it's Liz who fucked up.

Which is something we know since the "slave" contract she put up.

I know couples who enjoy that dynamic.

To each their own

Maki's getting more and more pitiable as every chapter goes by.

You think so? I mean, sure, Liz exploits Maki, but that seems to be just a part of their slave play. BDSM undertones are all over this story. And it's consensual as far as we can tell.

Putting that aside, Liz often behaves like a spoiled child, but Maki is basically the supportive girlfriend all along. And relationships are about trust, after all. In my personal opinion, Maki isn't pitiable for trusting Liz, it's Liz who fucked up.

Pitiable just means it elicits feelings of compassion and sadness for the suffering of someone else, in this case Maki being a lovely partner and her partner turning around and cheating on her while she's none the wiser. Liz's treatment of her makes me feel bad for her that doesn't require Maki to be in any way responsible for her mistreatment.

Ugh. It had a good start but I was never a fan of this author's characters. That's not to disparage them, it's understandable why some of their characters would act the way they do, but regardless I am not a fan of manipulative games, love triangles, zero attempts at communication, and cheating. I guess I'll stick it out though to at least see where this goes. Also art is pretty.

And just to be fair, there is one main reason I'm sticking around, and that's because it's explicitly exploring being lesbian in what amounts to "the real world". Izumi's desire to change the world around her is nice to see in a fictional setting and not actually something I see often. Her song in particular was great.

It is disappointing that as of now Maki has been relegated to obedient, servile girlfriend and I hope she shows more character soon.

last edited at May 24, 2020 9:27PM

Ugh. It had a good start but I was never a fan of this author's characters. That's not to disparage them, it's understandable why some of their characters would act the way they do, but regardless I am not a fan of manipulative games, love triangles, zero attempts at communication, and cheating. I guess I'll stick it out though to at least see where this goes. Also art is pretty.

I know we use “author” as shorthand for a manga creator, but in this case Momono Moto is simply the artist; the writer is first-time manga creator/voice actress Kitta Izumi. I’m sure MM’s influence is substantial, of course, but credit/blame where it goes.

MM’s art is almost always at least good, and often better than that. Lotta dumpster-fire characters, though.

Yup. Never fall in love with someone who isn't finished loving someone else.

I am not a fan of manipulative games, love triangles, zero attempts at communication, and cheating.

Yeah, Momono Moto is definitely not for you. Even if, as people have pointed out, she didn't write the script for this one, it's still a very Momono style story.

Also, you might wanna give Kodama Naoko a miss too.

I am not a fan of manipulative games, love triangles, zero attempts at communication, and cheating.

Yeah, Momono Moto is definitely not for you. Even if, as people have pointed out, she didn't write the script for this one, it's still a very Momono style story.

Except Yuunagi Marbled. Everyone should read Yuunagi Marbled.

Except Yuunagi Marbled. Everyone should read Yuunagi Marbled.

Oh, I can also recommend her one-shots. A girl in ultramarine is still one of my favorite yuri stories. But anything in her one-shot collections should probably be okay.

Edit: personally, as someone who does enjoy Momono's trademark schemes and drama, I think Yuunagi Marbled is a bit too bland. But as far as Momono's work goes, it definitely fits OP's taste more than, say, my personal favorite.

last edited at May 24, 2020 10:18PM

Ughh every time I see a new chapter of this I’m like

The problem with this thing is not the drama. The problem is that the characters don't seem to react to it. Liz clearly felt bad after fucking around with asshole-senpai, bad enough to cry a few times afterwards. Yet, in the party she's letting senpai get close to her all over again. She's not reacting, she's not doing anything to change her situation. Then we have Maki, who has been a non-entity for while now. All this drama was basically passing around her without she even noticing that something was going on. And she's supposed to be the MC? This isn't how you write an MC. Anyway, now finally she might find out what's going on. The question is, is she gonna react to it and, I don't know, dump Liz's sorry ass, maybe? Or is she just gonna brush the whole thing off and keep being the passive non-entity she's been so far?

If the characters don't start doing something about all this shit, the drama is pointless.

Someone in a previous post said this manga was realistic and well-written. I won't comment on the realistic part, but I can tell you it isn't well written. It's pretty crappy writing actually.

last edited at May 24, 2020 11:51PM

well i think sumire is manipulating liz. i bet maki will dump liz and sumire uses this to make liz dependant on her to then dump her again to prove her point of girl on girl relationships wont work. atleast i hope something like this happen

Delicious what, though? More salt?

Ughh every time I see a new chapter of this I’m like

Not to sound rude, but nobody is forcing you to read it.

Liz clearly felt bad after fucking around with asshole-senpai, bad enough to cry a few times afterwards. Yet, in the party she's letting senpai get close to her all over again. She's not reacting, she's not doing anything to change her situation.

You're forgetting that Liz' senpai is also her band's sponsor. Keeping things cordial is not only sensible but also necessary. Besides, Sumire is a manipulative toxic bitch, and Liz still has feelings for her, which makes her even easier to manipulate. It's hard to deal with a situation like that.

As for the rest of your comment, well, same goes as above. You can just ignore this manga if you don't like it.

i bet maki will dump liz and sumire uses this to make liz dependant on her to then dump her again to prove her point of girl on girl relationships wont work.

I'm not going to risk any predictions because it's hard to tell with this author. But I don't think Sumire would dump Liz just to prove a point. If anything, she's aiming to make Liz her plaything, while, idk, getting married to some random guy on the side? Could happen.

last edited at May 25, 2020 3:18AM

Liz don't fall for that shit Maki love u that blonde hair bitch need to leave but I do like me some drama

I feel like Maki is going to leave because she hurt but Liz going to have tears n remind her of that contact

Ugh. It had a good start but I was never a fan of this author's characters. That's not to disparage them, it's understandable why some of their characters would act the way they do, but regardless I am not a fan of manipulative games, love triangles, zero attempts at communication, and cheating.

I know we use “author” as shorthand for a manga creator, but in this case Momono Moto is simply the artist; the writer is first-time manga creator/voice actress Kitta Izumi. I’m sure MM’s influence is substantial, of course, but credit/blame where it goes.

Will keep in mind. Actually the style of the starting story was different enough that I didn't realize Momono Moto contributed until I looked at who the authors were and assumed MM must have contributed to the story cause the above elements were very present.

Except Yuunagi Marbled. Everyone should read Yuunagi Marbled.

Oh, I can also recommend her one-shots. A girl in ultramarine is still one of my favorite yuri stories. But anything in her one-shot collections should probably be okay.

Edit: personally, as someone who does enjoy Momono's trademark schemes and drama, I think Yuunagi Marbled is a bit too bland. But as far as Momono's work goes, it definitely fits OP's taste more than, say, my personal favorite.

Funny enough, I actually did not like Yuunagi Marbled and from what I've read of Ignorance that's available on dynasty, I found there were some cringe, hope-nothing-bad-happens moments but I'm hopeful for it overall. So I guess Momono's works are pretty hit or miss for me and it varies for which ones I personally find enjoyable or don't.

This chapter just pissed me off...

Is it common to see lesbians who are still hung up by their ex-partner?

I mean, that depend on how you break up with your ex. Also that's something that doesn't concern specifically lesbians. Some persons still hang up with her exs if they didn't break up on bad terms.

Funny enough, I actually did not like Yuunagi Marbled

That's fine--I'm sure your life will be unchanged now that you are dead to me.

cecile posted:

Liz exploits Maki, but that seems to be just a part of their slave play. BDSM undertones are all over this story. And it's consensual as far as we can tell.

There's difference between BDSM dynamic/"slave" live and abusive relationship/being a shitty girlfriend/person. I'd argue most of Liz antics fall into latter category and Maki willingness to try BDSM doesn't give her license for doing anything she feels like. Also important thing to remember about contracts like that is that they're not legally binding in any way, shape or form and are more of a way for both parties to set on concrete rules and be able to recheck and revisit it every time they want. If someone actually forces you to sing something that could be taken to court cough 50 shades cough then it should be your biggest red flag to turn back, run and never look back.

cecile posted:

Also, you might wanna give Kodama Naoko a miss too.

Yes. Because she never, writes anything that's good or fluffy (and honestly most of her one-shots are fine). As was said many times. She can write happy, fluffy stories. She just isn't interested in doing so most of the time.

Lilliwyt posted:

Is it common to see lesbians who are still hung up by their ex-partner?

I mean, that depend on how you break up with your ex. Also that's something that doesn't concern specifically lesbians. Some persons still hang up with her exs if they didn't break up on bad terms.

I think Terry means more specifically still not being over your past lover, but yes, it's not something exclusive to lesbians, but more depends on the kind of person you are and how exactly you broke up. Especially if you were deeply in love or together for a long time, it can take a long time to stop caring for other person and you might even never really get over your love for them.

last edited at May 25, 2020 9:40AM

Is it common to see lesbians who are still hung up by their ex-partner?

Honestly? Yes.

There's difference between BDSM dynamic/"slave" live and abusive relationship/being a shitty girlfriend/person. I'd argue most of Liz antics fall into latter category and Maki willingness to try BDSM doesn't give her license for doing anything she feels like.

Well there's an important distinction here. The "sleep on the floor to make room for the bear" and "using Maki as a horse" things are arguably just play.

On the other hand, Liz does behave like a spoiled child and often mistreats Maki simply because she can't handle her own emotions. The way she reacts to getting those earrings, for instance, is just childish. So yeah, she can be an idiot at times.

Also important thing to remember about contracts like that is that they're not legally binding in any way, shape or form and are more of a way for both parties to set on concrete rules and be able to recheck and revisit it every time they want. If someone actually forces you to sing something that could be taken to court cough 50 shades cough then it should be your biggest red flag to turn back, run and never look back.

I think we can both agree that Liz's "slave contract" is just a joke. It really doesn't have any legal value whatsoever.

In the end I prefer this direct confrontation instead of having lies or things going on behind...
It can be stressful but it is absolutely necessary that maki is strong and that she is direct towards the senpai but also towards liz, that she makes it clear to her that it is her or senpai...
Because liz has to choose, we can clearly feel that she has more affection for maki but that in front of her senpai she is weak even if she wants to say no to her...
The senpai even if everybody hates her seems to really want to get back seriously with liz, it's not just a whim, she must really regret it. Everybody makes mistakes now I'm on maki's side so ^^
What is positive in this drama is that we won't have to wait 5 chapters for the trio to explain themselves and above all it was necessary for Liz to forget her past, the author goes through this drama...
Finally for me this manga has as biggest defect its sequence, it lacks a few pages per chapter to better develop the story, we pass too quickly on the details and therefore on the feelings of each.

last edited at May 27, 2020 8:55AM

Funny enough, I actually did not like Yuunagi Marbled

That's fine--I'm sure your life will be unchanged now that you are dead to me.

Nooo, so mamy Yagakimi memories we share, how could you Bla.

Also, you might wanna give Kodama Naoko a miss too.

Yes. Because she never, writes anything that's good or fluffy

Ha yeah, I may never read NTR for the rest of my life but she has some other nice works.

On the other hand, Liz does behave like a spoiled child and often mistreats Maki simply because she can't handle her own emotions. The way she reacts to getting those earrings, for instance, is just childish. So yeah, she can be an idiot at times.

Can second that she's an idiot under her cool stage presence. An idiot who verges more and more towards being completely unlikable for me. She makes Maki get out for something she could have had no way of knowing about, slaps her to "share the pain" again for something that Maki has no responsibility for, cheats on her at the drop of a pin, and then doesn't make any sort of commitment despite feeling guilty af. Standing up to her senpai could happen soon. Or if she wants to wholeheartedly aim for the senpai, you know what, go for it. It's going to spectacularly blow up in her face but at least Maki's not being strung along then. Although tbh the real outcome of her leaving Maki would probably be Maki being heart broken and a blob so I doubt the story will go there. Or if Maki's passiveness is taken to the eleventh, maybe she'll try to be happy for Liz.

Well if it wasn't clear Izumi's treatment of Maki is what pisses me off. Though Maki pisses me off too to a lesser degree. The senpai is already a cookie cutter seductress/paper-flat source of drama so whatever.

I just want to see them face consequences for their actions damn it.

One of the differences between good writing and bad writing is that good writers are able to effectively execute switches in narrative point-of-view/focus (what academics call “focalization”) from one character to another so that readers stay invested (not “sympathetic” necessarily, or hoping that the character achieves their goals—just aligned with the character to a certain extent). YagaKimi and AnoKiss were each in their own way excellent at this, moving readers’ interest from one character to another without abandoning the previous established characterizations.

This story started out being about Maki, and her experience—Liz was the mysterious foil who aroused Maki’s interest, but she was basically a blank slate. Once we started learning about who Liz was as a person, things started breaking down badly, for all the reasons my late friend riverFlower mentions. We don’t have to like her or approve of her actions, but those actions need to be convincingly presented so we don’t just say, “she’s an idiot.” (Which she is.)

Maki, meanwhile, has all but disappeared in terms of her personal growth or self-realization. There’s potentially a good story (I’ve said this before, I know) in a plot where a naive young girl discovers her lesbian sub kink and helps a damaged idol find happiness in a consensual D/S relationship, but this has become the story of thoughtlessly cruel idiot and a passive doormat idiot.

There's no such thing as "good writing" and "bad writing", there's just the things you like, and the things you don't. It's a personal thing. So, for instance, you cite AnoKiss as an example of "good writing", to argue that Liberty is bad writing, but honestly, I kind of like Liberty more than AnoKiss (by a smidge, but yes).

It's the same discussion that people have been carrying on over and over for decades over stuff like Harry Potter, or pop music. If you like an artwork, it's "good" by your standards, while it might be "bad" for someone else. You can't categorize things as objectively good or bad based on arbitrary criteria, that's kinda conceited.