i changed my mind. i dont want this love triangle to resolve in two ppls favor i want a polycule

Blergh Hiroko is so friggin’ unreal. Idc if she has an awful past or smth that will explain her behavioural pattern.

I've been thinking for a while that Hiroko is actually self-sabotaging. She's conscious of the age difference and just convinced herself that things won't work out with Ayaka. So she won't allow herself a chance.

Hiroko continues to be nice. No wonder Ayaka got interested in her. Going to be a hard hill to climb though since she's up against Hiroko's desire to keep her sexuality from being known at work, and her denial that stems from that desire. I don't know how you get Hiroko to accept the relationship, when she seems to fear what getting into a relationship with a coworker might mean for her sexual privacy. Tough scenes but Ayaka is up for the job, I think. Hiroko has to decide whether her growing feelings for Ayaka supercedes the consequences of being outed at work. I can't imagine what that would be like in a Japanese work place. She's got to get over that denial first though, she can only pretend not to notice Ayaka for so long, especially with Risa's being so lovely and spunky as well.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 12:51PM

I dunno, after this chapter, I would not call Ayaka's feelings for Hiroko "love" anymore. Admiration, projection, identification, desire to emulate, they can all feel like love but they are inherently unequal and romantic love usually needs to be equitable.

Good Lord Ayaka doesn't deserve the shit she's been through with Hiroko... That crying face shouldn't be a thing...
Thanks for the update!

Quite the change?? I wonder if that was before or after she befriended her friend

I feel like I'm about to be flamed here by my very own hot take, but I feel like Ayaka is on the wrong with how she is going on strong for Hiroko.
We, as readers, know that Hiroko doesn't date co-workers because she does not wish to be outed as a lesbian and because it may have serious reprecussions in her career.
Ayaka could think of it too - because she literally works in the same place. But she doesn't do it, which is something I cannot really be sure I want to be faulting on her. The latest chapter as of now has shown her rather closed off from social interactions and wanting to understand interpersonal dynamics in her office and, in light of it, I figured that all her previous actions were not meant to somehow fit in or try to endear herself to the crew - she only wanted to be noticed by Hiroko.
Which makes her someone socially - not inept - but still lacking in sensibilities.
Her love for Hiroko comes off to me as rather selfish now. She wants Hiroko, but the one whose image she had built in her mind. Which was why she was so distraught when she found out Hiroko was lying.
If you think about it, we all loved bashing Hiroko for agressively not noticing Ayaka, but if we didn't know she was lesbian, or even if we didn't see her inner monologues, we'd think that she either a) misunderstood like an unrealistic clutz (ironically the maybe truth) b) was not gay but felt awkward rejecting Ayaka and tried to give her the hint or c) was gay but did not want to return Ayaka's feelings.
And Ayaka would look like she was possessive and overbearing and couldn't get the hint - maybe she would be seen as pitiful, but by no means would the readers support her as much.
And from the characters' POV is exactly how the characters see the story.
Besides, apart from being in love with Hiroko, what else does she want? What is her deal apart from this fixation? What will she even do when she gets together with Hiroko?
What I'm trying to say is that they both have faults and they should both work on them because even if they got together at this point it would not end well.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 1:26PM

I dunno, after this chapter, I would not call Ayaka's feelings for Hiroko "love" anymore. Admiration, projection, identification, desire to emulate, they can all feel like love but they are inherently unequal and romantic love usually needs to be equitable.

Really, I don't buy this. It sounds more like it comes from pleasant but semi-bogus self-help stuff than from real people. Real stuff is messy.

(snippage) I figured that all her previous actions were not meant to somehow fit in or try to endear herself to the crew - she only wanted to be noticed by Hiroko.
Which makes her someone socially - not inept - but still lacking in sensibilities.
Her love for Hiroko comes off to me as rather selfish now. She wants Hiroko, but the one whose image she had built in her mind. Which was why she was so distraught when she found out Hiroko was lying.

Well, yeah. But go figure. All we ever have is the image of people we build in our mind, based on the "them" they present to us. And almost inevitably, we fall for people before our successive approximations from seeing them in many situations get very reliable. You fall in love based on the information you have, not the information you want.

And yes, Ayaka is somewhat lacking in social sensibilities. And yes, her love is somewhat selfish, driving her to do somewhat foolish things. But personally, I don't really respect a love that doesn't have at least a bit of that in it. I don't feel like someone really loves a person hard if they're not willing to push themselves for it. Ayaka's a bit extreme.

If you think about it, we all loved bashing Hiroko for agressively not noticing Ayaka, but if we didn't know she was lesbian, or even if we didn't see her inner monologues, we'd think that she either a) misunderstood like an unrealistic clutz (ironically the maybe truth) b) was not gay but felt awkward rejecting Ayaka and tried to give her the hint or c) was gay but did not want to return Ayaka's feelings.

Also true. But, we'd be wrong, as it turns out. I don't think you can say that a judgement based on knowing the truth is inferior because a judgement based on not knowing the truth would be different.

And Ayaka would look like she was possessive amd overbearing and couldn't get the hint - maybe she would be seen as pitiful, but by no means would the readers support her as much.

OK, now this is a serious point. And, Ayaka IS possessive and overbearing and doesn't get the hint. On the other hand, up to this latest one all Hiroko's dodges, since they were designed to deflect a presumed-STRAIGHT girl's supposedly unintentional flirting, were almost perfectly calculated to fail to add up to something that actually turned down genuine advances by a gay girl. Now she has finally explicitly turned Ayaka down acknowledging Ayaka as a gay girl wanting to ask her out, and it has provoked a major crisis for Ayaka, which would have been a crisis even if Hiroko wasn't lying in her rejection--that just complicates it.

Mind you, in a way, it's unfair to both characters to judge them this way, because they are complementary caricatures following the demands of the story. To make the comedy, they both have to be over the top in their own direction--Hiroko has to be ridiculously deliberately obtuse to make it funny, but also Ayaka has to be insanely aggressive for the story not to just end, and to furnish stuff for Hiroko to be ridiculously obtuse about. If Ayaka accepted being crushed like most normal people, this would have ended at around chapter 2.

It does seem like for both characters we're gradually seeing backgrounds and things that kind of justify their personalities and attitudes being they way they are. And I respect that. But let's face it, this is not a case of the backgrounds existing and organically generating they way they interact, it's a case of the author wanting them to interact that way and coming up with decent excuses/justifications for why they might do that.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 1:49PM

Well, yeah. But go figure. All we ever have is the image of people we build in our mind, based on the "them" they present to us. And almost inevitably, we fall for people before our successive approximations from seeing them in many situations get very reliable. You fall in love based on the information you have, not the information you want.

And yes, Ayaka is somewhat lacking in social sensibilities. And yes, her love is somewhat selfish, driving her to do somewhat foolish things. But personally, I don't really respect a love that doesn't have at least a bit of that in it. I don't feel like someone really loves a person hard if they're not willing to push themselves for it. Ayaka's a bit extreme.

OK, now this is a serious point. And, Ayaka IS possessive and overbearing and doesn't get the hint. On the other hand, up to this latest one all Hiroko's dodges, since they were designed to deflect a presumed-STRAIGHT girl's supposedly unintentional flirting, were almost perfectly calculated to fail to add up to something that actually turned down genuine advances by a gay girl. Now she has finally explicitly turned Ayaka down acknowledging Ayaka as a gay girl wanting to ask her out, and it has provoked a major crisis for Ayaka, which would have been a crisis even if Hiroko wasn't lying in her rejection--that just complicates it.

Just commenting to say I thought your assessment was really interesting, especially about what we define as love and how we can truly "know" a person before falling in love, but also about the crossroads Ayaka is now at (how this rejection is different from the others). Also this was a past interaction, so it's perfectly likely that what started as admiration or inquisitiveness, turned into romantic feelings. Perfectly natural and happens a lot, we all have to start somewhere. I thought all of it was interesting but I don't want to quote and repost the full longer comment so I took out snippets. I'd only disagree with the last paragraph but that's neither here nor there.

Quite the change?? I wonder if that was before or after she befriended her friend

Before since it seems Hiroko is who got Ayaka to open to the other coworkers and she met Risa at work.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 2:09PM

I'm rooting for Ayako no matter how frustrating this whole story and situation has been. I do hope they can have a thorough conversation though instead of the constant back and forth of "i love you senpai" then "but in a straight way right?"

I love the serious turn this story is taking. We could say the first volume is exaggerated comedy and then in the second we actually get into the real implications of their actions. I think it's sort of subversive in a way, it's starts out as a sitcom; absurdly provocative girl makes moves on her senior who is completely oblivious to her advances and turns into something quite grounded in how, actually this relationship is very difficult to pull off.
I don't want to get into the semantics of love, really... but don't think anyone who has a crush like that "loves" the person, I think saying she's "in love" is more accurate because it's more than a crush, right? A crush can be very fleeting. "In love" isn't quite it but it can vary a lot from language to language what we translate as "in love", in english it doesn't quite work because it has the word love in it but I think we're talking about something more akin to infatuation. I think it was quite clear from the start that Ayaka doesn't "love" Hiroko and couldn't have really as she doesn't know her but I think her feelings are still valid and genuine. She is socially awkward and becomes interested in Hiroko who is outgoing - opposites attract. I do hope we see some character development from Ayaka, like her actually getting closer to people and understanding Hiroko's character more deeply. Maybe now that she was rejected she will try to be more outgoing and friendly, hopefully.
I totally agree that her way of chasing Hiroko is totally inappropriate lol and obviously Hiroko is quite dense but the thing is she doesn't really want to date Ayaka/ isn't ready to at this point. She is clearly attracted to her but she's but also she's attracted to any pretty girl she sees also lol... Their feelings aren't exactly mutual anyway.
Obviously I'm totally rooting for them. I can't imagine a world where Ayaka falls for Risa lol... But honestly if this was a real life situation I'd tell Ayaka to forget about Hiroko. Maybe Hiroko is lying but so what? Do you want to be with someone who lies about being straight because they are ashamed? Of course this a story so I hope Hiroko comes around and I hope to see how an actual relationship might work despite the age gap.
This is a bit embarrassing but I've been in a similar situation to Ayaka years ago so I relate to her a lot. Thinking someone might be lying because of the homophobic environment, cluelessly pursuing women and not getting the hint. I've done all of it (obviously not as aggressively; Ayaka irl would be harassing Hiroko, no joke) Girls like Ayaka are in for a rude awakening in the real world lol. But at least in the story maybe Ayaka can be happy so that's all I wish for :P

For all the long-winded Great Wall of Dynasty Forum posts about this situation, I think Ayaka still deserves better than someone who will reflexively lie to her when she shows vulnerability like that.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 2:37PM

I dunno, after this chapter, I would not call Ayaka's feelings for Hiroko "love" anymore. Admiration, projection, identification, desire to emulate, they can all feel like love but they are inherently unequal and romantic love usually needs to be equitable.

Really, I don't buy this. It sounds more like it comes from pleasant but semi-bogus self-help stuff than from real people. Real stuff is messy.

I am sorry I did not manage to get my point across -- I was stressed and didn't have the time to review my post, particularly the second sentence, so I ended up writing something trite. What I intended to convey was that Ayaka idolizes Hiroko because the latter represents what she wants to be professionally. At least, that is how her interest in her started out in the flashback. Ayaka has a deeply-seated insecurity about herself, presumably a anxiety about failure, and latches onto a person who she perceives as perfect, oblivious to the fact that she has only ever seen one of Hiroko's facets, her persona at work. She calls it love and even the manga's title says that, but romantic love in the way I have experienced it is rooted a desire to be with someone, not to be that someone (if your or anyone's experience has been different, I am sorry I cannot say much about it). My point is that Ayaka is chasing a false idol without seeing the shitty person behind it with whom she can actually fall in love.

My point is that Ayaka is chasing a false idol without seeing the shitty person behind it with whom she can actually fall in love.

I agree. Hopefully she will come to love the real Hiroko when she gets to know her though. I think that's what makes the story interesting for me. Even Hiroko doesn't truly know the real Ayaka either, like how Ayaka is actually a geeky film buff (lol idk but could be, there's a pattern with popcorn and films). Would explain her idealized approach to romance XD

I dunno, after this chapter, I would not call Ayaka's feelings for Hiroko "love" anymore. Admiration, projection, identification, desire to emulate, they can all feel like love but they are inherently unequal and romantic love usually needs to be equitable.

Really, I don't buy this. It sounds more like it comes from pleasant but semi-bogus self-help stuff than from real people. Real stuff is messy.

I am sorry I did not manage to get my point across -- I was stressed and didn't have the time to review my post, particularly the second sentence, so I ended up writing something trite. What I intended to convey was that Ayaka idolizes Hiroko because the latter represents what she wants to be professionally. At least, that is how her interest in her started out in the flashback. Ayaka has a deeply-seated insecurity about herself, presumably a anxiety about failure, and latches onto a person who she perceives as perfect, oblivious to the fact that she has only ever seen one of Hiroko's facets, her persona at work. She calls it love and even the manga's title says that, but romantic love in the way I have experienced it is rooted a desire to be with someone, not to be that someone (if your or anyone's experience has been different, I am sorry I cannot say much about it). My point is that Ayaka is chasing a false idol without seeing the shitty person behind it with whom she can actually fall in love.

As clarified, I find that very reasonable.

Y’know, say what you will about this manga, but it warrants hella discussion. With most manga on here the comments come down to “awww that was cute,” so rarely do we get a story that result in several people writing multiple paragraphs of their feelings, breakdowns, and arguments on each chapter.

Can someone bitch slap Hiroko into reality

If Hiroko really wanted Ayaka to stay away, she could stop jerking around with her emotions like this. :/ I feel like Hiroko just enjoys hurting other women, be it by loving and leaving them in the lesbian bar or insisting on both maintaining this facade and giving Ayaka the wrong idea about her. Mayne not enjoys, but she is a cowardly and weak person at heart who has no courage to either be honest or commit to the lie (actually get married so her beard can protect her closet key).

I heard someone say she deserves love even with her damage, and she does but her first steps should be finding a new job where she can live out of the closet and leave women, espeically Ayaka alone. This is advice for anyone reading: Sort out your life before seeking romance or sex unless you have your lies properly backed up and sorted out and ESPECIALLY don't keep being needlesly affectionate toward someome after making a big deal out of rejecting them. No amount of past trauma allows you to drag others into your drama especially if you insist on being untruthful.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 4:18PM

If Hiroko really wanted Ayaka to stay away, she could stop jerking around with her emotions like this. :/ I feel like Hiroko just enjoys hurting other women, be it by loving and leaving them in the lesbian bar or insisting on both maintaining this facade and giving Ayaka the wrong idea about her. Mayne not enjoys, but she is a cowardly and weak person at heart who has no courage to either be honest or commit to the lie (actually get married so her beard can protect her closet key).

I heard someone say she deserves love even with her damage, and she does but her first steps should be finding a new job where she can live out of the closet and leave women, espeically Ayaka alone. This is advice for anyone reading: Sort out your life before seeking romance or sex unless you have your lies properly backed up and sorted out and ESPECIALLY don't keep being needlesly affectionate toward someome after making a big deal out of rejecting them. No amount of past trauma allows you to drag others into your drama especially if you insist on being untruthful.

Remember that Hiroko has only been the pursued. She has never pursued Ayaka. She's not really involving Ayaka in anything. Ayaka is willingly involving herself. Hiroko also does not get to follow Ayaka to her private moments like we can. She has never been in a position to notice Ayaka's hurt feelings and would never assume those feelings were about her anyway. Ayaka deliberately shows Hiroko only her fun (and sometimes drunk) side. So I wouldn't say Hiroko has ever willingly or knowingly hurt Ayaka. In the beginning she didn't even think Ayaka was gay. Then her caution around the workplace led to her second form of denial in an attempt to avoid the uncomfortable reality. The most she's done is lie to keep herself hidden in the workplace, as endless amounts of closeted people do. So really she's been caring the entire time, just oblivious, in different forms of denial and cautious around the workplace. Hiroko has just gone about her days, going to work and being a good team leader. Her relationships at the bar have not been in detail. We do not know that she was a bad person to date, just that she liked to date a lot. Outside of work she's been shown to be completely fine, just like the other bar goers who we like. All of her issues seem to stem from the workplace. And I can't blame her for being that way considering what the workplace is like and what Japanese work places are noted to be like for unconventional people.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 7:53PM

My point is that Ayaka is chasing a false idol without seeing the shitty person behind it with whom she can actually fall in love.

That's a very odd take on this chapter and not at all what I'm reading. It seems obvious to me that what she really wants is specifically figure out Hiroko - heck, she basically is saying as much - so saying she's falling for some false idol or that she's confusing wanting to be somebody with wanting to be with somebody is just plain odd to me ... she isn't, and she doesn't.

Also. 98% of romance writing is actually pretty shit when it comes to delivering any sort of rationale for the supposed romantic attraction. "A meets B, there's a spark"; maybe there's some sort of "she looks hot" and that's that then. This chapter actually goes into why Ayako is attracted to Hiroko and delivers a plausible scenario that's beyond some surface nebulous fated meeting with zero substance - gives the manga a step up on almost all it's romantic-comedy-peers ...

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 5:20PM

At this point, I actually don't want the ship to sail. Ayaka can find someone way better.

Well, yeah. But go figure. All we ever have is the image of people we build in our mind, based on the "them" they present to us. And almost inevitably, we fall for people before our successive approximations from seeing them in many situations get very reliable. You fall in love based on the information you have, not the information you want.

And even independent of that, yuri stories featuring protagonists who fall in love for completely shallow and/or superficial reasons make up like half of this site.

EDIT: scooped by Pyoro!

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 5:44PM

Good Lord Ayaka doesn't deserve the shit she's been through with Hiroko...

Poor girl...

That crying face shouldn't be a thing...

I agree so much.

I dunno, after this chapter, I would not call Ayaka's feelings for Hiroko "love" anymore. Admiration, projection, identification, desire to emulate, they can all feel like love but they are inherently unequal and romantic love usually needs to be equitable.

Really, I don't buy this. It sounds more like it comes from pleasant but semi-bogus self-help stuff than from real people. Real stuff is messy.

I am sorry I did not manage to get my point across -- I was stressed and didn't have the time to review my post, particularly the second sentence, so I ended up writing something trite. What I intended to convey was that Ayaka idolizes Hiroko because the latter represents what she wants to be professionally. At least, that is how her interest in her started out in the flashback. Ayaka has a deeply-seated insecurity about herself, presumably a anxiety about failure, and latches onto a person who she perceives as perfect, oblivious to the fact that she has only ever seen one of Hiroko's facets, her persona at work. She calls it love and even the manga's title says that, but romantic love in the way I have experienced it is rooted a desire to be with someone, not to be that someone (if your or anyone's experience has been different, I am sorry I cannot say much about it). My point is that Ayaka is chasing a false idol without seeing the shitty person behind it with whom she can actually fall in love.

Ehhhh, this isn’t what I got from this at all. Hiroko’s work ethic and how she’s able to be so kind and cheerful peeked her interest, but I do not get her wanting to BE Hiroko, just learn more about her. That’s what is going to be her drive to come in everyday. Dressing up, making her lunch, everything was an attempt to get her attention. She didn’t copy her and Ayaka already has recognized work ethic and performance.