Forum › The Guy She Was Interested in Wasn't a Guy At All discussion
The verdict is GUILTY.
The sentence is HANDHOLDING.
Thank you, Kirin-kun, for clearing that up. Imho it should have been transparently obvious -- I mean, Aya had already realized that Koga had Onii-san's voice, Onii-san's eyes, Onii-san's piercing holes, it was only one more small step to realize Onii-san is Koga -- but judging by some of the previous posts there was indeed a need to straighten it out.
Took me a few moments to get the point. I know, I'm dumb. T_T Poor Aya, I hope she realizes Mitsuki cares deeply about her and they agree with Mitsuki to be dear friends and it eases the pain and suffering in her straight little heart.
Well anyways, now we probably know that Mitsuki singing a song to Aya will probably happen during the cultural festival.
Well anyways, now we probably know that Mitsuki singing a song to Aya will probably happen during the cultural festival.
With you on that.
A chapter or two (at most) of angst then the healing 'song from the heart' to make everything better would be my preferred way to go.
By the way, I don't translate the title of the chapters, even though Agu gives them titles, because Amarrez never did, but in this instance, the title has significance.
This chapter has the serie's title on twitter: 気になってた人が男じゃなかった
Which, in this instance, means "The Guy I Was Interested in Wasn’t a Guy"
So, Agu tells us that Aya indeed realized that Onii-san and Koga are one and the same.
No need to search for other interpretations.
And yet, people are still speculating xD
"The Girl She is Interested in is Actually Not a Guy!"
Well anyways, now we probably know that Mitsuki singing a song to Aya will probably happen during the cultural festival.
With you on that.
A chapter or two (at most) of angst then the healing 'song from the heart' to make everything better would be my preferred way to go.
I hope this means Uncle-san comes back and becomes the ultimate wingman he was set to be.
We're still traumatized by Nettaigyo.
Nettaigyo author also explicitly stated that her story will not be yuri, which was pointed out a number of times to the readers on Dynasty over the course of the manga. Most just willingly disregarded it because the subtext was so thick you could slice it with a knife. That being said, the author there went a step further than Agu and also explicitly stated it will be a work about close friendships and the struggle with loneliness. By comparison, Agu's statement is far more ambiguous.
Point is, if anyone was traumatised by Nettaigyo, they have only themselves to blame.
@flowsthead: "And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response." I... genuinely do not get this part... why would someone equate this with violence in the first place, much less react with violence in return? If this was a situation in real life, the most that would probably happen would be that the people in question would break contact.
...it just depends on the relationship you have and the conversations you've had until this point.
This is the factor I am focusing on. Broadly, I agree with you regarding privacy. In fact, personally, I get extremely annoyed whenever someone tries prodding into any aspects of my privacy, no matter how minute. However, what makes this situation different is that 1) Aya did not prod at all; and 2) Aya was very clearly trying to establish at the very least a friendship, and highly likely also a romance with Mitsuki, which Mitsuki was aware of.
It is not a "relationship they have" (at the moment), but it is "building a future relationship". The reality is that while the other party has no right to demand to know any specifics about you, you also can not build any kind of a relationship without sharing some of that information of your own volition, and the deciding factor here is that Mitsuki enjoys and encourages said relationship, at least in her "onii-san" persona. She is not an innocent bystander swept into this against her will, she is actively building a social interaction that anyone with a modicum of sense ought to know can not go on indefinitely based on lies, direct or by omission, about something as basic as one's identity.
There are also factors here that you did not take into account in the post you pasted me. Mitsuki knows that Aya has a romantic crush on her "onii-san" persona and is pursuing likely more than just mere friendship. Presently she has no reason to think Aya might be into girls, and this then crosses into just straight-up stringing someone along (or at least, it is a reasonable assumption for Mitsuki to have under the circumstances). Like, at what point do we transition from "my privacy" to "cruelty"? Your "it is sexist to demand to know someone's gender" completely fails to take into account that there are relationship that vitally rely on this information, such as sexual pursuits and romance (and Mitsuki knows for a fact that this is the case here).
Like, at one point you kind of lightly touched upon this aspect ("when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board"), though you did not specify gender, instead spending more time developing the religious analogy.
Another point is that Mitsuki is not just some random stranger whom Aya never saw without the mask, she is also Aya's classmate and literally sits there listening to Aya gush about "onii-san", being privy to information that Aya would be deeply embarrassed to share openly within earshot of her actual romantic interest. In a way, Mitsuki is privy to some aspects of Aya's privacy that Aya would probably not be so outspoken with otherwise, while Aya is privy to nothing regarding Mitsuki.
In other words, Mitsuki knows that the other person is pursuing her romantically (and she knows this for a fact thanks to the circumstances of their unequal relationship), she knows this person thinks they are pursuing a guy, she has no reason to think this person might be bi (we as readers are privy to that because of the character bios, and the whole setting surrounding the manga itself, but Mitsuki has none of that knowledge). You have put a lot of emphasis in your post on the present tense, that they are not dating at the moment, but I should think it would be obvious these same standards apply to attempts to date someone just as well.
All of this makes me believe Mitsuki had an obligation, a moral one if no other, to come clean long before now. In fact, I hoped she would come clean of her own volition (though those hopes were quickly diminishing with each chapter, after seeing how desperate she was to keep up the pretence). Being caught, by contrast, is a weaker outcome that did not rely on any of her positive traits finally prevailing.
@Blastaar: I thought it was obvious we were discussing how the readers reacted to and interpreted Mitsuki's actions. How Aya will react is up to the author. This whole "lol, judging fictional characters under real world standards / ethics tribunal / morality court" shtick has gotten old over the years, especially since you only apply it very selectively, mainly when you encounter an unfavourable remark under a work you personally like.
last edited at Aug 21, 2022 7:57PM
But that doesn't hold true for 99% of interactions. Your coworkers, your customers, your classmates, and any other strangers in your life have no right to know that information about you. Acting like this is a deception when they aren't dating is to presume ownership of that aspect of another person's privacy. Just as it would be xenophobic to demand to know where someone was born before interacting with them, and racist to demand to know the color of their skin, it would be sexist/transphobic to demand the same for their gender.
Guess im all bc i actually do ask that bc im curious af
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I'm gonna delete some of this to simplify the response, but I did read it all.
@flowsthead: "And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response." I... genuinely do not get this part... why would someone equate this with violence in the first place, much less react with violence in return? If this was a situation in real life, the most that would probably happen would be that the people in question would break contact.
So that part was in response to a question about how demanding to know someone's gender can be transphobic, and trans people have faced a lot of violence by just the reveal of their being trans. I can explain more if you want, but the decision to not be open about how you identify in real world situations has often been done for self protection, and is still being done today.
She is not an innocent bystander swept into this against her will, she is actively building a social interaction that anyone with a modicum of sense ought to know can not go on indefinitely based on lies, direct or by omission, about something as basic as one's identity.
In the sense that she overheard Aya say she was attracted to her record store persona, yes Mitsuki has knowledge of the situation that does not make this a choice against her will. And she is an active participant. But Aya hasn't made her feelings known to the record store persona, so I still don't think Mitsuki has any kind of imperative to reveal herself. She would dress the way she does anyway for her job. The only time she hid herself on purpose was at the festival, which is definitely an active part of maintaining the disguise. It's not ideal, but there are real world ramifications to being gay that regardless if Mitsuki vocalizes them or not factor into her being hesitant to reveal herself.
Like, at one point you kind of lightly touched upon this aspect ("when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board"), though you did not specify gender, instead spending more time developing the religious analogy.
Yeah, because I do acknowledge that if they were to start dating then Mitsuki should reveal herself. But they aren't dating. And while they aren't dating, I don't think she has to. Aya has a crush, but that's no reason to assume that she will actually do something about that crush.
You have put a lot of emphasis in your post on the present tense, that they are not dating at the moment, but I should think it would be obvious these same standards apply to attempts to date someone just as well.
This is like some Minority Report talking about future crimes kind of thought process to me. They aren't dating. Unless their friendship depends on the gender of Mitsuki, rather than the fact they both like the same type of music, then it shouldn't matter until one of them confesses.
All of this makes me believe Mitsuki had an obligation, a moral one if no other, to come clean long before now. In fact, I hoped she would come clean of her own volition (though those hopes were quickly diminishing with each chapter, after seeing how desperate she was to keep up the pretence). Being caught, by contrast, is a weaker outcome that did not rely on any of her positive traits finally prevailing.
Look, we may just disagree on this. For you, the moral imperative is about being above board about everything with the understanding that they may never speak again if Mitsuki reveals herself. I think even assuming that the lie by omission applies here, which I don't necessarily, that is an understandable moral failing on Mitsuki's part in the service of a friendship she wouldn't otherwise have.
I think most of us understand why historically there have been many women who have dressed or acted as men to be able to do things they wouldn't otherwise have been able to do. And we do not begrudge their lies there because they are in the service of fighting for something that we would agree with, for women to be given the opportunity to do something they would not otherwise be allowed to do.
The difference here is obviously that Mitsuki isn't doing this to fight sexism, it's just a personal relationship between two people. But Mitsuki is also not lying about any other aspect of herself. She's not changing how she dresses at work. She's not pretending to like things that Aya likes for the sake of maintaining that friendship. And these are all things that are regularly given as advice for people hoping to date. The one part that does not match is that Aya's assumption of Mitsuki's gender is wrong. I'm absolutely not going to blame Mitsuki for that. I think the same historical thought process applies on a smaller scale. If the idea is, "we wouldn't be talking to each other if you knew I was a girl" in the same way that, "I wouldn't be allowed to do this job if you knew I was a woman", then that's pretty fucked up logic.
So personally, no, I don't think Mitsuki has a moral obligation until one of them confesses romantic feelings, regardless of information she might have about Aya's interest. If Aya confessed chapter 1 and Mitsuki rejected her, I don't think she would have had an obligation to correct her on her gender assumptions. If Aya confessed chapter 15 and Mitsuki said, "I would say yes, but would you still want to date me if you knew I was a girl" and revealed herself then, I still wouldn't have a problem with Mitsuki. Neither of those things will happen since Aya found out on her own, but the point is the same.
@Blastaar: I thought it was obvious we were discussing how the readers reacted to and interpreted Mitsuki's actions. How Aya will react is up to the author. This whole "lol, judging fictional characters under real world standards / ethics tribunal / morality court" shtick has gotten old over the years, especially since you only apply it very selectively, mainly when you encounter an unfavourable remark under a work you personally like.
That last is quite false, but if it makes you feel better to believe it, knock yourself out.
Watching people create walls o’ self-righteousness over fictional characters not behaving up to optimal ethical standards (as determined by Dynasty readers) has gotten old as well, particularly since “people behaving badly” is practically the ur-definition of “story.”
I guess we’ll just have to grow old together.
last edited at Aug 21, 2022 8:48PM
We're still traumatized by Nettaigyo.
eh really ? i loved everything in this series tbh, it was pure bliss for me
I appreciate the passionate responses people here have shown about human rights. Stories reflect people and as our understand of what people can be evolves, that deepens stories rather than entrenches cliches. It's enriching to have more perspectives to examine things.
What if Mitsuki was a trans man? Let's assume for a moment that Aya got the gender right but not the assigned sex. After all Mitsuki's real self is cool and stylish, she's stealth at school, and she swears to stop wearing skirts when she's an adult. In that sort of situation there's even more reasons why Mitsuki's real persona would be a secret and both sides of that dual life would be separated. There's no reason the (low-testosterone) body matters at this point. The "boku" pronoun Mitsuki has used isn't out of line for women. If Mitsuki was a man there would be no reason so far to ever talk about sex assigned at birth. And your junk only needs to be mentioned immediately before a potential situation to use it comes up because coming out and spilling your medical information to someone carries large social and emotional risks, and a risk of physical violence. Awkwardness can be survived, and you should minimize putting yourself at a disadvantage to someone you don't trust.
If sexuality wasn't at issue here, would the deception-by-omission be different? Let's say a popular person (whatever gender) liked a cool record store employee (of a gender they know they're attracted to). If the employee was secretly also the lanky quiet person sitting next to the popular person in class, with no gender issue, they may be delaying the reveal because it's all kinds of awkward. So far the relationship hasn't passed any barriers beyond the platonic range. I think this would carry if the employee was a gender they know the popular person is attracted to though not the one the popular person thinks they are. There are a lot of grounds for mutual embarrassment even if sexuality was less of a potential conflict here.
The real situation has elements of those two examples, and not much else. Gender or birth sex let alone what's in someone's pants does not obligate them to break their privacy and trust others with their well-being. Delaying the awkwardness is otherwise reasonable at this point in the relationship. Avoiding potential awkwardness and embarrassment, for liking a person or employing a person, are not reasons for them to share information with you that would not necessarily have changed their actions, especially with them bearing all or most of the social, emotional, and physical risk.
Mitsuki is not responsible for Aya having a crush on her. The potential embarrassment of flirting with someone not of a gender you like, because their gender expression was your type, is not an embarrassment worth someone else bending over backwards for you. The situation may be a teen drama tragedy for Aya, especially as it seems to be her first love, but at this platonic point in the relationship it's tragic in the funny-in-retrospect way like misplacing your lunch -- not tragic like someone stealing from her. The conflict is much more interesting when we can see both sides of it, without getting weirdly entitled about someone owing someone else.
last edited at Aug 25, 2022 5:40PM
I love this chapter. It's refreshing to read something emotionally grounded for a change and I hope they explore Aya's feelings more rather than quickly move past the misunderstanding.
Also I hate to say it but it feels like a platonic ending fits this series better, much as it pains me because this comic had the best yearning expressions art ever.
last edited at Aug 21, 2022 10:39PM
Mitsuki is not responsible for Aya having a crush on her. The potential embarrassment of flirting with someone not of a gender you like, because their gender expression was your type, is not an embarrassment worth someone else bending over backwards for you. The situation may be a teen drama tragedy for Aya, especially as it seems to be her first love, but at this platonic point in the relationship it's tragic in the funny-in-retrospect way like misplacing your lunch -- not tragic like someone stealing from her. The conflict is much more interesting when we can see both sides of it, without getting weirdly entitled about someone owing someone else.
^^^^ exactly
I only came here to say Aya is blaming herself, and I'm not even 100% sure Aya grasps the situation yet. I guess we'll see how Aya thinks about the friendless girl who has basically only smiled at her but otherwise kept to herself... If she buys into Mitsuki's mood, how could she expect someone like that would throw away a close friendship, even if Aya is someone Mitsuki could never fall for? Mitsuki did the same flattered accidental flirting when she was surprised by Aya at work (and had planned to come out as female to Aya that day), and when Aya used Mitsuki as an excuse to not be alone with the guy. So Aya noticed Mitsuki's identity just after telling a half truth and using Mitsuki as a convenient shield. Aya accidentally became a lonely girl's only friend, by crushing on her, and never outright talking gender. Aya didn't think anything out, may not have expected much progress on the crush, definitely didn't expect to be attracted to a woman, may even think Mitsuki is romantically dense, and now the mortification is hitting.
And I will never recommend Nettaigyo, but your mileage may vary. It had an uncomfortable resonance of character loneliness that I'm sure is a beautiful aesthetic to some, but for me it felt like indistinct mud. I don't feel burned, or that the author wasted my time, though I guess it would have been better to never start it so I didn't have to finish.
In any case I don't think this story will get that muddy even if the mistaken attraction doesn't lead to dating (give that time though).
Is this still on the yuri route?
Let me guess, Aya thinks the "guy" sent her playlist to Mitsuki
Let me guess, Aya thinks the "guy" sent her playlist to Mitsuki
I think the story is finally lining up with the original images.
Or at the very least being referenced.
if she did come to the conclusion that Koga is listening to "Onii-san's" playlist because he sent it to her as well, I'm surprised she didn't come up with the more plausible one, which is that "Onii-san" and Koga are siblings. Hopefully this means she actually figured it out once and for all.
We're still traumatized by Nettaigyo.
eh really ? i loved everything in this series tbh, it was pure bliss for me
Same, still not just one of the best yuri manga I've ever read, but one of my absolute favorites regardless of genre.
We're still traumatized by Nettaigyo.
eh really ? i loved everything in this series tbh, it was pure bliss for me
Same, still not just one of the best yuri manga I've ever read, but one of my absolute favorites regardless of genre.
I liked almost all of it a lot, but as an earlier commenter said, the massive subtext almost overwhelmed the literal text, as if it took more effort to make it not yuri than it would have been to just follow the logic of the story and characters.
Still an excellent read, though, with well-developed and appealing characters. And a prime example of creators meaning a variety of things when they say they don’t think of their story as being yuri.
I think the story is finally lining up with the original images.
Or at the very least being referenced.
Nice observation!