Forum › My First Love Was a Beautiful "Girl" discussion

GendoIkari Uploader
Tsuglenda
joined Aug 10, 2011

Maybe I'm being a bit naive today, but when someone says "I've never really heard of [obscure but real phenomenon], I don't think it happens" and you know for a fact that [obscure but real phenomenon] happens, my first thought is to tell them that yes, actually, it does happen, not to accuse them of being awful bigots and start drawing comparisons to Jim Crow. Like, sure, if they reject your explanation out of hand, or display a continued pattern of willful ignorance, then totally get mad about it, but all this? Really?

There is a very big difference between "I've never heard of" and "therefore it shouldn't be depicted", and an even bigger one to get to "because that doesn't exist in real life". That very much is a bigoted mindset and I really don't care to tone down calling someone out for that to what you consider acceptable levels. It's not baseball, you don't get three strikes, it is the words themselves and the ideology they convey that count.

And like, you talk a lot about people seeing things in black and white, and drawing up arbitrary cultural battle lines, and that all sounds very nice. Meanwhile, you've completely muddled up the person who hadn't heard about full-time crossdressers with the person who made the reference to free speech, as if they're completely interchangeable because they were nominally on the same side.

I did no such thing, in fact I only referenced that person briefly in that I find it particularly bullshit a defense, regardless of who you are defending and endorsing in your defense of. I do not mean for that last bit to apply to anyone but the person who said it.

And you've decided that I'm one of those people who doesn't understand the meaning of genuine representation and just treats it as a game for social points because I've somehow accused you of not wanting trans stories to exist? Because apparently that happened?

If the idea that I am not in favor of more trans stories is not what you meant by "you're acting like people wishing for something other than the thousandth [...]" then I apologize for reading too far into your logic. I also do not mean that you as a person, nor anyone else in that thread, don't understand representation. That was more aimed at society at large, and a bit at myself. I think we all sometimes fall into that trap of thinking that because we are part of a diverse culture we can understand diverse cultures as a whole. So I can understand saying something bigoted like that because you believe your experience to be more broad than it is, but at the same time you are still responsible for your words and those that you defend. It is not the duty of the world to present itself to you in order to enrich your understanding, not having been introduced to some culture is not an excuse to say that they don't, and certainly not that they shouldn't, be represented.

is all this really necessary?

I'm afraid this goes to a mistake you made earlier, I'm very much not upset by this. I honestly do not care what you think about any other group of people when you go to bed tonight. In fact I really doubt I'll ever have made much of any change on you or any one else I've ever talked to, more than just on social issues but for pretty much anything I believe, but I find it absolutely necessary to speak my mind in response to such things because it is common and open discourse that allows us to build understanding regardless of whether we agree or not.

Userpic-128-white
joined Jul 21, 2015

The recurring theme in this thread and some other ones of these characters only being legitimate if the character is trans and not a crossdresser is a little naive at the very least. It's a real phenomenon with an extremely long history in the US and some amount of history in Japan, it's not just a reader fetish or author fetish. Some of the people writing these mangas have explicitly done their research - I can't speak for Kobayashi Kina but Fumiko Fumi interviewed some trans women and mental health specialists in her home country and has written a manga about a real crossdresser from Japan who explicitly identifies as male.

At the very least, I think it's healthy to have some stories out there that don't enforce a 'either you're a girl or you're a boy' binary on kids who may still be getting a grip on their identity and their feelings. I personally know multiple trans women who started with crossdressing or drag before realizing who they really were.

last edited at Dec 9, 2018 7:11AM

Sshot-8
joined Oct 25, 2011

I like how when he turns to leave, his necklace explodes and he falls on his face for no reason. This is clearly going to be a story of great depth.

Sample_0bc66a359c3af4a24555c4bef5b4c655
joined Oct 5, 2015

This thread:
"Ugh, it's an inaccurate representation of crossdresser culture, dropped", "Ugh, another story with a crossdresser, can we get something with trans?"

Meanwhile, me:
"The main heroine's design reminds me of Hotaru on some panels. Yeah, I'm gonna follow that."

Alice Cheshire Moderator
Dynasty_misc015
joined Nov 7, 2014

Angius posted:

Meanwhile, me:
"The main heroine's design reminds me of Hotaru on some panels. Yeah, I'm gonna follow that."

Hotaru from what though? Only thing that comes to mind to me is Hotaru from Ebihime's visual novel AIdol which could actually work here but it could very easily be totally wrong still.

Sena
joined Jun 27, 2017

The only solution to this problem is that the other guy starts crossdressing too.

Don't ask me why. I just know these things.

Pee
joined Oct 1, 2014

The only solution to this problem is that the other guy starts crossdressing too.

Don't ask me why. I just know these things.

I thought the same thing!

Megu
joined Mar 22, 2014

Nice to see Subaru and Kyousuke.

Cv7t70_vyaagwe3
joined Nov 19, 2017

I don't plan on following this series, but I am morbidly curious about that Stop That example of the Love Triangle Classifications. Someone got an actual name I can follow?

I like how "Is My Hobby Weird" is specifically referenced in this.

Copy90_90_zpscf246422
joined Sep 18, 2014

I don't plan on following this series, but I am morbidly curious about that Stop That example of the Love Triangle Classifications. Someone got an actual name I can follow?

Hayate no Gotoku.

Cv7t70_vyaagwe3
joined Nov 19, 2017

Danke

Tumblr_ok9qbbf9zt1vy8fcno2_250
joined Nov 13, 2018

The fact that they're trying so damn hard to make him like dudes (crossdressing or not) and make him feel bad for not liking them made me really uncomfortable, growing in a greatly homophobic environment reminded me of that bigotry, because people would always be like "But what if those girls are actually boys!? See? You're straight!" "Those butchy lesbians look like dudes, so you must like men afterall".

I can't help but feel like if the crossdressers were actually women crossdressing as dudes and the MC was a gay man who was attracted to one of them only for it to turn out to be a woman, who would constantly mock* him and remind him he fell in love with her and that he should feel bad for not romantically liking women in drag, it would be called really homophobic.

I REALLY hope that Ushiwaka realizes he actually likes dudes on his OWN terms, rather than the other characters constantly pushing him towards it and making him feel bad for not liking them romantically. It just feels bad, hopefully he realizes it on his own otherwise I'm gonna have to drop it if it turns out he really does end up accepting his feelings and liking him just because everyone is trying to manipulate him into it, like IE; he analyzes his own feelings and why he carries his pendant and getting his own conclusions, rather than it being on the lines of "oh shit, everyone is telling me that not liking men is wrong, so maybe something really is wrong with me?"
Just my opinion.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 2:23AM

Untitled172-1
joined Jan 4, 2017

It's back! Yay! I really love Ryuugasaki I don't know why. Hm - ×-)

Also that comment about training your voice to be high pitched made me curious. Can girls also do that to make their voice sound like male? Is there an age limit on when you can start? This manga is pushing me further and further to actually try cross dressing and idk what to feel ; ×;)

Copy90_90_zpscf246422
joined Sep 18, 2014

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/about_a_guy_whos_been_destroyed_from_his_first_love_being_a_pretty_girl_ch02#42

Does anyone know the rest?

I only know Subaru and Asakura (Nanashi no Asterism).

Download
joined Jun 4, 2015

Seeing Subaru doesn't feel quite right without his sister there.

Capturedsfdsss_x213
joined Mar 16, 2018

This is like the Crossdressing Cinematic Universe

joined Jul 26, 2016

Kobayashi's having a blast with this isn't she? lmao

joined Aug 11, 2014

Also that comment about training your voice to be high pitched made me curious. Can girls also do that to make their voice sound like male? Is there an age limit on when you can start? This manga is pushing me further and further to actually try cross dressing and idk what to feel ; ×;)

I've only had training for the other way around, so I don't know too much about it, but it's certainly possible. Like a lot of other things, it becomes harder to make big changes to your voice after you're about twenty-five or so, but it's still doable after that point, it'll just be a bit more difficult. The three big things to think about are your pitch, your resonance, and your tone. Changing your pitch is pretty similar to expanding your range as a singer: sing scales, going up and down (spending most of your time at the desired end of your range, obviously) and over time you can gradually become more comfortable producing lower or higher notes.

Resonance is about changing where your voice echoes in your body - to sound more masculine, you want to project your voice downwards, towards your throat and diaphragm, and to sound more feminine, you want to project your voice forwards and upwards, into your mouth and nose. It's hard to explain, and harder to consistently get right, but I think it makes the biggest difference in how people hear you, even more than your pitch.

By tone, I mean your manner of speech: men tend not to change their pitch too much when they talk, and accentuate words by changing how forcefully they say them, whereas women tend to modulate their pitch more widely and frequently. At least, that's what I was told - I think it's a bit iffy, and kinda plays to stereotypes, but if you're trying to sound like a man or a woman without drawing much attention to your voice, it's probably easier to sound like a stereotypical man or a stereotypical woman, than a man or a woman with a quirky voice. I guess.

Once you've put all that together, it's a matter of training your vocal muscles until they're flexible enough to make the sounds you want, and practicing talking with it until it's become second nature. You want to be careful not to overwork your voice too much, since you can easily hurt your throat if you try and force yourself to hit notes that are right at the edge of your range or beyond it, but as long as you take it easy, keep at it, and pay attention to how you sound, it's not particularly dangerous. The results vary from person to person, of course, depending on the kind of voice you're starting with, and I've simplified things a whole lot, but that's roughly what's involved.

Breakdanceanomicon
joined Jun 13, 2015

I don't plan on following this series, but I am morbidly curious about that Stop That example of the Love Triangle Classifications. Someone got an actual name I can follow?

I like how "Is My Hobby Weird" is specifically referenced in this.

This? Where was this referenced specifically here? Also what's the "Stop That" example of Love Triangle Classifications? Am I missing something here or are you posting in the wrong thread or what?

joined Jul 26, 2016

I don't plan on following this series, but I am morbidly curious about that Stop That example of the Love Triangle Classifications. Someone got an actual name I can follow?

I like how "Is My Hobby Weird" is specifically referenced in this.

This? Where was this referenced specifically here? Also what's the "Stop That" example of Love Triangle Classifications? Am I missing something here or are you posting in the wrong thread or what?

Previous page, bottom left:

Rx_5_50
joined May 3, 2016

I see this author has finally gotten some comfortable material to work with.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 8:28PM

Rx_5_50
joined May 3, 2016

Let’s see where this goes. The comments seem to be stuck on certain issues.

Rx_5_50
joined May 3, 2016

I never found funny the "you look and act like a perfect girl I'd totally date, but you're a guy so you're out of question" joke, doubly so when person in question is a actual trans woman, but it was played for laughs so many times, at this point it is just such boring cliche, I wish it died already.

I'm in agreement. The heteronormativity that inhibits this archetypal conflict is extremely stale.

"But I can't be with a ///guy///!!!!1"
Like yeah you could mate if you weren't such a fucking coward

On a side note it's pretty exhausting that these stories so rarely have any genuine concept of the trans experience. And even if we validate the cliche of characters rejecting the idea of romance with cisgendered crossdressers like their tendencies are just a deviant hobby, translations could stand to stop using "drag" as though it has the same connotation.

I find the word “coward,” in this situation, to be a bit much. Calling someone that wouldn’t help a real life situation and probably not here, either. You can help guide them to a solution that may make them happy, and hope they’ll do it if it’s beneficial to the issue they’re dealing with. However, insulting them would make them even more defensive. And it makes you look bad, as well.

--itou-chika-and-matsuoka-miu-ichigo-mashimaro-drawn-by-shinjiro--sample
joined Jan 1, 2014

Uzuki being straight is the big disappointment of the manga.

Capturedsfdsss_x213
joined Mar 16, 2018

I don't plan on following this series, but I am morbidly curious about that Stop That example of the Love Triangle Classifications. Someone got an actual name I can follow?

I like how "Is My Hobby Weird" is specifically referenced in this.

This? Where was this referenced specifically here? Also what's the "Stop That" example of Love Triangle Classifications? Am I missing something here or are you posting in the wrong thread or what?

Previous page, bottom left:

(https://i.ibb.co/ThVGDh4/Clipboard01.jpg)

Looking at that love triangle it is clear to me she's referencing her own work in bottom right panel

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 9:07AM by Nezchan

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