she has a neurological disorder known as narcolepsy

Kaoru is the most toxic character in this series. She's Teflon Jill, impervious to consequences and karmic retribution: nothing sticks to her no matter what she does. It's like the universe is always at work to protect her from everything, whether it's getting splashed with mud on a rainy day or being hated and ostracized for her womanizing ways.
Only time her teflon armor failed her was when Shizuka dumped her for her constant cheating. It was so unbearably shocking to her, the idea that her bad actions had consequences that could come back to bite her, that she even fell ill for a while. And even then in the end she got the last laugh as the universe couldn't let this outrage go unpunished: one day Shizuka came in tears and begged Kaoru to take her back (at the time Shizuka had realized that Kaoru was finally moving on); and of course Kaoru with a satisfied grin told Shizuka to bug off and go comfort herself with Mio. And in this way Kaoru was avenged and Shizuka's humiliation was complete. That's how life works for Kaoru.
What annoys me the most is that when Mask told her in clear terms that she wasn't interested in her, Kaoru decided that she was not going to take NO DAMMIT for an answer and continued stalking Mask, pestering her, touching her, kissing her... and once again, not only there weren't any bad consequences to these actions, on the contrary, because of all of this Mask started feeling an interest in Kaoru. Kaoru won again, yay! /S This kinda thing is what I call toxic for real; Mask mixing some resentment with her love and admiration for Onibi, that's nothing.

Kaoru is the most toxic character in this series. She's Teflon Jill, impervious to consequences and karmic retribution: nothing sticks to her no matter what she does. It's like the universe is always at work to protect her from everything, whether it's getting splashed with mud on a rainy day or being hated and ostracized for her womanizing ways.
Only time her teflon armor failed her was when Shizuka dumped her for her constant cheating. It was so unbearably shocking to her, the idea that her bad actions had consequences that could come back to bite her, that she even fell ill for a while. And even then in the end she got the last laugh as the universe couldn't let this outrage go unpunished: one day Shizuka came in tears and begged Kaoru to take her back (at the time Shizuka had realized that Kaoru was finally moving on); and of course Kaoru with a satisfied grin told Shizuka to bug off and go comfort herself with Mio. And in this way Kaoru was avenged and Shizuka's humiliation was complete. That's how life works for Kaoru.
What annoys me the most is that when Mask told her in clear terms that she wasn't interested in her, Kaoru decided that she was not going to take NO DAMMIT for an answer and continued stalking Mask, pestering her, touching her, kissing her... and once again, not only there weren't any bad consequences to these actions, on the contrary, because of all of this Mask started feeling an interest in Kaoru. Kaoru won again, yay! /S This kinda thing is what I call toxic for real; Mask mixing some resentment with her love and admiration for Onibi, that's nothing.

You're saying exactly what i've been thinking all this time but i wasn't able to word properly!!

Tbh i expected way more with this "Mask x Kaoru" ship, specially from Mask's side. I don't get why the author keeps making everything in the story so that it works out for Kaoru. She's an awful person in every aspect, as far as i remember she also hasn't shown any sign of getting better, actually owning up to her shitty behavior or going through the consequences of her actions and yet everything keeps going on her favor.

I don't really get the appeal of seeing someone horrible doing good on everything, without facing the consequences of their wrongdoings...

last edited at Aug 8, 2021 12:16AM

For whatever you might say about this, being a womanizing idiot that's finally starting to learn that the world doesn't revolve around them and wishing that the creative inspiration that you look up to would just "wither away" are completely different, lol.
I don't think these sorts of actions are cancelled out by someone else doing something "worse", if you can even say that. For whatever Kaoru did, for however wrong she was, it doesn't make what Mayoi said in the latest chapter any less "toxic." It is classic toxic envy, to love someone, to admire them from the bottom of their hearts so much that it makes them hate, to even wish that their talent would dry up? That comes from such a different place than yer bog standard womanizer, i think...just my opinion, though.

I try not to post much.

I don't really get the appeal of seeing someone horrible doing good on everything, without facing the consequences of their wrongdoings...

Wellll that's kind'a how the real world is... scum rises to the top... and stuff... ;)

last edited at Aug 8, 2021 1:34AM

For whatever you might say about this, being a womanizing idiot that's finally starting to learn that the world doesn't revolve around them and wishing that the creative inspiration that you look up to would just "wither away" are completely different, lol.
I don't think these sorts of actions are cancelled out by someone else doing something "worse", if you can even say that. For whatever Kaoru did, for however wrong she was, it doesn't make what Mayoi said in the latest chapter any less "toxic." It is classic toxic envy, to love someone, to admire them from the bottom of their hearts so much that it makes them hate, to even wish that their talent would dry up? That comes from such a different place than yer bog standard womanizer, i think...just my opinion, though.

Don't really want to get involved. Still...
Secret selfish thoughts? That you keep to yourself? Don't harm anyone.
Cheating on your love partner? Again and again? Betraying their trust, breaking their hearts? Hurting those who love you in a cruel and horrible way? Dude, that's messed up, that's first grade assholery, that's some bad shit.

last edited at Aug 8, 2021 3:46AM

Cornonthekopp posted:

So are we gonna talk about the BL tooth love triangle? No? Okay

That cracked me up I swear

/S This kinda thing is what I call toxic for real; Mask mixing some resentment with her love and admiration for Onibi, that's nothing.

While you are perfectly allowed to not like Kaoru, as I will agree she has done pretty shitty things in the past. To dismiss Mask's issues with Onibi more or less because "Kaoru is worse" is incredibly disingenuous.

Gotta say, love when Kaoru comes up one way or another because people will break into "hate her" vs "kinda like her" warring camps.
Anyhow, thought I would throw two cents in: I actually think that what Mask did was worse. Like, don't get me wrong, Kaoru is a cunt and a bad person but she always came off as a himbo to me: overly confident, horny, and stupid. Stuff that she did, she did not out of cruelty or whatever, but because she simply did not think. Mask's feelings, however, are very much cruel. And also yes, might as well go there, I also thought that Shizuka was worse than Kaoru.
Remind me if I am wrong, but wasn't the shtick that Mask would go for Kaoru because she wanted to "experience new stuff" to be better at drawing? Or something like that: with Mask viewing herself "as bad of a person as Kaoru", and thus seeing Kaoru as the only person who would get her, we could go do that route sooner than later.
I, honestly, wouldn't mind seeing more Kaoru. I wonder if the manga will go for "she became a better person" bit or for "she is a himbo who can exist only in an open relationship" bit. Either way, ass or not, still the second prettiest character in the manga (I swear man, those genes.)

Gotta say, love when Kaoru comes up one way or another because people will break into "hate her" vs "kinda like her" warring camps.

It's the cheating. Check any manga with the 'cheating' tag, it's the same debate over and over.
Everybody wants to like the mcs, but nobody likes a cheater, so when they're the same people it's a given there's fireworks.

It's more difficult to understand all the Mayoi hate. I'm here with @Ke_Zukulenzia: if you had some negative thoughts one time you were depressed but you kept them to yourself and didn't do anything, people shouldn't be judging you. We are not puritans from Salem, we shouldn't be policing people's thoughts.

Gotta say, love when Kaoru comes up one way or another because people will break into "hate her" vs "kinda like her" warring camps.

It's the cheating. Check any manga with the 'cheating' tag, it's the same debate over and over.
Everybody wants to like the mcs, but nobody likes a cheater, so when they're the same people it's a given there's fireworks.

But does it even count when the soi-disant offender is quite open about the fact they don't do this whole "monogamy" thing in the first place? What you see is what you get, as it were, and people who elect to sleep in the rain don't have much of a basis to complain about catching colds.

We are not puritans from Salem, we shouldn't be policing people's thoughts.

Modern social media disagrees, as evidently does a nontrivial segment of this forum. Anyways, Mask definitely has a distinctly unhealthy combination of obsessive hero-worship and raging jealousy towards Onibi - the sort of complex that in an olden-time opera would presage insanity, murder and ruin ere the fat lady sings.

While that's definitely concerning - many people linked to Kaoru seem to be, one way or another - she's yet to do more than torture herself over it and seems to be quite conscious of just how dark the turns her mind sometimes takes are, so this hue and cry mostly reads as yet more bizarre moralism.

It's as if it came as a shattering revelation to some that people have flaws, often major ones, and so duly do their fictional depictions (indeed personal flaws are just about 101 Writing Interesting Characters)...

@Honne @H A U S and others hater of kaoru : again these exaggerations on kaoru, it is not the devil we are far from it and with you we will be so bored its would be the world of care bears with only nice and platonic girls ...
Kaoru is the greatest seductress in the whole school, normal that she is a little different in character from the others ... toxic? when we see all the possible opportunities that she can have and which she does not even end up being in total opposition to what you say: she is a player who loves girls ... she is not a bitch calculator, she works on instinct and what is interesting with mask is that she fell in love with her for the first time in her life, which means that she is no longer in a "dominant" position and she knows it, and accepts it, for her mask has no feelings for her and contrary to what you say she no longer insists as at the beginning ... the scene where she kisses her was a reaction of real despair not a usual action.
When she is with her sister she is very caring and gentle.
I find this arc most interesting because we are not going to type only couples everyone she is beautiful everyone she is nice, in real life it does not work like that and there are many more bitches than in the manga.
Kaoru is a seductive, natural provocateur, she might not like it, but she does exist in everyday life and not just a little!
her duet with mask is the most exciting in terms of development potential, because it is the only one that almost deepens the characters with a lot of drama. I like kaoru/mask because they are different from other couples!

Stop wanting to sanitize all the couples in this fabulous manga.

last edited at Aug 8, 2021 9:19PM

Koaru is toxic. Most of the other characters in this manga are everyday people, if flawed, but I find Koaru interesting because of how toxic and flawed she is. I love seeing a casanova type person actually falling in love with someone. I love seeing her struck dumb by Mask. I love seeing her crying and experiencing new feelings.
I used to hate her so much, but now I like Koaru.

I wouldn't like in her real life. I do ship Mask and Koaru a lot, but in real life their relationship would probably crash and burn. There are things in shows and books that are unquestionably icky in real life, but I'm fine with because it's fiction.
I'm fine with Koaru because I like seeing the different, flawed relationships in this manga.

And, as The return of Fuzzy puff said, in real life shitty people can rise to the top. Shitty people can experience no consequences. Sometimes shitty things happen to good people and sometimes good things happen to shitty people. Think of all the shitty CEOs in the world. They experience no consequences thanks to money.
Koaru lives a charmed life. I can see why someone might not want to see that in a manga. Manga is escapism.

On the other hand, I find Shizuka almost as fucked up as Koaru. Koaru and Shizuka's relationship was so toxic.
When Shizuka saw Koaru pulling away from her, she kissed her. It almost messed up Shizuka's relationship with her girlfriend. It's different kinds of shitty.

I like that there are relationship tags on this work. I have one couple I'm not too keen on: Nononon x Yumim. All the others I like. I know ahead of time when I look at the chapter what relationship it's focusing on. Which is nice. Usually I savour the chapters, but with Nononon x Yumim chapters, I know I can read the chapter quickly.

You can do the same thing if you don't like Koaru and Mask. Skim the chapter.

last edited at Aug 8, 2021 10:38PM

Kaoru is a seductive, natural provocateur, she might not like it, but she does exist in everyday life and not just a little!

Teflon Jill, pal. The universe protects her. From everything. Even mud. A speeding car on a wet muddy street splashes 20 pedestrians, 19 get spattered with mud but not a drop falls on her.
She does exist in everyday life as much as Gladstone Gander.

Kaoru is a cunt and a bad person but she always came off as a himbo to me: overly confident, horny, and stupid. Stuff that she did, she did not out of cruelty or whatever, but because she simply did not think.

I recommend re-reading some of the chapters tagged Kaoru x Shizuka. When Kaoru realized Shizuka was about to escape her clutches, she started sabotaging her relationship with Mio, played mind games with her and even sexually assaulted her in chapter 68. I like Kaoru, but she's definitely the worst person in in this manga.

Kaoru is a cunt and a bad person but she always came off as a himbo to me: overly confident, horny, and stupid. Stuff that she did, she did not out of cruelty or whatever, but because she simply did not think.

I recommend re-reading some of the chapters tagged Kaoru x Shizuka. When Kaoru realized Shizuka was about to escape her clutches, she started sabotaging her relationship with Mio, played mind games with her and even sexually assaulted her in chapter 68. I like Kaoru, but she's definitely the worst person in in this manga.

And she told her to go back to Mio when Shizuka try to back to her after she see Kaoru become interested in Mask.

im tooth

Mayoi is such an angel. One moment of jealous pettiness, and she runs away in tears because she can't forgive herself. Too pure for this world.

Kaoru is the most toxic character in this series. She's Teflon Jill, impervious to consequences and karmic retribution: nothing sticks to her no matter what she does. It's like the universe is always at work to protect her from everything, whether it's getting splashed with mud on a rainy day or being hated and ostracized for her womanizing ways.
Only time her teflon armor failed her was when Shizuka dumped her for her constant cheating. It was so unbearably shocking to her, the idea that her bad actions had consequences that could come back to bite her, that she even fell ill for a while. And even then in the end she got the last laugh as the universe couldn't let this outrage go unpunished: one day Shizuka came in tears and begged Kaoru to take her back (at the time Shizuka had realized that Kaoru was finally moving on); and of course Kaoru with a satisfied grin told Shizuka to bug off and go comfort herself with Mio. And in this way Kaoru was avenged and Shizuka's humiliation was complete. That's how life works for Kaoru.
What annoys me the most is that when Mask told her in clear terms that she wasn't interested in her, Kaoru decided that she was not going to take NO DAMMIT for an answer and continued stalking Mask, pestering her, touching her, kissing her... and once again, not only there weren't any bad consequences to these actions, on the contrary, because of all of this Mask started feeling an interest in Kaoru. Kaoru won again, yay! /S This kinda thing is what I call toxic for real; Mask mixing some resentment with her love and admiration for Onibi, that's nothing.

This is exactly what I've been thinking. My god, Kaoru pisses me off. It's a little irritating when people gush over her, and I'm just like...so, what, she finally gets a real love interest and now she's top waifu or something? Like, she still did awful things. Shizuka is kind of a shitty person now and it's entirely her fault- and then when she's confronted with the results of her own choices, its just "lol sorry, go kiss your first year". AND she has the nerve to look down on Shizuka while doing it. I'm no big fan of Shizuka, but I see her getting the redemption arc treatment, or something like it- I see nothing of the sort from Kaoru, it's like she's just been totally absolved of any and all guilt. Let's not forget who started the whole mess in the first place, yeah?

Of course my opinion isn't entirely unbiased- my first year of college I had experience with someone who was much like Kaoru. Disloyal, dishonest, self-centered without even the wherewithal to be aware of it. Of course, she had a friend manipulating her, but that really just adds 'ridiculously gullible' to the list...Anyway, it's just always been a sore spot for me. I just really don't care for Kaoru, and if you've ever been in my (or Shizuka's) position, you'll understand all too well.

And I agree with the Mask thing- compared to Kaoru's karma houdini act (which can cause serious harm to those around her in the future and distort her own image of herself), a little jealousy rooted admiration is nothing. It's actually pretty normal- it's just that Mask goes about it in a theatrical way in this chapter, haha.

I don't know, the manga's been kinda crapping all over Kaoru lately and she's been realizing the destructive nature of her actions recently. Weird, its almost like people, even manga characters, aren't set in stone and they grow and change as things happen to them. What a surprise.

I still think "kaoru is worse, Mayoi is just whispering things onibi will never hear" is, as another user said, incredibly silly and disingenuous because this chapter isn't about Kaoru. its about Mayoi and her issues, and you don't just get to gloss over them. She's got stuff, and you gotta focus on it. Toxic envy is still toxic even if another person has done arguably done worse in the past. Dislike Kaoru all you want to, but the feelings Mayoi displays here are textbook toxic envy o3o;; No amount of 5 paragraph posts will change that, hehe.

Edit: I should probably clarify that i'm a huge fan of seeing toxic love/stories in yuri manga. There's literally nothing that energizes me more than seeing people make awful mistakes and ruining their own/other people's lives and struggling to find meaning afterward. I still think Kaoru is starting to learn from her mistakes, personally, and my love for the darker side of human emotion is what made this chapter with Onibi and Mayoi wonderful to me.

last edited at Aug 10, 2021 8:18PM

Minority opinion or not, I find the talk and meta-analysis of a character being 'toxic' is useless and ultimately only makes it hard to accept these characters as fully realized and fleshed out - and that's something that Kishi has been very good at with quite a number of the characters in the series. Kaoru has especially been fleshed out, I think, and Bou-chan is moving up those ranks very quickly.

And that's why this chapter was so great, actually. Mask's admiration for Onibi has always tainted by an undercurrent of jealousy even while she clearly had a genuine respect and love for her friend. To see it all laid out, to hear it from her own lips, shows us just how much the envy has become unbearable. And to see it contrasted, in a way, against her view of Kaoru - who she feels closer to now, almost ironically, because of her actions, while Kaoru is seemingly trying to at least sort-of-kind-of become a better person...it's a really great dramatic shift and character development moment.

I think it's hard to say whether either of them, Kaoru or Bou-chan, are 'bad' people. Rolling_Loli pointed out fairly correctly that Kaoru's basically a Himbo (have we not gone all the way back around now to her basically being a value-judgment-less bimbo?); the worst things she did are fairly far in the past of the series now (her temptations towards Shizuka when she was first getting with Mio, and even further in the past, her actions following their breakup if you think that she was manipulating Shizuka and not really horribly depressed (not that i agree with the thought that she was manipulating Shizuka, but I could see the argument being made)). And Mask has done little 'wrong' outside of maybe a kind of coldness towards Kaoru - an understandable coldness on her part - or now, this awful little wish of hers towards Onibi, which, even in its awfulness, I feel is almost cute, almost wonderful, because she's taking it all so seriously and she's still, by her actions if not her words, blatantly full of admiration for Onibi...I don't know, it's all so great. Some of the best development in the series is definitely happening in and around Kaoru and Mask.

Minority opinion or not, I find the talk and meta-analysis of a character being 'toxic' is useless and ultimately only makes it hard to accept these characters as fully realized and fleshed out - and that's something that Kishi has been very good at with quite a number of the characters in the series. Kaoru has especially been fleshed out, I think, and Bou-chan is moving up those ranks very quickly.

And that's why this chapter was so great, actually. Mask's admiration for Onibi has always tainted by an undercurrent of jealousy even while she clearly had a genuine respect and love for her friend. To see it all laid out, to hear it from her own lips, shows us just how much the envy has become unbearable. And to see it contrasted, in a way, against her view of Kaoru - who she feels closer to now, almost ironically, because of her actions, while Kaoru is seemingly trying to at least sort-of-kind-of become a better person...it's a really great dramatic shift and character development moment.

I think it's hard to say whether either of them, Kaoru or Bou-chan, are 'bad' people. Rolling_Loli pointed out fairly correctly that Kaoru's basically a Himbo (have we not gone all the way back around now to her basically being a value-judgment-less bimbo?); the worst things she did are fairly far in the past of the series now (her temptations towards Shizuka when she was first getting with Mio, and even further in the past, her actions following their breakup if you think that she was manipulating Shizuka and not really horribly depressed (not that i agree with the thought that she was manipulating Shizuka, but I could see the argument being made)). And Mask has done little 'wrong' outside of maybe a kind of coldness towards Kaoru - an understandable coldness on her part - or now, this awful little wish of hers towards Onibi, which, even in its awfulness, I feel is almost cute, almost wonderful, because she's taking it all so seriously and she's still, by her actions if not her words, blatantly full of admiration for Onibi...I don't know, it's all so great. Some of the best development in the series is definitely happening in and around Kaoru and Mask.

I agree with this a lot, they're two of the more interesting characters at this point in the series. Most of the other cast members don't quite scratch that same itch as far as interesting development and characterization go. Nothing against the rest of the cast, I love all the cute and fun stuff, but Kaoru and Mayoi's chapters have quickly become some of the ones I look forward to most, cause you never quite know where they're gonna go next.

It kinda disappoints me at times that a lot of people don't seem to appreciate the character development going on with both of them. For people to say that Kaoru is still the same person as the one we saw towards the beginning of the series just tells me they haven't paid attention to their chapters. Sure she's still not perfect, but people don't completely change overnight. How the two of them work both of out their issues going forward is gonna be interesting.

Some people like to throw around the word 'toxic' like it's confetti. I've lost count of how many times I've seen a girl in a manga yell "DIE!" to a friend or relative without really meaning it... and most often they don't even need to apologize as the other person can tell it was just the impulse expression of a momentarily negative emotional state, not her true feelings or wishes. And yet look at the hating that fills this thread.

When I read 236, I was blown away by the overwhelming power of pure love that Mask poured out on Onibi during all the first half of the chapter. And after she murmured her "curse" I was anguished by her extreme distress and obvious disgust with herself that even made her cry bitter tears of shame. Such a small fault, and yet it was enough to make her despair like that. And later at the library she kept struggling with mortification and the fear of being unworthy of Onibi. A more beautiful cinnamon roll you won't find in this world.

I don't really care about Kaoru and I'm not interested in the discussion about her character... but trying to defend her by shitting on Mask is just sad and silly.

It kinda disappoints me at times that a lot of people don't seem to appreciate the character development going on with both of them. For people to say that Kaoru is still the same person as the one we saw towards the beginning of the series just tells me they haven't paid attention to their chapters. Sure she's still not perfect, but people don't completely change overnight. How the two of them work both of out their issues going forward is gonna be interesting.

I completely agree with this sentiment. Kaoru falling for Mayoi so utterly and failing to get what she wants really seems to have opened her eyes in a way that she's never really had to deal with before. And i find Mayoi's struggle with her love and hate for Onibi not just exhilarating, but very relatable, especially since i think many people who read manga are often involved in some kind of creative medium. Even without that, we can easily put ourselves in Mayoi's shoes and imagine a time where admiration turned into envy, and it makes her feel incredible human and fallible. its what i've come to love about Torajirou-sensei's ability to make his characters grow x3

Personally speaking, Kaoru was always one of my favorites from the get go, because even throughout her shitty moments with Shizuka, she was always a good big sister to Honoka, even if Honoka refused it. In the end, none of the cast are really perfect people, and that's what makes all these struggles so interesting.

I don't really care about Kaoru and I'm not interested in the discussion about her character... but trying to defend her by shitting on Mask is just sad and silly.

Nothing wrong with admitting characters have faults, its what makes them interesting. She has issues of her own that will be worked out in the future, but trying to paint her as an awful person because of them is very silly, I agree.