Forum › Ayaka is in Love with Hiroko! discussion

Dynasty%20icon
joined Feb 16, 2021

This idea that your love will win through sheer willpower is very toxic, because 99% of the time the thing that prevents your love from happening is the other person, and whether their reasons for saying no are good or not is irrelevant.

Ayaka is forcing Hiroko and whether it's for the best or not is irrelevant too, she should just stop.

I love Ayaka, but I think my love for her comes from romanticizing something that really shouldn't be.

Point here is that Hiroko is also desperately in love with Ayaka as well and has been for a while, and Ayaka is cutting through her self-sabotage and fears by being a charging bull. Hiroko is not that toxic as a potential girlfriend (her being a player is reflection of her yearning for a relationship she never dared to have), she's just destructive towards herself because of all that previous trauma. It's not "you'll learn to love me", or "forced sex to spark love", "I'll make you gay/straight" or any of those other truly deplorable tropes.

As for whether they could stay together, I think it is a completely moot point here, even if 10 year age gap relationships aren't the most stable. Ayaka wants to date Hiroko of today, she's not worried or concerned about few years down the road. Hiroko might be, but she's getting the better side of the deal with a cute and much younger girl literally throwing herself in her arms. Even if it ends at some point, at least she'd finally experienced a proper relationship with someone who wanted to be with her.

I also don't think Ayaka has as many false ideas about Hiroko anymore as she initially had, as she's had few bitter moments with her and made effort to learn about Hiroko and how wlw relationships are in reality through other people who are like her and have observed Hiroko through these years.

Nice, some proper character analysis.

DynastyS is a great place to check comments if you want to see some grandstanding and fragility - some of these people really think someones going to read this manga and think its going to negatively impact peoples understanding of a healthy relationship. Its a manga, of all the mangas to be picking apart, this is one of the most wholesome that exists. And, at the same time, their analysis of "toxicity" is usually so fucking surface-level its hilarious. But, thats the queer analysis for ya, helpful to no one, destroys its own allies

Weiwei
joined Oct 9, 2017

Everyone's loving Ayaka but I get the feeling that in real life she would end up in jail pretty fast.

You can love Ayaka, but don't be like Ayaka ;)

This idea that your love will win through sheer willpower is very toxic, because 99% of the time the thing that prevents your love from happening is the other person, and whether their reasons for saying no are good or not is irrelevant.

Ayaka is forcing Hiroko and whether it's for the best or not is irrelevant too, she should just stop.

I love Ayaka, but I think my love for her comes from romanticizing something that really shouldn't be.

Yeah irl she should've taken the no as a no and moved on. This is one of those cases where I think people would see her behavior way differently if she was a man, y'know

Just gonna point out she's also had Hiroko's friends encouraging and supporting her? She isn't acting in a vacuum of information here. Everybody around them knows HIroko is super into Ayaka. Ayaka has seen firsthand how Hiroko reacts to her. She's been told about Hiroko's trauma. She knows why Hiroko is trying to cut her loose and she knows her reasons are unfounded. She has good reasons to believe that Hiroko is actively running from her real feelings, she isn't just clinging to a delusion because she can't let go of a crush.

Yeah, if somebody says no, you should respect that. But there's nothing wrong with being honest about your own feelings, either. She didn't force herself on anybody, she confronted her honestly and directly. And she was right?

Do you guys honestly think she should have just let Hiroko continue to run from her feelings? Stick to shallow relationships? Hide from her trauma? Go back to hitting on random chicks at the bar?

The problem with this "I can fix her" and "she will be happier with me she loves me" is that sure, maybe you're right and it's in the best interest of everyone... But maybe you're wrong and the other outsider are too. (honnestly friends are usually the last person you should ask that kind of things) Ayaka does not read the manga she exists in. She has no way to know for sure it's the right thing to do. Even for us readers you could argue it's not 100% certain.

When someone says no, it means no. If you insist and harass and press on, you're being a harasser. It can be pretty damaging for the person you interact with. I've been both Hiroko and Ayaka and I can say this for sure. :) Sometimes you say no to someone you love, and yes, it means no.

Weiwei
joined Oct 9, 2017

This idea that your love will win through sheer willpower is very toxic, because 99% of the time the thing that prevents your love from happening is the other person, and whether their reasons for saying no are good or not is irrelevant.

Ayaka is forcing Hiroko and whether it's for the best or not is irrelevant too, she should just stop.

I love Ayaka, but I think my love for her comes from romanticizing something that really shouldn't be.

Point here is that Hiroko is also desperately in love with Ayaka as well and has been for a while, and Ayaka is cutting through her self-sabotage and fears by being a charging bull. Hiroko is not that toxic as a potential girlfriend (her being a player is reflection of her yearning for a relationship she never dared to have), she's just destructive towards herself because of all that previous trauma. It's not "you'll learn to love me", or "forced sex to spark love", "I'll make you gay/straight" or any of those other truly deplorable tropes.

As for whether they could stay together, I think it is a completely moot point here, even if 10 year age gap relationships aren't the most stable. Ayaka wants to date Hiroko of today, she's not worried or concerned about few years down the road. Hiroko might be, but she's getting the better side of the deal with a cute and much younger girl literally throwing herself in her arms. Even if it ends at some point, at least she'd finally experienced a proper relationship with someone who wanted to be with her.

I also don't think Ayaka has as many false ideas about Hiroko anymore as she initially had, as she's had few bitter moments with her and made effort to learn about Hiroko and how wlw relationships are in reality through other people who are like her and have observed Hiroko through these years.

Nice, some proper character analysis.

DynastyS is a great place to check comments if you want to see some grandstanding and fragility - some of these people really think someones going to read this manga and think its going to negatively impact peoples understanding of a healthy relationship. Its a manga, of all the mangas to be picking apart, this is one of the most wholesome that exists. And, at the same time, their analysis of "toxicity" is usually so fucking surface-level its hilarious. But, thats the queer analysis for ya, helpful to no one, destroys its own allies

Well, medias do impact our views on the world. Maybe you're not build in a way that stories shape you, but for a lot of people, it's like that. This manga affects me. It creates this idea in me that it's wholesome and positive to charge like a bull when someone is saying no to me and I'm sure they love me. I did it several times in the past because books and mangas gave me this false idea about romance. And I did hurt people because of that.

So maybe keep your petty remarks for you. :)

Tumblr_3d1efdc4f3fb1ee16acd2f13f08afe0c_1e0d545a_12802
joined Mar 8, 2014

I personally don't mind this development too much because Ayaka had a sort of outside information as you say but I would've liked it infinitely more if she had left Hiroko alone for a while and Hiroko had come to the conclusion that she wants to be with Ayaka by herself. It does feel a bit forced that Ayaka keeps charging and a bit one sided to be honest. And I'm not sure at what point Hiroko fell for Ayaka or why other than liking her cause she's cute.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Just gonna point out she's also had Hiroko's friends encouraging and supporting her? She isn't acting in a vacuum of information here. Everybody around them knows HIroko is super into Ayaka. Ayaka has seen firsthand how Hiroko reacts to her. She's been told about Hiroko's trauma. She knows why Hiroko is trying to cut her loose and she knows her reasons are unfounded. She has good reasons to believe that Hiroko is actively running from her real feelings, she isn't just clinging to a delusion because she can't let go of a crush.

Yeah, if somebody says no, you should respect that. But there's nothing wrong with being honest about your own feelings, either. She didn't force herself on anybody, she confronted her honestly and directly. And she was right?

Do you guys honestly think she should have just let Hiroko continue to run from her feelings? Stick to shallow relationships? Hide from her trauma? Go back to hitting on random chicks at the bar?

The problem with this "I can fix her" and "she will be happier with me she loves me" is that sure, maybe you're right and it's in the best interest of everyone... But maybe you're wrong and the other outsider are too. (honnestly friends are usually the last person you should ask that kind of things) Ayaka does not read the manga she exists in. She has no way to know for sure it's the right thing to do. Even for us readers you could argue it's not 100% certain.

When someone says no, it means no. If you insist and harass and press on, you're being a harasser. It can be pretty damaging for the person you interact with. I've been both Hiroko and Ayaka and I can say this for sure. :) Sometimes you say no to someone you love, and yes, it means no.

I don't think you have been Hiroko or Ayaka. I think you're projecting your experience onto them. But every person is different and every relationship is different, and trying to apply blanket rules that ignore context is silly. She may not "read the manga," but she saw the expression on Hiroko's face when she tried to break things off, and it was absolutely the most heart-on-her sleeve "I don't really want to do this" face that could possibly have been drawn. Kicked puppy territory. Ayaka has plenty of evidence to tell her what's really going on here. She knows the story about Chinatsu-Senpai from the bar patrons and Hiroko's co-workers. She knows about the promotion and she knows Hiroko is waffling on it despite being the perfect choice who everybody admires and looks up to.

What's more, Ayaka isn't actually demanding a relationship here. She's demanding that Hiroko be honest with her, which she wasn't. She was literally lying about her feelings. Ayaka knew she was lying about her feelings, because Hiroko is actually really visibly bad at it. She also was demanding that Hiroko stop underestimating her, and stop underestimating their coworkers, who, all evidence suggests, aren't the kind of homophobic dickbags that drove Chinatsu away.

And I think it's fairly unfair to dismiss this as "I can fix her". "I can fix her" is typically the siren call of somebody who is enduring an abusive relationship in hopes of turning it into something healthier, not a person who is earnestly trying to be there for a traumatized loved one. This is "I can help her". And not just "I can help her be with me." This wasn't just about Hiroko running from her feelings for Ayaka, it was about Hiroko running from everything, including that promotion. She was basically about to fall into the abyss. What happens after that? Depression, loneliness, stress, career stagnation...That's what steeled Ayaka's resolve in the first place.

In a better society, I'd just say Hiroko should go see a therapist, but Japan is actually pretty awful about mental healthcare, so an intervention by a concerned loved one is probably the best she could hope for.

Screenshot_20231219-103652~2
joined Sep 10, 2022

The problem with this "I can fix her" and "she will be happier with me she loves me" is that sure, maybe you're right and it's in the best interest of everyone... But maybe you're wrong and the other outsider are too. (honnestly friends are usually the last person you should ask that kind of things) Ayaka does not read the manga she exists in. She has no way to know for sure it's the right thing to do. Even for us readers you could argue it's not 100% certain.

When someone says no, it means no. If you insist and harass and press on, you're being a harasser. It can be pretty damaging for the person you interact with. I've been both Hiroko and Ayaka and I can say this for sure. :) Sometimes you say no to someone you love, and yes, it means no.

I don't think you have been Hiroko or Ayaka. I think you're projecting your experience onto them. But every person is different and every relationship is different, and trying to apply blanket rules that ignore context is silly. She may not "read the manga," but she saw the expression on Hiroko's face when she tried to break things off, and it was absolutely the most heart-on-her sleeve "I don't really want to do this" face that could possibly have been drawn. Kicked puppy territory. Ayaka has plenty of evidence to tell her what's really going on here. She knows the story about Chinatsu-Senpai from the bar patrons and Hiroko's co-workers. She knows about the promotion and she knows Hiroko is waffling on it despite being the perfect choice who everybody admires and looks up to.

What's more, Ayaka isn't actually demanding a relationship here. She's demanding that Hiroko be honest with her, which she wasn't. She was literally lying about her feelings. Ayaka knew she was lying about her feelings, because Hiroko is actually really visibly bad at it. She also was demanding that Hiroko stop underestimating her, and stop underestimating their coworkers, who, all evidence suggests, aren't the kind of homophobic dickbags that drove Chinatsu away.

And I think it's fairly unfair to dismiss this as "I can fix her". "I can fix her" is typically the siren call of somebody who is enduring an abusive relationship in hopes of turning it into something healthier, not a person who is earnestly trying to be there for a traumatized loved one. This is "I can help her". And not just "I can help her be with me." This wasn't just about Hiroko running from her feelings for Ayaka, it was about Hiroko running from everything, including that promotion. She was basically about to fall into the abyss. What happens after that? Depression, loneliness, stress, career stagnation...That's what steeled Ayaka's resolve in the first place.

In a better society, I'd just say Hiroko should go see a therapist, but Japan is actually pretty awful about mental healthcare, so an intervention by a concerned loved one is probably the best she could hope for.

Just want to cosign this. I appreciate your taking the time for responses like this, for sticking up for the nuances at play. There's more to say about it, especially this "I can fix her" thing. Completely agreed on that. There does seem to be a tendency to exaggerate (or overdramatize) character faults, here. "I can help her" is definitely the more apt phrase; it's the one nearly everyone who's close to Hiroko in this story has said in one way or another (most of them asking Ayaka to be the one to do it). Yuuya says it again this very chapter. But I think if you don't like Hiroko as a character it's probably easier to view "I can help her" as "I can fix her" since "to fix" focuses on some fault or issue with Hiroko, while "to help" is more sympathetic. Agreed that therapy would be great!

last edited at Aug 10, 2023 6:14AM

86690
joined Apr 28, 2019

its been 84 years... Letsss goooo lesbianssss!!!

7c3371fc-1218-42e3-9009-8520d7f626fa
joined Sep 15, 2020

Everyone's loving Ayaka but I get the feeling that in real life she would end up in jail pretty fast.

You can love Ayaka, but don't be like Ayaka ;)

This idea that your love will win through sheer willpower is very toxic, because 99% of the time the thing that prevents your love from happening is the other person, and whether their reasons for saying no are good or not is irrelevant.

Ayaka is forcing Hiroko and whether it's for the best or not is irrelevant too, she should just stop.

I love Ayaka, but I think my love for her comes from romanticizing something that really shouldn't be.

Yeah irl she should've taken the no as a no and moved on. This is one of those cases where I think people would see her behavior way differently if she was a man, y'know

Just gonna point out she's also had Hiroko's friends encouraging and supporting her? She isn't acting in a vacuum of information here. Everybody around them knows HIroko is super into Ayaka. Ayaka has seen firsthand how Hiroko reacts to her. She's been told about Hiroko's trauma. She knows why Hiroko is trying to cut her loose and she knows her reasons are unfounded. She has good reasons to believe that Hiroko is actively running from her real feelings, she isn't just clinging to a delusion because she can't let go of a crush.

Yeah, if somebody says no, you should respect that. But there's nothing wrong with being honest about your own feelings, either. She didn't force herself on anybody, she confronted her honestly and directly. And she was right?

Do you guys honestly think she should have just let Hiroko continue to run from her feelings? Stick to shallow relationships? Hide from her trauma? Go back to hitting on random chicks at the bar?

The problem with this "I can fix her" and "she will be happier with me she loves me" is that sure, maybe you're right and it's in the best interest of everyone... But maybe you're wrong and the other outsider are too. (honnestly friends are usually the last person you should ask that kind of things) Ayaka does not read the manga she exists in. She has no way to know for sure it's the right thing to do. Even for us readers you could argue it's not 100% certain.

You should probably re-evaluate what you consider as “I can fix her” because clearly it’s different from others. Also, Hiroko’s friends aren’t outsiders or the kind of friends that are just hyping up Ayaka even when they don’t know the other party’s feelings. Hell they weren’t even Ayaka’s friends to be begin with. They are Hiroko’s friends, they know about Hiroko’s true feelings and even why she’s keeping herself from pursuing it. That’s exactly why they’re supportive of Ayaka in the first place because they’ve already heard all the about Hiroko’s past and her own thoughts and feelings.

When someone says no, it means no. If you insist and harass and press on, you're being a harasser. It can be pretty damaging for the person you interact with. I've been both Hiroko and Ayaka and I can say this for sure. :) Sometimes you say no to someone you love, and yes, it means no.

A lot of people have been either Hiroko and/or Ayaka’s shoes. Saying YOU know for sure because you’ve been in a similar place still doesn’t guarantee your methods, ideas, or views are absolute, since there also other people who have gone through the same and still can disagree with you.

Ayaka wants a real answer for her confession, she doesn’t want an answer that’s because of the past, she wants Hiroko to reject or accept her based on the present. But most importantly, Ayaka isn’t just being persistent solely for her own sake here, She’s trying to convince Hiroko out of the glass room she’s built imagining her team and the people around her could turn on her or look at her different if they find out she’s gay. She has past experiences that are making hesitant for good reason, but it’s also made her blind to the fact with the change of times that she’s endured. It brought new people she’s welcomed and trained, and they are not the same as the people who could’ve scorned or judged her back then. Not everyone is those same old co-workers looking for weakness to kick her out to take her place or the old execs that are stuck in their ways. That’s what Ayaka wants Hiroko to realize through all of this, that things have changed even though she didn’t realize it, and that she’s also a big reason why things have changed in the first place.

last edited at Aug 10, 2023 8:06AM

4dcd5e922a6b20d034126d7ff75583f91490791092_large
joined Jan 18, 2016

ayakas a bad bitch stood her ground

Profile
joined Jul 22, 2014

I did go through something similar for quite a while and I didn't realize how much I hurt my friends and my partner with the words i've been saying to convey my feelings for several months now.

At some point my friends where asking a lot of questions and truly sit us down to talk. I made my partner and my friends cry with my words which i didn't expect. And only after my partner confessed she thinks I will break up with her (even though we've been together for 7 years and planning to marry ), did it dawn on me. My friend also just frankly saying that I'm being extremely pessimistic and unfair kinda did it too. It broke some kind of downward spiral i was on.

It also took a lot of pushing from me to get my partner to be honest and telling me her true uncomfortable worries. I was really pushy and by yuri commenters standards it would be called toxic and over the line for not backing down. it was the first time that i heard her say anything like that for a very long time and it reset my brain. I really needed her to be honest to me and I wasn't capable to settle down with anything less.

I genuinely couldn't realize that by putting myself down I put the people closest to me down as well. But also my partner needed to learn to be honest, that your partner deserves honesty even if its uncomfortable.

I feel like the manga wants to convey this kind of story. I dont know where it begins to be toxic but it took "not supporting my convictions" and "being pushy" to get to a better place. (also therapy would be really nice lol)

Untitled102_20231004232707
joined Mar 26, 2014

This is soooo stupid. I kinda hate it. Not even funny man. They're better AT fucked up shit. And that's just sad

last edited at Aug 16, 2023 3:25AM

Untitled102_20231004232707
joined Mar 26, 2014

Ya know what? This really could've been told in about 3 chapters. Even as a oneshot it would be more bearable. Goddamn if this isn't the stupidest most unreasonably simple yet convoluted shit that I've ever seen. And you could have completely taken out the chapter where she met Chinatsu-senpai. That was ridiculous! .... The lesbian bar coincidence was passable. But that BS was just a complete waste of time, paper, money, etc because it didn't add anything to the story other then including the old senpai in current events. Literally any other character could've said "Go for it." The bar lady said as much to Ayaka. And I'll stick around or maybe I won't just to tear it a new one cause I can't believe this is what we as lgbt+ get after years and years. Hell that souless kiss was just a knife to the heart. I thought this was supposed to be funny?! Is anyone actually laughing? I saw a my cat try and fail at jumping onto the coffee table and that shit was funnier than anything in here. Seeing Ayaka pine for so long in vain was painful (in a bad way) it was like super uncomfortable and same for Risa (but the Risa side was more understandable cause lol gurl been there before). My God, I never thought I'd say this but this would've been better if the characters dropped dead. Honestly, fuck all of them. Except bar lady. She's cool. And Yuuya, and Kumi too. Side characters for the win cause they're actually decent people. Not flawless, but decent.

Screenshot%202023-08-18%20at%2014-36-31%20dynasty%20reader%20%c2%bb%20virgins'%20empire%20ch136
joined Jun 13, 2023

It's fun to see that their relationship is still made up of Ayaka dragging Hiroko along, because there is no way anything is gonna get done in otherwise.

Capture
joined Aug 12, 2021

Alright this was a fun ride, they're finally together now and keeping it on their own idiosyncratic down-low, also great to see that the department they work at itself has grown even further now from originally being a pretty hostile workplace when Hiroko was starting out, to a fine place to work after Hiroko and the other two (whose names I don't remember) pulled it through almost becoming defunct which is also when Ayaka and Risa started, to what is now like probably a really attractive workplace to people coming in given how much effort they're now investing in teaching the new hires and getting them involved with HIroko as director and Ayaka and Risa as two of the more senior members.

Also BIG W for Risa, getting a hot girlfriend and moving on from Ayaka. Good for her good for her.

last edited at Aug 17, 2023 2:37PM

Dynasty%20icon
joined Feb 16, 2021

American brains above, don't even bother reading ^

One of the cutest yuri manga's of all time. I loved every second.

Thanks OP, thanks author, thanks team at DS.

last edited at Aug 17, 2023 2:46PM

Screenshot_20231219-103652~2
joined Sep 10, 2022

So happy about this ending. Hiroko is now taking the lead instead of Ayaka. She's home early and she's pinching her cheeks. She's cooking for her. Then that was a lovely embrace. What was great was that Hiroko was the one who surprised Ayaka by grabbing and kissing her (at work), when you'd think it would be the other way around. She's really continued to evolve with help from the people around her. Not to mention that she's promoted. Ayaka is a leader now. Their living together, super happy and in love. Risa is living her best life. Happy all around. It's hilarious that they're basically an open secret, even moreso after getting caught making out! Old Hiroko would never.

last edited at Aug 17, 2023 2:49PM

Dynasty%20icon
joined Feb 16, 2021

Alright this was a fun ride, they're finally together now and keeping it on their own idiosyncratic down-low, also great to see that the department they work at itself has grown even further now from originally being a pretty hostile workplace when Hiroko was starting out, to a fine place to work after Hiroko and the other two (whose names I don't remember) pulled it through almost becoming defunct which is also when Ayaka and Risa started, to what is now like probably a really attractive workplace to people coming in given how much effort they're now investing in teaching the new hires and getting them involved with HIroko as director and Ayaka and Risa as two of the more senior members.

Also BIG W for Risa, getting a hot girlfriend and moving on from Ayaka. Good for her good for her.

Agreeeed, manga was a whole ass W all around. Progress is steady. If anyone read this and got the idea that things are going to stay the same for Japanese society, the workplace they're at, or even just for Hiroko and Ayaka themselves, they completely lack critical thinking skills. Life is not utopian, relationships aren't perfect, and people are messy. Sal Jiang made a fantastic piece.

Glad to see someone else as excited by the conclusion with Risa, what a cute couple x.x

last edited at Aug 17, 2023 2:47PM

9286787ab50153acb27cd03b385edb3d949d719e0b569799723637ee189d1f4b_1-1
joined Aug 14, 2020

Aww I'll miss this series and its embodiment of gay panic that is Hiroko. Sal Jiang really knocked it out the park with this one.

Old%20man%20prof
joined Oct 25, 2022

Risa got her girlfriend! Happy for her, and also happy for almost everyone in this thread who was rooting for her, lol.

I think this series is terrific, and I thoroughly enjoyed it the whole way through.

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

Surely the most suitable ending for this. :D

joined Mar 4, 2017

It's a little sad she still hasn't come out even now. I was hoping they'd focus more on their relationship versus office politics, it's nice to see there living together.

Images
joined Apr 7, 2021

Hiroko is the most annoying character ever. I said what I said

Sena
joined Jun 27, 2017

Pretty random ride. Hard to tell how much was meant to be just for the lulz and what was supposed to be serious drama. Well, overall one of the manga I read.

Cs4_cover
joined Jul 13, 2015

She say it, she say it!
And know they look prettier after a romance

welease.wodger
joined Oct 2, 2021

Still prefer Sal Jiang's Black and White

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