Oh nooo she doesn't look happy!

This chapter makes me worry, not because of anything happening in the story, I think they'll work it out, but because I think this means we'll be finishing this story soon. This feels like a point of no return.

Unless this goes on after they start dating! :o I like when stories do that.

To add a layer to your worries, individual chapters have their own titles in the original and these were not translated in the scanlated version, also the overall title of the series is not actually using the correct tense in English. The series is actually titled "The One She Is Interested in Wasn't a Guy", present tense. This chapter, however, is titled "The One She Was Interested in Wasn't a Guy", past tense (ironically, the tense the scanlated version has been incorrectly using since the beginning).

I feel bad for Aya because this means she is really heartbroken. This was probably her first love and it ended with her finding out the person was lying and that they are not who she thought they were.

Well, DECEPTIVE. I'm not sure she has actually made any false claims--like, I don't think the record store employee ever said "By the way, in case you're wondering, I'm totally a guy and a separate person from your female classmate!" So she hasn't, like, lied as such.

The author said that instead of being a work that could be classified as Yuri, the story is about the relationship between women (which can, indeed, mean friendship; please let’s not come back to the yuri or yurin’t debate).

Sumiko uses the word "aijou" in that interview, which specifically means "love" or "affection."

"Ai" is all forms of love: parent and child, brother and sister, romantic, platonic, etc. If you want to talk specifically about passionate (sexual) love then "koi" is the right word to use. When the author said that her story was not about yuri but rather about "generic love" between women she prolly meant that there won't be a lesbian/sexual side in the relationship between Aya and Mitsuki. (But maybe I'm wrong...)

Well, that would require a major transformation in the relationship though. I mean, the basic feelings our gyaru has had about the mysterious record store employee has been very much weak-at-the-knees infatuation, not "Gosh, what a nice person, I'd like to build a friendly relationship based on mutual understanding". And indeed, the relationship with the classmate has revolved around intermittent flashes of that same kind of doki-doki causing confusion.

In the case of both the version she thought was a guy and the version she knows is a girl, the feelings have been revolving around lightning bolts of desire and passion, not sisterly platonic stuff. So it would be weird if they ended up just buddies.

^I agree. She was aware of the misunderstanding and chose to let it stand- and even tried to make sure the misunderstanding wasn't found it- which falls short of lying imo. One could say she had her own reasons for wanting to not be found out- she had no obligation to clear it up.

It still wasnt a great thing to do - but this manga doesn't seem like the type to go super angsty so I'm guessing it wont be held against her for long or at all and whatever excuse she has will be excepted.

p.s the fact the title has switched to past tense doesn't guarantee she has figured out they are the same person- if Oosawa thinks she is 'his' gf she might have given up on 'him'.

last edited at Aug 21, 2022 4:10PM

woooohoooo! ch.18 have set off 4 pages in the comment sections with more to come.

I hope Aya's heart-shaped box won't be crush by this realization. the Prince, soon to be formerly known as the record store guy, Mitsuki will have to come clean in the next few chapters.

So now that she knows her oniisan is a girl, she has fallen into despair. Thankfully, I trust this author not to speedrun the relationship at this point

I feel like I'd be fine if they just slowly made up and became friends. It has the potential to be such a nice relationship regardless of how far it goes

I agree. I don't want it to go the "he's a girl so that must mean I'm gay" route, since that would be unrealistic. Instead it should start with them being friends and her learning to love Koga for who she is instead of who she thought she was.

While i generally agree, a lot of Aya's attraction to Mitsuki’s work persona is based on mutual interests etc over just liking them based on their "maleness" so for the most part those seeds are already there.

The author said that instead of being a work that could be classified as Yuri, the story is about the relationship between women (which can, indeed, mean friendship; please let’s not come back to the yuri or yurin’t debate).

Sumiko uses the word "aijou" in that interview, which specifically means "love" or "affection."

"Ai" is all forms of love: parent and child, brother and sister, romantic, platonic, etc. If you want to talk specifically about passionate (sexual) love then "koi" is the right word to use. When the author said that her story was not about yuri but rather about "generic love" between women she prolly meant that there won't be a lesbian/sexual side in the relationship between Aya and Mitsuki. (But maybe I'm wrong...)

Maybe translating the entire quote will make it clearer:

"I'm not sure whether the manga I'm writing is what people call 'yuri.' It's more like 'love between women'; I feel a fascination toward that theme. There was a time when I myself struggled [she uses "nayamu" here] with my sexuality, so it makes me very happy to see people with different sexualities, backgrounds, lives, and occupations read the stories and characters born from that time [in my life]. Please continue to kindly watch over Mitsuki and Aya."

If this story and these characters are inspired by the period in Sumiko's life when she was struggling with her own sexuality, I think it's safe to say they're not just going to be straight, platonic friends.

Maybe translating the entire quote will make it clearer:

"I'm not sure whether the manga I'm writing is what people call 'yuri.' It's more like 'love between women'; I feel a fascination toward that theme. There was a time when I myself struggled [she uses "nayamu" here] with my sexuality, so it makes me very happy to see people with different sexualities, backgrounds, lives, and occupations read the stories and characters born from that time [in my life]. Please continue to kindly watch over Mitsuki and Aya."

If this story and these characters are inspired by the period in Sumiko's life when she was struggling with her own sexuality, I think it's safe to say they're not just going to be straight, platonic friends.

Or she realized she was straight but still has a fetish for lesbian relationships.

It has repeatedly come up with manga creators that a lot of them consider "Yuri" a specific genre with specific tropes. I would caution people to just read the story and interpret it on it's own terms.

Yeah I saw this coming. And it's not "Oh no, I'm gay" it's "Oh no, I was lied to." And in all honesty: She's justified in that reaction.

She found out! [crab_rave.gif]

^@Heavensrun

Judging from other statements from mangaka about whether a particular story was or was going to be yuri or not, it’s pretty clear that the definition of what they mean by “what people call ‘yuri’” varies pretty widely (i.e., the creator says “I wouldn’t call it yuri,” and sometimes we definitely would, and other times not.)

For most purposes I’m all in favor of Dynasty’s wide definition of yuri, but statements like these demonstrate that’s certainly not how everyone defines the genre.

last edited at Aug 21, 2022 5:19PM

^I agree. She was aware of the misunderstanding and chose to let it stand- and even tried to make sure the misunderstanding wasn't found it- which falls short of lying imo.

It does not fall short, actually. Lying by omission explicitly covers situations where one party makes a wrong assumption and then the other party deliberately does not correct them and leaves them to operate under said wrong assumption. Mitsuki lied here, that much is beyond dispute. Especially once she transitioned into just straight up purposefully maintaining the misunderstanding, such as concealing her face outside work whenever she happened upon Aya and threatening Jerkface to stay silent.

One could say she had her own reasons for wanting to not be found out- she had no obligation to clear it up.

Are you serious? Not baiting, legitimate question. Aya was pursuing a personal relationship, be it friendly or romantic, with Mitsuki. Mitsuki was well aware of this, and in her "onii-san" persona she actively encouraged it and willingly participated, all the while deliberately leaving Aya in the dark. On what plane of reality can this be seen as "yeah, she was totally not under any obligation here whatsoever"? It is a shitty thing to do to anybody, period, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

And her "reasoning" boils down to "I am an introvert, she is an extrovert, the two do not mix", which is a laughably thin rationale for someone to do what she did.

last edited at Aug 21, 2022 5:47PM

^I agree. She was aware of the misunderstanding and chose to let it stand- and even tried to make sure the misunderstanding wasn't found it- which falls short of lying imo.

It does not fall short, actually. Lying by omission explicitly covers situations where one party makes a wrong assumption and then the other party deliberately does not correct them and leaves them to operate under said wrong assumption. Mitsuki lied here, that much is beyond dispute. Especially once she transitioned into just straight up purposefully maintaining the misunderstanding, such as concealing her face outside work whenever she happened upon Aya and threatening Jerkface to stay silent.

One could say she had her own reasons for wanting to not be found out- she had no obligation to clear it up.

Are you serious? Not baiting, legitimate question. Aya was pursuing a personal relationship, be it friendly or romantic, with Mitsuki. Mitsuki was well aware of this, and in her "onii-san" persona she actively encouraged it and willingly participated, all the while deliberately leaving Aya in the dark. On what plane of reality can this be seen as "yeah, she was totally not under any obligation here whatsoever"? It is a shitty thing to do to anybody, period, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

And her "reasoning" boils down to "I am an introvert, she is an extrovert, the two do not mix", which is a laughably thin rationale for someone to do what she did.

We had a big argument about this in the first 10 or 20 pages of this discussion. The argument here is that while there is such a thing as lying by omission, there is also such a thing as presumption of privacy. Not telling someone something isn't of itself a moral wrong, it just depends on the relationship you have and the conversations you've had until this point.

Look I'm not going to make you search for it, here is what I wrote back then:

I think it'll be easier to understand with some analogies.
"How could you not tell me you were a girl?"
"How could you not tell me you were black?"
"How could you not tell me you were Chinese?"
"How could you not tell me you were Muslim?"
Etc.

There is a presumption here that keeping that information from other people is a form of deception. And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response. The answer is that it's no one's business.

Of course, you could argue that there are certain things that you should reveal in a relationship. If you have religious differences on how you should raise your kids, then the topic of your respective views on faith definitely needs to be above board. And yes, when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board.

But that doesn't hold true for 99% of interactions. Your coworkers, your customers, your classmates, and any other strangers in your life have no right to know that information about you. Acting like this is a deception when they aren't dating is to presume ownership of that aspect of another person's privacy. Just as it would be xenophobic to demand to know where someone was born before interacting with them, and racist to demand to know the color of their skin, it would be sexist/transphobic to demand the same for their gender.

It has repeatedly come up with manga creators that a lot of them consider "Yuri" a specific genre with specific tropes. I would caution people to just read the story and interpret it on it's own terms.

We're still traumatized by Nettaigyo.

^ Um, so what to the whole “obligation” debate? In any case, Mitsuki wasn’t forthright, and now she’s going to have to ‘fess, up, and we get to watch.

If the characters were real and being hauled before an ethics tribunal consisting of Dynasty readers, the definition of “lying” and “omission,” etc. would be relevant to the verdict.

Of course, if Mitsuki had chosen the most candid approach to her classmate’s initial misunderstanding, there would be no story. So there’s that.

last edited at Aug 21, 2022 6:13PM

If the characters were real and being hauled before an ethics tribunal consisting of Dynasty readers, the definition of “lying” and “omission,” etc. would be relevant to the verdict.

Please don't give dynasty forum members ideas.

last edited at Aug 21, 2022 6:14PM

The verdict is GUILTY.

The sentence is HANDHOLDING.

Thank you, Kirin-kun, for clearing that up. Imho it should have been transparently obvious -- I mean, Aya had already realized that Koga had Onii-san's voice, Onii-san's eyes, Onii-san's piercing holes, it was only one more small step to realize Onii-san is Koga -- but judging by some of the previous posts there was indeed a need to straighten it out.

Took me a few moments to get the point. I know, I'm dumb. T_T Poor Aya, I hope she realizes Mitsuki cares deeply about her and they agree with Mitsuki to be dear friends and it eases the pain and suffering in her straight little heart.

Well anyways, now we probably know that Mitsuki singing a song to Aya will probably happen during the cultural festival.

Well anyways, now we probably know that Mitsuki singing a song to Aya will probably happen during the cultural festival.

With you on that.
A chapter or two (at most) of angst then the healing 'song from the heart' to make everything better would be my preferred way to go.

Kirin-kun posted:

By the way, I don't translate the title of the chapters, even though Agu gives them titles, because Amarrez never did, but in this instance, the title has significance.

This chapter has the serie's title on twitter: 気になってた人が男じゃなかった

Which, in this instance, means "The Guy I Was Interested in Wasn’t a Guy"

So, Agu tells us that Aya indeed realized that Onii-san and Koga are one and the same.

No need to search for other interpretations.

And yet, people are still speculating xD

"The Girl She is Interested in is Actually Not a Guy!"

Well anyways, now we probably know that Mitsuki singing a song to Aya will probably happen during the cultural festival.

With you on that.
A chapter or two (at most) of angst then the healing 'song from the heart' to make everything better would be my preferred way to go.

I hope this means Uncle-san comes back and becomes the ultimate wingman he was set to be.

We're still traumatized by Nettaigyo.

Nettaigyo author also explicitly stated that her story will not be yuri, which was pointed out a number of times to the readers on Dynasty over the course of the manga. Most just willingly disregarded it because the subtext was so thick you could slice it with a knife. That being said, the author there went a step further than Agu and also explicitly stated it will be a work about close friendships and the struggle with loneliness. By comparison, Agu's statement is far more ambiguous.

Point is, if anyone was traumatised by Nettaigyo, they have only themselves to blame.

@flowsthead: "And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response." I... genuinely do not get this part... why would someone equate this with violence in the first place, much less react with violence in return? If this was a situation in real life, the most that would probably happen would be that the people in question would break contact.

...it just depends on the relationship you have and the conversations you've had until this point.

This is the factor I am focusing on. Broadly, I agree with you regarding privacy. In fact, personally, I get extremely annoyed whenever someone tries prodding into any aspects of my privacy, no matter how minute. However, what makes this situation different is that 1) Aya did not prod at all; and 2) Aya was very clearly trying to establish at the very least a friendship, and highly likely also a romance with Mitsuki, which Mitsuki was aware of.

It is not a "relationship they have" (at the moment), but it is "building a future relationship". The reality is that while the other party has no right to demand to know any specifics about you, you also can not build any kind of a relationship without sharing some of that information of your own volition, and the deciding factor here is that Mitsuki enjoys and encourages said relationship, at least in her "onii-san" persona. She is not an innocent bystander swept into this against her will, she is actively building a social interaction that anyone with a modicum of sense ought to know can not go on indefinitely based on lies, direct or by omission, about something as basic as one's identity.

There are also factors here that you did not take into account in the post you pasted me. Mitsuki knows that Aya has a romantic crush on her "onii-san" persona and is pursuing likely more than just mere friendship. Presently she has no reason to think Aya might be into girls, and this then crosses into just straight-up stringing someone along (or at least, it is a reasonable assumption for Mitsuki to have under the circumstances). Like, at what point do we transition from "my privacy" to "cruelty"? Your "it is sexist to demand to know someone's gender" completely fails to take into account that there are relationship that vitally rely on this information, such as sexual pursuits and romance (and Mitsuki knows for a fact that this is the case here).

Like, at one point you kind of lightly touched upon this aspect ("when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board"), though you did not specify gender, instead spending more time developing the religious analogy.

Another point is that Mitsuki is not just some random stranger whom Aya never saw without the mask, she is also Aya's classmate and literally sits there listening to Aya gush about "onii-san", being privy to information that Aya would be deeply embarrassed to share openly within earshot of her actual romantic interest. In a way, Mitsuki is privy to some aspects of Aya's privacy that Aya would probably not be so outspoken with otherwise, while Aya is privy to nothing regarding Mitsuki.

In other words, Mitsuki knows that the other person is pursuing her romantically (and she knows this for a fact thanks to the circumstances of their unequal relationship), she knows this person thinks they are pursuing a guy, she has no reason to think this person might be bi (we as readers are privy to that because of the character bios, and the whole setting surrounding the manga itself, but Mitsuki has none of that knowledge). You have put a lot of emphasis in your post on the present tense, that they are not dating at the moment, but I should think it would be obvious these same standards apply to attempts to date someone just as well.

All of this makes me believe Mitsuki had an obligation, a moral one if no other, to come clean long before now. In fact, I hoped she would come clean of her own volition (though those hopes were quickly diminishing with each chapter, after seeing how desperate she was to keep up the pretence). Being caught, by contrast, is a weaker outcome that did not rely on any of her positive traits finally prevailing.

@Blastaar: I thought it was obvious we were discussing how the readers reacted to and interpreted Mitsuki's actions. How Aya will react is up to the author. This whole "lol, judging fictional characters under real world standards / ethics tribunal / morality court" shtick has gotten old over the years, especially since you only apply it very selectively, mainly when you encounter an unfavourable remark under a work you personally like.

last edited at Aug 21, 2022 7:57PM

But that doesn't hold true for 99% of interactions. Your coworkers, your customers, your classmates, and any other strangers in your life have no right to know that information about you. Acting like this is a deception when they aren't dating is to presume ownership of that aspect of another person's privacy. Just as it would be xenophobic to demand to know where someone was born before interacting with them, and racist to demand to know the color of their skin, it would be sexist/transphobic to demand the same for their gender.

Guess im all bc i actually do ask that bc im curious af

I'm gonna delete some of this to simplify the response, but I did read it all.

@flowsthead: "And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response." I... genuinely do not get this part... why would someone equate this with violence in the first place, much less react with violence in return? If this was a situation in real life, the most that would probably happen would be that the people in question would break contact.

So that part was in response to a question about how demanding to know someone's gender can be transphobic, and trans people have faced a lot of violence by just the reveal of their being trans. I can explain more if you want, but the decision to not be open about how you identify in real world situations has often been done for self protection, and is still being done today.

She is not an innocent bystander swept into this against her will, she is actively building a social interaction that anyone with a modicum of sense ought to know can not go on indefinitely based on lies, direct or by omission, about something as basic as one's identity.

In the sense that she overheard Aya say she was attracted to her record store persona, yes Mitsuki has knowledge of the situation that does not make this a choice against her will. And she is an active participant. But Aya hasn't made her feelings known to the record store persona, so I still don't think Mitsuki has any kind of imperative to reveal herself. She would dress the way she does anyway for her job. The only time she hid herself on purpose was at the festival, which is definitely an active part of maintaining the disguise. It's not ideal, but there are real world ramifications to being gay that regardless if Mitsuki vocalizes them or not factor into her being hesitant to reveal herself.

Like, at one point you kind of lightly touched upon this aspect ("when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board"), though you did not specify gender, instead spending more time developing the religious analogy.

Yeah, because I do acknowledge that if they were to start dating then Mitsuki should reveal herself. But they aren't dating. And while they aren't dating, I don't think she has to. Aya has a crush, but that's no reason to assume that she will actually do something about that crush.

You have put a lot of emphasis in your post on the present tense, that they are not dating at the moment, but I should think it would be obvious these same standards apply to attempts to date someone just as well.

This is like some Minority Report talking about future crimes kind of thought process to me. They aren't dating. Unless their friendship depends on the gender of Mitsuki, rather than the fact they both like the same type of music, then it shouldn't matter until one of them confesses.

All of this makes me believe Mitsuki had an obligation, a moral one if no other, to come clean long before now. In fact, I hoped she would come clean of her own volition (though those hopes were quickly diminishing with each chapter, after seeing how desperate she was to keep up the pretence). Being caught, by contrast, is a weaker outcome that did not rely on any of her positive traits finally prevailing.

Look, we may just disagree on this. For you, the moral imperative is about being above board about everything with the understanding that they may never speak again if Mitsuki reveals herself. I think even assuming that the lie by omission applies here, which I don't necessarily, that is an understandable moral failing on Mitsuki's part in the service of a friendship she wouldn't otherwise have.

I think most of us understand why historically there have been many women who have dressed or acted as men to be able to do things they wouldn't otherwise have been able to do. And we do not begrudge their lies there because they are in the service of fighting for something that we would agree with, for women to be given the opportunity to do something they would not otherwise be allowed to do.

The difference here is obviously that Mitsuki isn't doing this to fight sexism, it's just a personal relationship between two people. But Mitsuki is also not lying about any other aspect of herself. She's not changing how she dresses at work. She's not pretending to like things that Aya likes for the sake of maintaining that friendship. And these are all things that are regularly given as advice for people hoping to date. The one part that does not match is that Aya's assumption of Mitsuki's gender is wrong. I'm absolutely not going to blame Mitsuki for that. I think the same historical thought process applies on a smaller scale. If the idea is, "we wouldn't be talking to each other if you knew I was a girl" in the same way that, "I wouldn't be allowed to do this job if you knew I was a woman", then that's pretty fucked up logic.

So personally, no, I don't think Mitsuki has a moral obligation until one of them confesses romantic feelings, regardless of information she might have about Aya's interest. If Aya confessed chapter 1 and Mitsuki rejected her, I don't think she would have had an obligation to correct her on her gender assumptions. If Aya confessed chapter 15 and Mitsuki said, "I would say yes, but would you still want to date me if you knew I was a girl" and revealed herself then, I still wouldn't have a problem with Mitsuki. Neither of those things will happen since Aya found out on her own, but the point is the same.