Awww it end without seeing ookumas parent

Well there's your spinoff material. Shiba + Kanda Jr. could be cute, and I think it's absolutely a set up for a spin-off that'll still feature plenty of OokuKanda in a supporting role and play the mixup-reversal-game from the other side.

Curious if Naru thinks of himself as transgender (making it herself, obviously) or just likes this appearance (and has a knack for it, too) and thus "just" crossdresses.

People keep calling the hinted relationship between Naru and Shiba yaoi, but I don't think that's correct. When Ookuma asks them if they're a man, they very explicit say their sex is male. Now, that could just be an artifact of the translation, but it seems like a very specific and unusual wording. They also always appear in very feminine clothes and act in a more traditionally feminine way.

My guess is that Naru is actually trans. or at least somewhere on that end of the spectrum, in contrast to Mizuki who just prefers more masculine cloths both still thinks of themselves as a woman and who gets surprised when people mistake them for male.

Definitely seems like Naru's at least habitually crossdressing. Not sure if I agree on defining the relationship as yaoi or not yaoi. Question is whether "yaoi" is really just "male homosexuality", and thus based on sex, not gender, or if the classification is commonly used based on gender over sex.

People keep calling the hinted relationship between Naru and Shiba yaoi, but I don't think that's correct. When Ookuma asks them if they're a man, they very explicit say their sex is male. Now, that could just be an artifact of the translation, but it seems like a very specific and unusual wording. They also always appear in very feminine clothes and act in a more traditionally feminine way.

My guess is that Naru is actually trans. or at least somewhere on that end of the spectrum, in contrast to Mizuki who just prefers more masculine cloths both still thinks of themselves as a woman and who gets surprised when people mistake them for male.

Definitely seems like Naru's at least habitually crossdressing. Not sure if I agree on defining the relationship as yaoi or not yaoi. Question is whether "yaoi" is really just "male homosexuality", and thus based on sex, not gender, or if the classification is commonly used based on gender over sex.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't end well if you told a trans woman, who's interested in men, that she's engaged in male homosexuality.

last edited at Oct 27, 2020 10:45PM

Definitely seems like Naru's at least habitually crossdressing. Not sure if I agree on defining the relationship as yaoi or not yaoi. Question is whether "yaoi" is really just "male homosexuality", and thus based on sex, not gender, or if the classification is commonly used based on gender over sex.

A trans women and a man is absolutely not yaoi nor is it homosexuality of any sort

last edited at Oct 27, 2020 11:43PM

Okay but can we appreciate that the siblings are a tomboy and a femboy

A trans women and a man is absolutely not yaoi nor is it homosexuality of any sort

I don't think it's that cut and dried, but depending on the individual couple we're in really muddy waters. I'd say as long as the genitals of both parties are still male, it does constitute homosexual acts (not necessarily homoeroticism, though) from a purely biological perspective, not in terms of gender, and as soon as genitals are altered, we have a constellation that we don't really have words for yet. Definitions of the terms may also adapt over time, but as things are right now, biology and physiology is still an important factor.

Okay but can we appreciate that the siblings are a tomboy and a femboy

Assuming that Naru isn't actually trans, yes. And from how I read the manga, Naru isn't particularly offended by defaulting to that assumption either way.

last edited at Oct 28, 2020 7:33AM

Zormau posted:

A trans women and a man is absolutely not yaoi nor is it homosexuality of any sort

I don't think it's that cut and dried, but depending on the individual couple we're in really muddy waters. I'd say as long as the genitals of both parties are still male, it does constitute homosexual acts (not necessarily homoeroticism, though) from a purely biological perspective, not in terms of gender, and as soon as genitals are altered, we have a constellation that we don't really have words for yet. Definitions of the terms may also adapt over time, but as things are right now, biology and physiology is still an important factor.

No. All that matter is their gender. Biological sex is irrelevant. I'm giving you a fair warning, this side takes stuff like this incredibly seriously, so if you want to avoid perma ban, you should better rethink what you said, before you'll post another comment on this topic. And from my personal opinion what you just said was extremely insulting.

Okay but can we appreciate that the siblings are a tomboy and a femboy

Assuming that Naru isn't actually trans, yes.

And you just contradicted yourself. So if Naru was trans, they wouldn't be femboy? I thought gender didn't matter for those things.

last edited at Oct 28, 2020 10:38AM

Off-Topic, controversial, potentially offensive - read at your own risk - I just don't like deleting stuff, though maybe I should here

No. All that matter is their gender. Biological sex is irrelevant. I'm giving you a fair warning, this side takes stuff like this incredibly seriously, so if you want to avoid perma ban, you should better rethink what you said, before you'll post another comment on this topic. And from my personal opinion what you just said was extremely insulting.

I am not exactly new to this site, but if disagreement insults you, I'll apologise for offending you, but I'm not going back on what I said before I have an epiphany that changes my mind. That said, I don't think being called "gay" should be offensive to anyone in the modern west anymore - especially here. Now, if Nez-chan or any other mod comes along and asks/tells me to shut up, I'll comply, but I think having a reasonable argument should so far be permissible.

Here's an analogy: From the reactions I knew I would get I conclude that you may like to call me a "TERF" - trans exclusionary radical feminist - whether I agree with that assessment or not, because I would find that label offensive. That would also imply, that I'm a feminist. By many a definition (mainly pre-2015 ones, I'd think) I would be considered one, too. I reject that label, though, as it's been dragged through the mud enough. What label I prefer doesn't change the reality of things, though, and I wouldn't fault someone for going by what they perceive.

Okay but can we appreciate that the siblings are a tomboy and a femboy

Assuming that Naru isn't actually trans, yes.

And you just contradicted yourself. So if Naru was trans, they wouldn't be femboy? I thought gender didn't matter for those things.

Not a bad argument, and technically I guess you wouldn't be wrong if you want to define it that way, but I (personally) consider the terms "femboy" and "tomboy" as non-conforming expressions of gender, not sex, distinct from being a trans-man or trans-woman. It really is complicated, isn't it, and everyone seems to have some slightly different definitions and ideas here and there, right?

Wait a second, that would mean that there could me trans-men that are femboys and trans-women that are tomboys? Sounds funny, but I guess that would be a consequence and I'm down with that. If you find me using it differently in the past, that's evidence that I'm confusing even myself. Self-contradiction is a part of life, especially over a period of time when frames of reference may change and new information may be incorporated.

last edited at Oct 28, 2020 12:28PM

Wait... This is finished already? It seemed like it ended on a cliff hanger...

Or you know the siblings are just androgynous.

The transphobia jumped out.

Was that really the end? It felt like a set up for an actual final chapter where Ookuma brings Kanda to her parents and vice versa and it ends with a shot of the couple, not on this cliffhanger. It was an extremely cute chapter though.

Y'know what, Zormau, I'm gonna take you up on that shutting up offer. Kind of you to put it forward, thank you.

Sure, I'll try to circumnavigate the issue in future so things don't get ugly again.

last edited at Oct 28, 2020 6:01PM

Sexuality is just as much of a product of how a person is wired psychologically as their personality. You wouldn't say a person can't have a certain type of personality because of some physical aspect of their biology would you? You're confusing the terms sex and sexuality. Sex is biological, but sexuality is almost entirely mental. This is the reason why I have championed trans women and hermaphrodites identifying as female being included as part of yuri. It's part of who they are on the inside. Therefore, homosexuality has almost nothing to do whatsoever with biological sex, and is the reason trans women would be rightfully annoyed if you called their relationship with a man yaoi or homosexual.

Alas, since the author neglected to provide any further details about Naru, we're left to wait and guess until (hopefully) the sequel series comes out.

One quick guess about the sequel though: Naru reveals he is an intergalactic being made of light that must fight against those called the Void Lords. Naru and Shiba roam the cosmos, looking for those worthy of using the light to fight the servants of the void. Wait...this sounds awfully familiar....

last edited at Oct 28, 2020 8:44PM

Sexuality is just as much of a product of how a person is wired psychologically as their personality. You wouldn't say a person can't have a certain type of personality because of some physical aspect of their biology would you? You're confusing the terms sex and sexuality. Sex is biological, but sexuality is almost entirely mental. This is the reason why I have championed trans women and hermaphrodites identifying as female being included as part of yuri. It's part of who they are on the inside. Therefore, homosexuality has almost nothing to do whatsoever with biological sex, and is the reason trans women would be rightfully annoyed if you called their relationship with a man yaoi or homosexual.

That is really well argued and regardless of whether it's different from how I see it, it's certainly a reasonable way to look at it. Excellently (and carefully) phrased, with enough hedging to not make absolute claims. But aside from that praise, I won't comment on this anymore for now. I've offered to shut up on that topic, and I intend to do so right now.

Alas, since the author neglected to provide any further details about Naru, we're left to wait and guess until (hopefully) the sequel series comes out.

One quick guess about the sequel though: Naru reveals he is an intergalactic being made of light that must fight against those called the Void Lords. Naru and Shiba roam the cosmos, looking for those worthy of using the light to fight the servants of the void. Wait...this sounds awfully familiar....

True, I mean just look at Naru, no way that's a human male! Must be some sort of celestial.

That was nice and short

Ooh, I'm pretty interested in a queer relationship sequel focused on the bandmate and sibling.

You know, a non-trivial issue with determining someone's sexual orientation is the need to have a clear definition of what is the attraction depends on. Is it to one's gender regardless of their sex? Is it to their sex regardless of their gender? Is to one or more specific combinations of sex and gender? Settle that first, and then you could try answering the question "What is this person/character's sexual orientation?"

Relatedly, one could replace "homosexual" and "heterosexual" with "androphiliac" (attracted to males) and "gynophiliac" (attracted to females).

ckretaznmayden posted:

Ooh, I'm pretty interested in a queer relationship sequel focused on the bandmate and sibling.

You know you can use "brother" since Mizuki explicitly referred to Naru as such, right?

last edited at Oct 29, 2020 5:33AM

Ooh, I'm pretty interested in a queer relationship sequel focused on the bandmate and sibling.

THEY CAN'T JUST LEAVE IT LIKE THIS AFTER THAT ENDING PLEASEEEEEEEE

Easily passing cis boys

Loads gun

EDIT: Since apparently this is being debated, even though Kanda could have been read as trans-masc she obviously identifies as a woman, the same is probably true for her brother. I also doubt Mochi would sweeve from writing stereotypical yuri/yaoi for trans het

last edited at Oct 29, 2020 8:53AM

I was hoping that in the 21st century we'd finally get over the need to categorize and label everyone's identity and sexuality and just let people be unique individuals who don't fit into little boxes, but I guess it's still too soon for that.

Empirella posted:

I was hoping that in the 21st century we'd finally get over the need to categorize and label everyone's identity and sexuality and just let people be unique individuals who don't fit into little boxes, but I guess it's still too soon for that.

If you're expecting humanity to be able to move beyond stuff like that, you're vastly overestimating the species as a whole. There's a depressingly large chunk of the populace dead set on nothing more than backsliding and regressing. And that portion of the populace seems to be impossible to actually get rid of unfortunately.

I was hoping that in the 21st century we'd finally get over the need to categorize and label everyone's identity and sexuality and just let people be unique individuals who don't fit into little boxes, but I guess it's still too soon for that.

Eh? When it comes you how you treat people individuals, that ideal makes a lot of sense. However, when talking about broad swaths of people, it helps to have at least somewhat decent ways to subdivide them, both to make it clearer what you're talking about and to allow conversations that are narrower in scope then the whole of humanity and wider in scope than specific individuals.

As a somewhat unfortunate analog, consider ADHD. ADHD sounds relatively simple — Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, a disorder that makes people hyper and prevents them from paying attention, right? Well, no. Not really. ADHD actually encompasses a pretty broad range of symptoms that include executive dysfunction, time blindness, impulsivity, and difficulty controlling attention. What's more, not everyone who has ADHD will express all of those symptoms or express them in the same way. That means, it's really important to consider an individuals unique mix of symptoms when discussing how the condition effects their life and the what what strategies might help mitigate that. However, being able to discuss ADHD as a whole is also really helpful, since it helps you recognize broader trends or connect with people who have similar experiences.

Other human labels are similar. Most people aren't going to approach gender, sexuality, religion, ethnicity, nationality, or just about anything else through neatly predefined packages. If you really want to deal with any given individual, then you're going to have to do a lot of unpacking. At the same time, there are recognizable trends within various groups that make talking about them as groups helpful. If I say I'm attracted to women, that covers an incredibly broad range of people who will each have different relations to that word, most of whom probably aren't well defined by it, but at the same time it's also pretty clear that I wouldn't be attracted to someone like Macho Man Randy Savage.