Ah, that sparkly Yes. :D

Reading this chapter made me think that we really don’t need to worry about this series, either where the story is going or what the art and storytelling might ultimately look like.

It won’t get here fast enough, but then it never did.

last edited at Aug 29, 2020 2:55PM

Apparently, The Room does not support 3P's. A part of me is disappointed in The Room for being so traditional.

I like the art

as a berserk and hunter x hunter fan im not even fazed by this

YES.

The fact that some people are trying to excuse this is disgusting tbh.

Look, I don't have a problem with the portrayal of immortality and criminality in fictional medium. To do so would be absurdly hypocritical.

That said.. that said. This is not a happy story or a good ending. Let's not get it twisted guys. A happy ending would be both the MC's guardians struck off their medical licenses, a conviction for child abuse and handed a sexual offender registry because that's what this is yo. It's 2020 not medieval times, they know right from wrong just like we do and they have the same responsibilities.
We can enjoy this show as it is but to try and pretend like what went down was even remotely morally or legally excusable is just insane..

Anyway, still thoroughly enjoyed, despite what looked like a "this is all okay" message at the end. 7/10.

last edited at Sep 4, 2020 5:35AM

The fact that some people are trying to excuse this is disgusting tbh.

Look, I don't have a problem with the portrayal of immortality and criminality in fictional medium. To do so would be absurdly hypocritical.

That said.. that said. This is not a happy story or a good ending. Let's not get it twisted guys. A happy ending would be both the MC's guardians struck off their medical licenses, a conviction for child abuse and handed a sexual offender registry because that's what this is yo. It's 2020 not medieval times, they know right from wrong just like we do and they have the same responsibilities.
We can enjoy this show as it is but to try and pretend like what went down was even remotely morally or legally excusable is just insane..

Anyway, still thoroughly enjoyed, despite what looked like a "this is all okay" message at the end. 7/10.

You're disgusted yet you enjoyed it. Despite the tags, you read it. Hypocrite.

@T0D13

It's not even over yet, lmao. The author just decided to do a re-do before continuing the story further.

The fact that some people are trying to excuse this is disgusting tbh.

Look, I don't have a problem with the portrayal of immortality and criminality in fictional medium. To do so would be absurdly hypocritical.

That said.. that said. This is not a happy story or a good ending. Let's not get it twisted guys. A happy ending would be both the MC's guardians struck off their medical licenses, a conviction for child abuse and handed a sexual offender registry because that's what this is yo. It's 2020 not medieval times, they know right from wrong just like we do and they have the same responsibilities.
We can enjoy this show as it is but to try and pretend like what went down was even remotely morally or legally excusable is just insane..

Anyway, still thoroughly enjoyed, despite what looked like a "this is all okay" message at the end. 7/10.

Good thing we both seem to agree that nobody but a fucking moron would think that because a fictional story presents a certain behavior as a positive thing, that makes the same behavior excusable or morally acceptable in real life.

Because otherwise that would mean we were unaware of the difference between real life and fiction, where all sorts of behavior, ranging from bopping children on the head to stealing cars and racing dangerously around in them to setting people on fire with flamethrowers (all of which in real life are Not OK, to be sure), is depicted as being desirable, morally acceptable, and even hilarious in the context of the fiction.

All of that being a set of facts so obvious that it’s a bit of a puzzle why anybody except a fucking moron—which we agree neither of us are—would feel the need to bring it up.

It's 2020 not medieval times, they know right from wrong just like we do and they have the same responsibilities.

The amateur historian in me takes issue with this sentence on multiple levels. ( ͡ಠ ʖ̯ ͡ಠ)

It's 2020 not medieval times, they know right from wrong just like we do and they have the same responsibilities.

The amateur historian in me takes issue with this sentence on multiple levels. ( ͡ಠ ʖ̯ ͡ಠ)

Given that the discussion about the apparent contradiction of how stories give audiences pleasure by depicting behavior that people would find repugnant in real life is literally the oldest recorded discussion about stories in history (see: Plato; Aristotle), I can only concur.

@T0D13

It's not even over yet, lmao. The author just decided to do a re-do before continuing the story further.

Does that mean that we have to experience that Senpai flashback hell again? shudders

The fact that some people are trying to excuse this is disgusting tbh.

WALL OF ABSURDITY

Anyway, still thoroughly enjoyed, despite what looked like a "this is all okay" message at the end. 7/10.

LOLOL

I don't think Akira even has a medical license, she's just a pharma HR manager/exec with a penchant for suddenly embracing pharmacy staff who want to call her onee-sama. Which is a very inappropriate thing to do to people in real life (who aren't me), by the way. Strange how that works!

@T0D13

It's not even over yet, lmao. The author just decided to do a re-do before continuing the story further.

Does that mean that we have to experience that Senpai flashback hell again? shudders

I don't hate the Miyuki arc, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of the more radical changes she makes to the story when she said she's focusing more on Asuka/Ayako for the re-edit. It's still important to the plot and Taiyaki loves her siscon characters, but it's weird to read the earlier volumes and not have it brought up much, aside from leading Ayako to think Asuka had a history with Jun.

last edited at Sep 4, 2020 5:20PM

Does that mean that we have to experience that Senpai flashback hell again? shudders

I don't hate the Miyuki arc, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of the more radical changes she makes to the story when she said she's focusing more on Asuka/Ayako for the re-edit. It's still important to the plot and Taiyaki loves her siscon characters, but it's weird to read the earlier volumes and not have it brought up much, aside from leading Ayako to think Asuka had a history with Jun.

Viewed like that seems like there would be a chance we would see more, or at least more refs to it in the early parts.

I agree it is important to the story - it establishes Asuka's discovery of her feelings as well as her experience/maturity (she knows what she wants and what she doesn't and she went far enough that she when talks of going "all the way" with her mom she definitely knows what that means in a concrete way - it isn't just some vague class-S fantasy about getting closer). The way she responds to Miyuki's advances also gives quite a lot of insight into her personality.

Part of the value of the arc is establishing Asuka's ability to have a "life" independently of her mother (she just doesn't like to), I'm not sure it would be possible to do that without temporarily shifting focus off Ayako/Asuka.

It will be interesting to see how Taiyaki handles it.

I hope Taiyaki adds something, a small word frame or some other common device, to remind readers at the beginning of a chapter that it's a flashback. I can understand not using the black borders, since there's flashbacks within the flashbacks, but I had no clue what was going on when I got to chapter 12 because there was no "X years ago" or anything to denote a change in time period.

The fact that some people are trying to excuse this is disgusting tbh.

Look, I don't have a problem with the portrayal of immortality and criminality in fictional medium. To do so would be absurdly hypocritical.

That said.. that said. This is not a happy story or a good ending. Let's not get it twisted guys. A happy ending would be both the MC's guardians struck off their medical licenses, a conviction for child abuse and handed a sexual offender registry because that's what this is yo. It's 2020 not medieval times, they know right from wrong just like we do and they have the same responsibilities.
We can enjoy this show as it is but to try and pretend like what went down was even remotely morally or legally excusable is just insane..

Anyway, still thoroughly enjoyed, despite what looked like a "this is all okay" message at the end. 7/10.

In addition to the "wrong, but ok in fiction camp" who have already spoken up, I'll point out there are those of us who, like Akira, think the specific situation as described would actually be ethically "ok" irl (that said a real situation that well justified is extremely unlikely).

Since this has been discussed at length earlier in the comments (and more recently the in-story reasoning from Akira), I'll try to be brief (... and after writing it, so much for that hope).

First up law/morality/ethics are all different things; legal/illegal isn't good/bad, even if that is the aspiration it can never perfectly align. I'm not going to be talking generalities here, obviously parent-child incest isn't a good idea in general (in the sense of not intrinsic/universal good), but that is not the same thing always being unequivocally bad.

There are various ethical frameworks used to reason about right/wrong, one that seems relevant here is consequentialism - judging the"rightness" of an action by consideration of its consequences.

"they love each other, what is the harm?" it is a deceptively simple, but powerful argument.

The crux of it is risk vs harm. Sure there are myriad potential negative risks associated with power imbalance, age gap and overlapping family-romantic bonds, but none of them are guaranteed to materialize as harms. They care deeply about each other, and Asuka is actively trying to get better at considering Ayako's perspective - probably the only negative outcomes they couldn't work out together is what other people might do to them if they find out... which by modern sensibilities is a lousy thing to base your romantic aspirations on.

Much of the uniqueness of this story is in the situation that has been carefully crafted to set up a situation where the "normal" incest negatives are absent or mitigated, to create the potential for a "good" mother daughter romance.
* Asuka initiated things, and has been the one pushing the boundaries (ie not pressured/groomed)
* Asuka has a clear understanding of her feelings, having struggled with them for years. (ie not confused/displaced feelings)
* Asuka has never wanted for affection. (ie not substituting romance for missing maternal affection)
* They are the centre of each other's life by choice, not for want of other opportunities. (not desperation/loneliness)
* Ayako has been trying to do the right thing. Her primary motivation is what is best for Asuka. She has been wracked by guilt - Akira got though to her by emphasizing Asuka's feelings. (not selfish).

Without all that context it would just be a titillating story about mother and daughter making out, but with it it becomes something much more interesting making a hugely taboo relationship relatable and maybe even ethically justifiable.

If Ayako had just jumped on Asuka and seduced her when she found her asleep on her bed at 14, it would have been a very different story.

btw as regards legality - since they have only kissed so far it would actually be very tough to prosecute. Up until the tongue kiss only their knowledge of the feelings behind it put it definitely outside the limits of acceptable mother-daughter behavior (how much kissy is too much kissy?), and even the tongue kiss would be more eyebrow raising than definitely illegal (sex crimes are usually defined around genital contact, and ordinary assault would require Asuka to be unhappy with the situation. Some jurisdictions have corrupting a minor/grooming offenses, but it would be extremely unusual to use them for a "victim" that old, Asuka is over 16, well outside the intended purpose of those laws).

"They love each other, what is the harm?"

This has been my mantra for years now. I love how careful this story is to not depict anything that could be considered abuse on the part of Ayako. Anybody decrying this story either hasn't read it, or is in total denial over its actual contents.

We can enjoy this show as it is but to try and pretend like what went down was even remotely morally or legally excusable is just insane..

Anyway, still thoroughly enjoyed, despite what looked like a "this is all okay" message at the end. 7/10.

In addition to the "wrong, but ok in fiction camp" who have already spoken up, I'll point out there are those of us who, like Akira, think the specific situation as described would actually be ethically "ok" irl (that said a real situation that well justified is extremely unlikely).

I’ve snipped most of this really excellent post for space, but it does the best job possible in explaining why this particular series has earned a positive response as an interesting set of characters in a compelling situation rather than as just a titillating spectacle of taboo-breaking.

I still think the “it’s fiction” is a stronger counteragument against the “can’t you depraved fools see this is WRONG?!?” position than the “this situation is as OK as it gets” argument, because even though you’ve shown that the latter is true, even under the best circumstances any incestuous relationship obviously is still inherently immensely fraught.

At minimum, it seems inevitable that in the long run a relationship combining the parental and erotic roles in the same person is going to be confusing at best for both parties (as for instance, it might be far less so with sibling incest), and the social consequences of the relationship being revealed (the list of people who already know about their feelings continues to increase) would be catastrophic. (Like everyone else, of course, I eagerly await the consummation of the Asuka/Ayako relationship nonetheless.)

So for me, the strongest analogy is to say that most rational people would agree that in real life the world would be better off if there were no such thing as assassins-for-hire, but that has nothing at all to do with the ethics of getting absorbed in the adventures of John Wick or Ogami Itto, and that enjoying the Fast & Furious movies does not constitute an endorsement of car theft, and that only a fool would think otherwise.

last edited at Sep 6, 2020 9:27AM

We can enjoy this show as it is but to try and pretend like what went down was even remotely morally or legally excusable is just insane..

Anyway, still thoroughly enjoyed, despite what looked like a "this is all okay" message at the end. 7/10.

In addition to the "wrong, but ok in fiction camp" who have already spoken up, I'll point out there are those of us who, like Akira, think the specific situation as described would actually be ethically "ok" irl (that said a real situation that well justified is extremely unlikely).

I’ve snipped most of this really excellent post for space, but it does the best job possible in explaining why this particular series has earned a positive response as an interesting set of characters in a compelling situation rather than as just a titillating spectacle of taboo-breaking.

I still think the “it’s fiction” is a stronger counteragument against the “can’t you depraved fools see this is WRONG?!?” position than the “this situation is as OK as it gets” argument, because even though you’ve shown that the latter is true, even under the best circumstances any incestuous relationship obviously is still inherently immensely fraught.
...
So for me, the strongest analogy is to say that most rational people would agree that in real life the world would be better off if there were no such thing as assassins-for-hire, but that has nothing at all to do with the ethics of getting absorbed in the adventures of John Wick or Ogami Itto, and that enjoying the Fast & Furious movies does not constitute an endorsement of car theft, and that only a fool would think otherwise.

Yes, "it's fiction" is a good argument, and much more broadly applicable (& definitely, reading/enjoying, or even writing, isn't endorsement of character actions). I wasn't trying to dismiss it. It is definitely the go-to when people complain "why does this even exist?"/"how can you read/like this?", and of course some of the most interesting stories are where characters do the wrong thing for understandable/relatable reasons.

It was more that since the OP mentioned morality and "good endings" I thought I would raise the flag for the camp that do support it in that context. (I suppose it depends a bit on what the "this" is in "trying to excuse this" - the story or the actions in it).

It was more that since the OP mentioned morality and "good endings" I thought I would raise the flag for the camp that do support it in that context. (I suppose it depends a bit on what the "this" is in "trying to excuse this" - the story or the actions in it).

Your post clarified for me something specific about why this series appeals to a broader audience than the "incest is always wincest" niche, so thanks for that. I've always been fascinated by the question of how Taiyaki is going to resolve this story in terms of the wider social world--at this point my wild guess is that somehow Akira ends up running interference for the happy familial couple.

I've always been fascinated by the question of how Taiyaki is going to resolve this story in terms of the wider social world--at this point my wild guess is that somehow Akira ends up running interference for the happy familial couple.

I've thought up various scenarios for how this could be resolved, but none of them are exactly a "good end." This could end very well, not really satisfyingly, or completely awfully, and my own storytelling ability is only able to come up with the latter two. Taiyaki hasn't disappointed so far, though, so I'm hopeful.

Your post clarified for me something specific about why this series appeals to a broader audience than the "incest is always wincest" niche, so thanks for that.

I have to admit I didn't fully realise that point myself, since I was coming from a very conscious analytical perspective when I was writing it, and most people don't "enjoy" stories that way. But all the things I listed do seem likely to be absorbed by readers on a subconscious level which would work well to take the "eeeww factor" out of the mother-daughter romance. Personally the first thing that hooked me was that I found Asuka really relatable, (incestuous obsessions aside) I was a lot like that as a teenager (also Tiayaki's sense of humour).

The theme of "wholesome" incest makes me think of the Elsanna fandom which is where I first encountered it.

I've always been fascinated by the question of how Taiyaki is going to resolve this story in terms of the wider social world--at this point my wild guess is that somehow Akira ends up running interference for the happy familial couple.

Definitely lots of potential there. Akira does seem to be shaping up as a staunch supporter. It would be a stretch to have them openly together "happily ever after", but hopefully Taikai comes up with some sort of way for them to be together. Lots of potential for comedy and drama (eg being proud gfs to some, mother and daughter to others, and juggling the different social spheres).

wow