely developing and fermenting her attraction to Sakurako as essential to her life and also grows her repertoire of expressions of affection. Sakurako being stagnant allows Kasumi to take all the steps and eventually she will reach the same point as Sakurako.

This is why I didn't mean to say they need to have sex to evolve their relationship, but rather that having sexual intimacy is proof that Kasumi has gotten to the point she needs to be to truly stand beside Sakurako. When Kasumi desires Sakurako and takes the step Sakurako can't, it will show that they reached the point where Sakurako is allowed to move again.

The other facette that would move them forward is...

Sakurako and Kasumi's issue with labels is very different from the others, because they seem entirely content with their isolated world and never adapt to the outside in the slightest. They have no need for labels, because they are not actually identifying themselves to anyone. They intimately understand each other's feelings and thus do not care enough to work through this. Their happiness is secure, so why change anything? Any outsider will just apply whatever labels they see fit to them and things continue to be smooth.

That's why labels are so dangerous, they make things simpler, but also sets things in stone. Hence when for example you give Kasumi and Sakurako label of "dating" is also give certain expectations with it, just like in your example of Moka and Koruri. So in that sense I can see why they'd want to avoid labeling their relationship, because while it might have make it clearer or easier to understand for other people, it'd also automatically apply certain perceptions and expectations on them.

What happens in your home, in your relationship is private and I don't see why they should have need to explain themselves to anyone. If they had a need to self-reflect or identify their relationship in some clear terms, then they would do that long ago. I don't see how being content with things as they are and not feeling need to label their relationship in clear terms in any way bad. Especially if said relationship doesn't neatly fit into existing labels and expectations. All they'd be doing is limiting themselves and doing it for other people convenience, not them, so why shouldn't they just let people call it w/e, when they have mutual, unspoken understanding of it that's working just fine so far? It's not like their relationship is necessary defined or reliant on their relation with other people and how they perceive them. So I think you saying they're "limiting" and "isolate" themselves is overthinking it a bit. I really dislike your implication that they have to change based on what people around think. Their relationship is their private matter and nobody owns a explanation or need to know about exact status of their relationship. Not everyone has need to identify and explain themselves to other people.

...labels. As this was a major point of my word salad and the main theme of this story to my understanding, I can see why this would cause the biggest reaction. But I kinda seem to have missed the mark by not fully nailing down what I meant.
Ugh.... this is so troublesome, but I somehow have to convey it anyway!
Sakurako... needs ... a more definitive bond. I know I said they are happy and I believe that, but... Sakurako has displayed many many many many many times that she is afraid of Kasumi drifting away from her, that she is a fleeting part of her life. She clings to her like crazy, she follows her everywhere, every moment Kasumi is not in her field of view she is uneasy. Sakurako wants to stay with Kasumi and the Koruri/Moka situation shows exactly what the upside of labels is, why Moka despite being similar to Sakurako chose to embrace labels, why Koruri would choose to date her. You call labels limiting, but the truth is that they tie you together in a positive way as well. Yes, they will never owe people a label, but... they owe each other something. Sakurako has already expressed several times that she wants to marry Kasumi and Kasumi has said she wouldn't mind marrying Sakurako either. Once you are married that goes beyond any reasonable doubt into being spouses. There is no marriage without labels, it's the entire purpose.

You have accepted (perhaps out of your personal beliefs) that labels are unecessary and that Sakurako and Kasumi do not want them at all . I disagree. I truly think that when Sakurako denied dating that was a limitation, not a freedom. You say their relationship is complex, that they would have already come to choose a label sooner if they wanted to, but is that really all there is to it? In the early chapters when they tried to define their relationship they were fine with saying it is many things. But now Sakurako outright denied dating, she did not say "we are more than that", she didn't say "It's complicated", she simply REFUSED the notion. And her follow up was that living together was good enough "for now". She wants more. She needs to tie Kasumi to her, but she is too afraid to do it. It cannot happen until Kasumi wants it too.

The entire arc surrounding the Hawaii trip was a strong reinforcement of this theme. Sakurako clings to memories of their past, needs to always capture Kasumi in her memory to be sure she is not gone. And what does Kasumi do? She makes clear to Sakurako that she is real, that she is here and that she will NOT disappear. Kasumi wanted to jog with Sakurako, Kasumi wanted to work in the same company, Kasumi... keeps tying a ribbon around them and closes in. This is so very important. This is everything that matters. As their relationships becomes more solid, so does their defined boundary. Perhaps they will never use the word "dating", I cannot say. But they will define their relationship in one way or another down the line, that is the endgame.... I think.

Ahem. As for the issue of not labeling themselves to outsiders, remember that Sakurako's mother already approved the marriage. Family deserves a bit of certainty too. And even if nobody will ever ask them for labels or terms, the reality is that the outside world affects them too. They learn, they grow. It's already happening whether you like it or not. Whether anybody tells them, asks them or ignores them, it is bound to happen.

I know she's fictional character etc. but if she thinks she's happy, who are you to tell her she's not? It again feels like other people trying to define and label her relationship for her and telling her she's doing something wrong, when person in question is perfectly fine with things as they are.

But are you so sure you are not imposing your idea of happiness on them? As I said to Blastaar, I believe there is more to happiness than a stagnant status quo. And they both show that they are still growing into that relationship.

last edited at Dec 29, 2021 4:40PM

her immense growth since the school days where Sakurako had to basically stalk her to go to the same college

Though Kasumi was the one who suggested they keep living together after high school, to Sakurako's surprise.

her immense growth since the school days where Sakurako had to basically stalk her to go to the same college

Though Kasumi was the one who suggested they keep living together after high school, to Sakurako's surprise.

Yes, this goes along with the theme of Kasumi taking all the first steps. She was sure she wanted to keep the connection at least, but the difference between back then and now is that she has grown so fond she wants to draw that ribbon tighter. They have reached a point in their lives where they know more clearly what they want and this may well be the final stop on their journey for a long long time, so Kasumi understands that she wants to share this part of their lives completely, both because it makes Sakurako happy and because she herself is happier that way.

I'm going to refrain from responding to your thoughts directly, LiLa, because I've read some chapters ahead and I want to make sure what I might say doesn't come from a different set of information.

But still, I wanted to take the time to say I thought this part you wrote (and the idea it's connected to) was really really lovely:

I do not consider happiness a stationary construct, it is an ever flowing river and will be influenced by the curves of the land. It is entirely possible to forcefully chip away at the sides and dig a path straight through, creating your own little canal, but only few have the monumental strength to force a river through land. To continue growing until the ocean is reached, it would be preferable to adapt.

last edited at Dec 29, 2021 5:29AM

Oh man, remember when they were still in high school, and we readers were just xx years old?

pretty nice.

Time really does fly. I was surprised as well to realize even Hinako is already old enough to drink even in Japan...

Damn now Hinako and Fujino have their own unlabeled queer thing going on

I thought Hinako and Fuji were already dating...

I thought Hinako and Fuji were already dating...

Fake* dating because someone at Hinako's part time job was trying hard on her.

I thought Hinako and Fuji were already dating...

it's funny how this prob has already been said about every single pairing in this manga several times, bc they all have these "how are these two not dating (yet)?" moments

Damn now Hinako and Fujino have their own unlabeled queer thing going on

Another thing to add to the list of things that seem to run in the Kawawa family.
Or, well, at least similarities between the two sisters.

You say potato and I say true life buddy.

Sadly I lack the attention span and patience to keep track of the entire conversation, so I'm just gonna talk about some of my thoughts and hope they're relevant (and coherent :P) enough to mean anything at all.

To me, it's not necessarily that they don't need to take "the next step". They've already taken it, and they continue to take them. Those steps just manifest differently from people's expectations. What, where, if, and when the next next step will be isn't something they're worried about as long as it includes the other. The two frequently mention how they can't even imagine a life without the other beside them. Wherever the next step is, they'll always be together in finding it.

It differs from, say, their friends, whose relationships follow a more standard, predictable pattern. It's not my place to make judgements on which is better, but for what it's worth Sakurako and Kasumi have always been happy with each other right from the start, and they've only gotten closer over time.

What can be read as Sakurako being anxious about losing Kasumi, I've read as being in disbelief that she's been so lucky to have found Kasumi. That moment in Hawaii is one example of these different readings.

Part of what makes this series so interesting and special to me is how it takes a strong look at different ways relationships can form and show themselves, and the ways they progress. I've never seen such a range of views and feelings and motivations across so many characters. For something that is, at it's core, a 4-koma gag manga, the depth and breadth of it is truly amazing.

At any rate, I'm glad that the debate has almost entirely moved on from "are they actually in lesbians tho??". Talking about the nature of the relationship they have is so much more interesting (and worth having) than arguing about whether there's any relationship at all.

Time really does fly. I was surprised as well to realize even Hinako is already old enough to drink even in Japan...

That one really caught me by surprise as well. It's been years, yet it feels like it's been hardly any time at all. A lot of people have gone from one decade of their life into the next reading A Room For Two, myself included. That's quite something.

And definitely not terrifying.
At all.
Nope.
No siree.
I'm perfectly calm about this.

edit: damn, this ended up way longer than I thought it would...

last edited at Jan 6, 2022 5:20PM