Forum › Handsome Girl and Sheltered Girl discussion

joined Aug 29, 2019

Sexuality is just as much of a product of how a person is wired psychologically as their personality. You wouldn't say a person can't have a certain type of personality because of some physical aspect of their biology would you? You're confusing the terms sex and sexuality. Sex is biological, but sexuality is almost entirely mental. This is the reason why I have championed trans women and hermaphrodites identifying as female being included as part of yuri. It's part of who they are on the inside. Therefore, homosexuality has almost nothing to do whatsoever with biological sex, and is the reason trans women would be rightfully annoyed if you called their relationship with a man yaoi or homosexual.

That is really well argued and regardless of whether it's different from how I see it, it's certainly a reasonable way to look at it. Excellently (and carefully) phrased, with enough hedging to not make absolute claims. But aside from that praise, I won't comment on this anymore for now. I've offered to shut up on that topic, and I intend to do so right now.

Alas, since the author neglected to provide any further details about Naru, we're left to wait and guess until (hopefully) the sequel series comes out.

One quick guess about the sequel though: Naru reveals he is an intergalactic being made of light that must fight against those called the Void Lords. Naru and Shiba roam the cosmos, looking for those worthy of using the light to fight the servants of the void. Wait...this sounds awfully familiar....

True, I mean just look at Naru, no way that's a human male! Must be some sort of celestial.

Eh
joined Dec 16, 2014

That was nice and short

__sakura_futaba_persona_and_persona_5_drawn_by_kion_kun__d693cf24f18f5565a7cc666e236df3fc
joined Apr 9, 2019

Ooh, I'm pretty interested in a queer relationship sequel focused on the bandmate and sibling.

Nodoyue_avatar1
joined Aug 7, 2017

You know, a non-trivial issue with determining someone's sexual orientation is the need to have a clear definition of what is the attraction depends on. Is it to one's gender regardless of their sex? Is it to their sex regardless of their gender? Is to one or more specific combinations of sex and gender? Settle that first, and then you could try answering the question "What is this person/character's sexual orientation?"

Relatedly, one could replace "homosexual" and "heterosexual" with "androphiliac" (attracted to males) and "gynophiliac" (attracted to females).

ckretaznmayden posted:

Ooh, I'm pretty interested in a queer relationship sequel focused on the bandmate and sibling.

You know you can use "brother" since Mizuki explicitly referred to Naru as such, right?

last edited at Oct 29, 2020 5:33AM

Vamoaver
joined Apr 16, 2013

Ooh, I'm pretty interested in a queer relationship sequel focused on the bandmate and sibling.

THEY CAN'T JUST LEAVE IT LIKE THIS AFTER THAT ENDING PLEASEEEEEEEE

Tumblr_p5pa4n7ag21tandono1_400
joined Feb 21, 2019

Easily passing cis boys

Loads gun

EDIT: Since apparently this is being debated, even though Kanda could have been read as trans-masc she obviously identifies as a woman, the same is probably true for her brother. I also doubt Mochi would sweeve from writing stereotypical yuri/yaoi for trans het

last edited at Oct 29, 2020 8:53AM

Rosie-blank
joined Sep 21, 2019

I was hoping that in the 21st century we'd finally get over the need to categorize and label everyone's identity and sexuality and just let people be unique individuals who don't fit into little boxes, but I guess it's still too soon for that.

Dynasty_misc015
joined Nov 7, 2014

Empirella posted:

I was hoping that in the 21st century we'd finally get over the need to categorize and label everyone's identity and sexuality and just let people be unique individuals who don't fit into little boxes, but I guess it's still too soon for that.

If you're expecting humanity to be able to move beyond stuff like that, you're vastly overestimating the species as a whole. There's a depressingly large chunk of the populace dead set on nothing more than backsliding and regressing. And that portion of the populace seems to be impossible to actually get rid of unfortunately.

joined Aug 1, 2011

I was hoping that in the 21st century we'd finally get over the need to categorize and label everyone's identity and sexuality and just let people be unique individuals who don't fit into little boxes, but I guess it's still too soon for that.

Eh? When it comes you how you treat people individuals, that ideal makes a lot of sense. However, when talking about broad swaths of people, it helps to have at least somewhat decent ways to subdivide them, both to make it clearer what you're talking about and to allow conversations that are narrower in scope then the whole of humanity and wider in scope than specific individuals.

As a somewhat unfortunate analog, consider ADHD. ADHD sounds relatively simple — Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, a disorder that makes people hyper and prevents them from paying attention, right? Well, no. Not really. ADHD actually encompasses a pretty broad range of symptoms that include executive dysfunction, time blindness, impulsivity, and difficulty controlling attention. What's more, not everyone who has ADHD will express all of those symptoms or express them in the same way. That means, it's really important to consider an individuals unique mix of symptoms when discussing how the condition effects their life and the what what strategies might help mitigate that. However, being able to discuss ADHD as a whole is also really helpful, since it helps you recognize broader trends or connect with people who have similar experiences.

Other human labels are similar. Most people aren't going to approach gender, sexuality, religion, ethnicity, nationality, or just about anything else through neatly predefined packages. If you really want to deal with any given individual, then you're going to have to do a lot of unpacking. At the same time, there are recognizable trends within various groups that make talking about them as groups helpful. If I say I'm attracted to women, that covers an incredibly broad range of people who will each have different relations to that word, most of whom probably aren't well defined by it, but at the same time it's also pretty clear that I wouldn't be attracted to someone like Macho Man Randy Savage.

joined May 3, 2014

Empirella posted:

I was hoping that in the 21st century we'd finally get over the need to categorize and label everyone's identity and sexuality and just let people be unique individuals who don't fit into little boxes, but I guess it's still too soon for that.

If you're expecting humanity to be able to move beyond stuff like that, you're vastly overestimating the species as a whole. There's a depressingly large chunk of the populace dead set on nothing more than backsliding and regressing. And that portion of the populace seems to be impossible to actually get rid of unfortunately.

WHAT??? are you gonna ignore that 95% of world population falls into the either born male or female and stay that way? or the fact that they also are Heterosexual people? way will you describe THAT part as backsliding and regressing when many of them are the reason way LGBT has this much acceptence right now, are you really gonna generalize the whole humanity just cuz you don’t like labels? well I like them and won’t go away, I’m Trans and I wanna the Female identity and the Lesbian lable to stay were they are, even an small population of the LGBT thinks labels are usefull and not all of them think humanity needs to ger rid of identiy and labels when 95% doesn’t fall into that.

I also understand the need to not give that much vlaue to identity and labels, don’t judge people on thous and other negative things that come with identity and labels, that I can get behind but not the idea that we need to get rid of it like some LGBT people wanna.

joined May 3, 2014

People keep calling the hinted relationship between Naru and Shiba yaoi, but I don't think that's correct. When Ookuma asks them if they're a man, they very explicit say their sex is male. Now, that could just be an artifact of the translation, but it seems like a very specific and unusual wording. They also always appear in very feminine clothes and act in a more traditionally feminine way.

My guess is that Naru is actually trans. or at least somewhere on that end of the spectrum, in contrast to Mizuki who just prefers more masculine cloths both still thinks of themselves as a woman and who gets surprised when people mistake them for male.

Also, on an unrelated note, I'd forgotten this series was by Mochi. It's so different from most of their other works, but I really liked the less completely crack tone and setting. I hope we see more in a similar style, if not an outright continuation.

And I don't really see her parents as conservative. Overprotective - sure. But she obviously has 0 issues with dating another girl, even less than a regular person. Maybe she is just an airhead, but I don't think that is something she would be taught in a conservative household of a wealthy family.

It's worth noting that the same openness to new experiences that lead to her easily accepting Mizuki is also shown in other aspects of her personality. For example when she was confronted with new, and potentially unpleasant, dishes she decided to go for them without hesitation. That's more than just ditzyness and it's not a character trait you'd expect from overly conservative households.

oh for the love of....so we reach an point were the LGBT community keeps saying we should no care about identity and labels, but we still brand Feminin Man = gay!
now here we are again! Feminin Man = trans!

how about this one? some Feminin men = might be STRAIGHT or way the hell not Bisexual???(the humanity as an whole can’t comprehand that some man like to be more feminin or that some women like to be masculin) and then we get complains about how society labe things and care to much about identity when the LGBT itself doesn’t seemn to be able to think man can’t be feminin unless they are either gay or trans, I really feel sorry for Femboys at this point, or just Feminin man if they don’t use that Label

last edited at Oct 31, 2020 12:58AM

Utsugi
joined Nov 24, 2017

I'm in no way drunk enough to comprehend that right now.

TheWandererMerlin
joined Oct 31, 2020

I just realized,
Ookuma’s parents have to know Kanda is a girl because they investigated her through her resume right?? They probably did all sorts of background checks and found out.

Don't%20forget%20the%20best%20girl
joined Jul 22, 2018

People keep calling the hinted relationship between Naru and Shiba yaoi, but I don't think that's correct. When Ookuma asks them if they're a man, they very explicit say their sex is male. Now, that could just be an artifact of the translation, but it seems like a very specific and unusual wording. They also always appear in very feminine clothes and act in a more traditionally feminine way.

My guess is that Naru is actually trans. or at least somewhere on that end of the spectrum, in contrast to Mizuki who just prefers more masculine cloths both still thinks of themselves as a woman and who gets surprised when people mistake them for male.

Also, on an unrelated note, I'd forgotten this series was by Mochi. It's so different from most of their other works, but I really liked the less completely crack tone and setting. I hope we see more in a similar style, if not an outright continuation.

And I don't really see her parents as conservative. Overprotective - sure. But she obviously has 0 issues with dating another girl, even less than a regular person. Maybe she is just an airhead, but I don't think that is something she would be taught in a conservative household of a wealthy family.

It's worth noting that the same openness to new experiences that lead to her easily accepting Mizuki is also shown in other aspects of her personality. For example when she was confronted with new, and potentially unpleasant, dishes she decided to go for them without hesitation. That's more than just ditzyness and it's not a character trait you'd expect from overly conservative households.

oh for the love of....so we reach an point were the LGBT community keeps saying we should no care about identity and labels, but we still brand Feminin Man = gay!
now here we are again! Feminin Man = trans!

how about this one? some Feminin men = might be STRAIGHT or way the hell not Bisexual???(the humanity as an whole can’t comprehand that some man like to be more feminin or that some women like to be masculin) and then we get complains about how society labe things and care to much about identity when the LGBT itself doesn’t seemn to be able to think man can’t be feminin unless they are either gay or trans, I really feel sorry for Femboys at this point, or just Feminin man if they don’t use that Label

these days, people to put a label on everything

Mika-icon
joined Jan 31, 2013

I just realized,
Ookuma’s parents have to know Kanda is a girl because they investigated her through her resume right?? They probably did all sorts of background checks and found out.

omg I never even thought about that! I can just imagine that part of their relationship now: time to meet the parents. "Hey, I'm going out with a girl" "Yeah, we know"

DR2 Hajime Hinata
Phoenix%20picture
joined Jul 20, 2016

these outfits are really good though, the art in general is just really good

DR2 Hajime Hinata
Phoenix%20picture
joined Jul 20, 2016

WAIT A MINUTE, THAT'S THE END?????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I MEAN THE LITTLE SPEECH FROM KANDA WAS TOUCHING BUT STILL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Ektos9hxgae-ztl
joined Jan 30, 2019

Therefore, homosexuality has almost nothing to do whatsoever with biological sex

I disagree. But then again, it would depend on your definition. If homosexuality had little to do with biological sex, homophobia would not be that big of a thing. The reason homophobia exists is because conservative societies cannot fathom the idea of people being attracted only to the same sex (i.e., society's definition of homosexuality). You cannot "see" someone's gender identity as it's psychological but you can usually recognize their sex. It's sex-signaling. Your brain identifies these sex characteristics and you can't help but be attracted to the same (or opposite) sex, or at least to people who appear to have characteristics of the same (or opposite) sex (like trans people who transition). It's just a visual thing that's innate. Similarly, for heterosexuality; it has a lot to do with sex given how it also involves sexual reproduction.

last edited at Nov 14, 2020 10:05PM

Cpvknwduiaasntu
joined Nov 17, 2016

I don't understand what happened to this thread. Last time I was here it seemed somewhat normal, but it escalated into a huge discussion about identity. It seems people can't deal with characters who are gender nonconforming. But the manga is pretty clear in saying that Kanda is a girl and her brother is male, no matter how they look.

Anyway, the last chapter was cute, but as an ending it was pretty underwhelming. Hoping for a sequel of some kind.

Therefore, homosexuality has almost nothing to do whatsoever with biological sex

I disagree. But then again, it would depend on your definition. If homosexuality had little to do with biological sex, homophobia would not be that big of a thing. The reason homophobia exists is because conservative societies cannot fathom the idea of people being attracted only to the same sex (i.e., society's definition of homosexuality). You cannot "see" someone's gender identity as it's psychological but you can usually recognize their sex. It's sex-signaling. Your brain identifies these sex characteristics and you can't help but be attracted to the same (or opposite) sex, or at least to people who appear to have characteristics of the same (or opposite) sex (like trans people who transition). It's just a visual thing that's innate. Similarly, for heterosexuality; it has a lot to do with sex given how it also involves sexual reproduction.

I just wanted to say that I agree with you. I'm a lesbian and I care about biological sex. I understand that not everyone is the same, but homosexuality is based on the same (homo) sex (sexuality). I didn't think it was controversial to say, especially in spaces that are supposed to be LGBT-friendly. If homosexuality wasn't biological, then nobody would be gay, since homophobia is a thing in most countries and logically you'd want to avoid being oppressed. But since you can't help who you're attracted to, it's not like you can choose.

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