Forum › Ayaka is in Love with Hiroko! discussion
I personally don't mind this development too much because Ayaka had a sort of outside information as you say but I would've liked it infinitely more if she had left Hiroko alone for a while and Hiroko had come to the conclusion that she wants to be with Ayaka by herself. It does feel a bit forced that Ayaka keeps charging and a bit one sided to be honest. And I'm not sure at what point Hiroko fell for Ayaka or why other than liking her cause she's cute.
Just gonna point out she's also had Hiroko's friends encouraging and supporting her? She isn't acting in a vacuum of information here. Everybody around them knows HIroko is super into Ayaka. Ayaka has seen firsthand how Hiroko reacts to her. She's been told about Hiroko's trauma. She knows why Hiroko is trying to cut her loose and she knows her reasons are unfounded. She has good reasons to believe that Hiroko is actively running from her real feelings, she isn't just clinging to a delusion because she can't let go of a crush.
Yeah, if somebody says no, you should respect that. But there's nothing wrong with being honest about your own feelings, either. She didn't force herself on anybody, she confronted her honestly and directly. And she was right?
Do you guys honestly think she should have just let Hiroko continue to run from her feelings? Stick to shallow relationships? Hide from her trauma? Go back to hitting on random chicks at the bar?
The problem with this "I can fix her" and "she will be happier with me she loves me" is that sure, maybe you're right and it's in the best interest of everyone... But maybe you're wrong and the other outsider are too. (honnestly friends are usually the last person you should ask that kind of things) Ayaka does not read the manga she exists in. She has no way to know for sure it's the right thing to do. Even for us readers you could argue it's not 100% certain.
When someone says no, it means no. If you insist and harass and press on, you're being a harasser. It can be pretty damaging for the person you interact with. I've been both Hiroko and Ayaka and I can say this for sure. :) Sometimes you say no to someone you love, and yes, it means no.
I don't think you have been Hiroko or Ayaka. I think you're projecting your experience onto them. But every person is different and every relationship is different, and trying to apply blanket rules that ignore context is silly. She may not "read the manga," but she saw the expression on Hiroko's face when she tried to break things off, and it was absolutely the most heart-on-her sleeve "I don't really want to do this" face that could possibly have been drawn. Kicked puppy territory. Ayaka has plenty of evidence to tell her what's really going on here. She knows the story about Chinatsu-Senpai from the bar patrons and Hiroko's co-workers. She knows about the promotion and she knows Hiroko is waffling on it despite being the perfect choice who everybody admires and looks up to.
What's more, Ayaka isn't actually demanding a relationship here. She's demanding that Hiroko be honest with her, which she wasn't. She was literally lying about her feelings. Ayaka knew she was lying about her feelings, because Hiroko is actually really visibly bad at it. She also was demanding that Hiroko stop underestimating her, and stop underestimating their coworkers, who, all evidence suggests, aren't the kind of homophobic dickbags that drove Chinatsu away.
And I think it's fairly unfair to dismiss this as "I can fix her". "I can fix her" is typically the siren call of somebody who is enduring an abusive relationship in hopes of turning it into something healthier, not a person who is earnestly trying to be there for a traumatized loved one. This is "I can help her". And not just "I can help her be with me." This wasn't just about Hiroko running from her feelings for Ayaka, it was about Hiroko running from everything, including that promotion. She was basically about to fall into the abyss. What happens after that? Depression, loneliness, stress, career stagnation...That's what steeled Ayaka's resolve in the first place.
In a better society, I'd just say Hiroko should go see a therapist, but Japan is actually pretty awful about mental healthcare, so an intervention by a concerned loved one is probably the best she could hope for.
The problem with this "I can fix her" and "she will be happier with me she loves me" is that sure, maybe you're right and it's in the best interest of everyone... But maybe you're wrong and the other outsider are too. (honnestly friends are usually the last person you should ask that kind of things) Ayaka does not read the manga she exists in. She has no way to know for sure it's the right thing to do. Even for us readers you could argue it's not 100% certain.
When someone says no, it means no. If you insist and harass and press on, you're being a harasser. It can be pretty damaging for the person you interact with. I've been both Hiroko and Ayaka and I can say this for sure. :) Sometimes you say no to someone you love, and yes, it means no.
I don't think you have been Hiroko or Ayaka. I think you're projecting your experience onto them. But every person is different and every relationship is different, and trying to apply blanket rules that ignore context is silly. She may not "read the manga," but she saw the expression on Hiroko's face when she tried to break things off, and it was absolutely the most heart-on-her sleeve "I don't really want to do this" face that could possibly have been drawn. Kicked puppy territory. Ayaka has plenty of evidence to tell her what's really going on here. She knows the story about Chinatsu-Senpai from the bar patrons and Hiroko's co-workers. She knows about the promotion and she knows Hiroko is waffling on it despite being the perfect choice who everybody admires and looks up to.
What's more, Ayaka isn't actually demanding a relationship here. She's demanding that Hiroko be honest with her, which she wasn't. She was literally lying about her feelings. Ayaka knew she was lying about her feelings, because Hiroko is actually really visibly bad at it. She also was demanding that Hiroko stop underestimating her, and stop underestimating their coworkers, who, all evidence suggests, aren't the kind of homophobic dickbags that drove Chinatsu away.
And I think it's fairly unfair to dismiss this as "I can fix her". "I can fix her" is typically the siren call of somebody who is enduring an abusive relationship in hopes of turning it into something healthier, not a person who is earnestly trying to be there for a traumatized loved one. This is "I can help her". And not just "I can help her be with me." This wasn't just about Hiroko running from her feelings for Ayaka, it was about Hiroko running from everything, including that promotion. She was basically about to fall into the abyss. What happens after that? Depression, loneliness, stress, career stagnation...That's what steeled Ayaka's resolve in the first place.
In a better society, I'd just say Hiroko should go see a therapist, but Japan is actually pretty awful about mental healthcare, so an intervention by a concerned loved one is probably the best she could hope for.
Just want to cosign this. I appreciate your taking the time for responses like this, for sticking up for the nuances at play. There's more to say about it, especially this "I can fix her" thing. Completely agreed on that. There does seem to be a tendency to exaggerate (or overdramatize) character faults, here. "I can help her" is definitely the more apt phrase; it's the one nearly everyone who's close to Hiroko in this story has said in one way or another (most of them asking Ayaka to be the one to do it). Yuuya says it again this very chapter. But I think if you don't like Hiroko as a character it's probably easier to view "I can help her" as "I can fix her" since "to fix" focuses on some fault or issue with Hiroko, while "to help" is more sympathetic. Agreed that therapy would be great!
last edited at Aug 10, 2023 6:14AM
its been 84 years... Letsss goooo lesbianssss!!!
ayakas a bad bitch stood her ground
I did go through something similar for quite a while and I didn't realize how much I hurt my friends and my partner with the words i've been saying to convey my feelings for several months now.
At some point my friends where asking a lot of questions and truly sit us down to talk. I made my partner and my friends cry with my words which i didn't expect. And only after my partner confessed she thinks I will break up with her (even though we've been together for 7 years and planning to marry ), did it dawn on me. My friend also just frankly saying that I'm being extremely pessimistic and unfair kinda did it too. It broke some kind of downward spiral i was on.
It also took a lot of pushing from me to get my partner to be honest and telling me her true uncomfortable worries. I was really pushy and by yuri commenters standards it would be called toxic and over the line for not backing down. it was the first time that i heard her say anything like that for a very long time and it reset my brain. I really needed her to be honest to me and I wasn't capable to settle down with anything less.
I genuinely couldn't realize that by putting myself down I put the people closest to me down as well. But also my partner needed to learn to be honest, that your partner deserves honesty even if its uncomfortable.
I feel like the manga wants to convey this kind of story. I dont know where it begins to be toxic but it took "not supporting my convictions" and "being pushy" to get to a better place. (also therapy would be really nice lol)
This is soooo stupid. I kinda hate it. Not even funny man. They're better AT fucked up shit. And that's just sad
last edited at Aug 16, 2023 3:25AM
Ya know what? This really could've been told in about 3 chapters. Even as a oneshot it would be more bearable. Goddamn if this isn't the stupidest most unreasonably simple yet convoluted shit that I've ever seen. And you could have completely taken out the chapter where she met Chinatsu-senpai. That was ridiculous! .... The lesbian bar coincidence was passable. But that BS was just a complete waste of time, paper, money, etc because it didn't add anything to the story other then including the old senpai in current events. Literally any other character could've said "Go for it." The bar lady said as much to Ayaka. And I'll stick around or maybe I won't just to tear it a new one cause I can't believe this is what we as lgbt+ get after years and years. Hell that souless kiss was just a knife to the heart. I thought this was supposed to be funny?! Is anyone actually laughing? I saw a my cat try and fail at jumping onto the coffee table and that shit was funnier than anything in here. Seeing Ayaka pine for so long in vain was painful (in a bad way) it was like super uncomfortable and same for Risa (but the Risa side was more understandable cause lol gurl been there before). My God, I never thought I'd say this but this would've been better if the characters dropped dead. Honestly, fuck all of them. Except bar lady. She's cool. And Yuuya, and Kumi too. Side characters for the win cause they're actually decent people. Not flawless, but decent.
It's fun to see that their relationship is still made up of Ayaka dragging Hiroko along, because there is no way anything is gonna get done in otherwise.
Alright this was a fun ride, they're finally together now and keeping it on their own idiosyncratic down-low, also great to see that the department they work at itself has grown even further now from originally being a pretty hostile workplace when Hiroko was starting out, to a fine place to work after Hiroko and the other two (whose names I don't remember) pulled it through almost becoming defunct which is also when Ayaka and Risa started, to what is now like probably a really attractive workplace to people coming in given how much effort they're now investing in teaching the new hires and getting them involved with HIroko as director and Ayaka and Risa as two of the more senior members.
Also BIG W for Risa, getting a hot girlfriend and moving on from Ayaka. Good for her good for her.
last edited at Aug 17, 2023 2:37PM
American brains above, don't even bother reading ^
One of the cutest yuri manga's of all time. I loved every second.
Thanks OP, thanks author, thanks team at DS.
last edited at Aug 17, 2023 2:46PM
So happy about this ending. Hiroko is now taking the lead instead of Ayaka. She's home early and she's pinching her cheeks. She's cooking for her. Then that was a lovely embrace. What was great was that Hiroko was the one who surprised Ayaka by grabbing and kissing her (at work), when you'd think it would be the other way around. She's really continued to evolve with help from the people around her. Not to mention that she's promoted. Ayaka is a leader now. Their living together, super happy and in love. Risa is living her best life. Happy all around. It's hilarious that they're basically an open secret, even moreso after getting caught making out! Old Hiroko would never.
last edited at Aug 17, 2023 2:49PM
Alright this was a fun ride, they're finally together now and keeping it on their own idiosyncratic down-low, also great to see that the department they work at itself has grown even further now from originally being a pretty hostile workplace when Hiroko was starting out, to a fine place to work after Hiroko and the other two (whose names I don't remember) pulled it through almost becoming defunct which is also when Ayaka and Risa started, to what is now like probably a really attractive workplace to people coming in given how much effort they're now investing in teaching the new hires and getting them involved with HIroko as director and Ayaka and Risa as two of the more senior members.
Also BIG W for Risa, getting a hot girlfriend and moving on from Ayaka. Good for her good for her.
Agreeeed, manga was a whole ass W all around. Progress is steady. If anyone read this and got the idea that things are going to stay the same for Japanese society, the workplace they're at, or even just for Hiroko and Ayaka themselves, they completely lack critical thinking skills. Life is not utopian, relationships aren't perfect, and people are messy. Sal Jiang made a fantastic piece.
Glad to see someone else as excited by the conclusion with Risa, what a cute couple x.x
last edited at Aug 17, 2023 2:47PM
Aww I'll miss this series and its embodiment of gay panic that is Hiroko. Sal Jiang really knocked it out the park with this one.
Risa got her girlfriend! Happy for her, and also happy for almost everyone in this thread who was rooting for her, lol.
I think this series is terrific, and I thoroughly enjoyed it the whole way through.
Surely the most suitable ending for this. :D
It's a little sad she still hasn't come out even now. I was hoping they'd focus more on their relationship versus office politics, it's nice to see there living together.
Pretty random ride. Hard to tell how much was meant to be just for the lulz and what was supposed to be serious drama. Well, overall one of the manga I read.
She say it, she say it!
And know they look prettier after a romance
Still prefer Sal Jiang's Black and White
This is one story that really needed a blazing hot sex scene to release all the stress and tension that was build up during all the shenanigans.
Noooooooo I need moaaaar especially the deets to their seggs scene also chapters of how risa and the other lesbian in the restaurant bar got together we need their side chapters as well T-T. Anyways really love this series. Looking forward to the author's future works!!
