Forum › So, Do You Want To Go Out, Or? discussion

Sandra2
joined Mar 22, 2013

"- So that made me realise I have no interest in men and I only wanted to bang with girls
+ Maybe was that him sucked?
- THAT'S NOT THE POINT"
Oh, shit, this hits near home... Why always if you have experience with men trying to be normal people say "maybe he wasn't the correct" like if someone of them could actually work instead of that heteronormativity suck...

Also I like the translation, in Spain mangas they also don't use honorifics and I like the accent.
And

As if it's easy to learn how to read Japanese; the average Japanese person needs to learn about TWO-TO-THREE THOUSAND kanji just for everyday use, with an additional few thousand more for occasional use.

And averague native person of whatever language knows more than 10k of words. Spanish has more than 80k. What's different about 力 = power and 人 = person? In the end they are words, just because the way they are writting is hard for adults doesn't mean that it's that hard to see that all languagues has words and it's a way to have them. Know 3k of words I think that it's pretty normal.

But the Kanji have different meaning regarding context and also a lot of different ways to pronounce them. You need not only to learn the kanji and the meaning but also the Onyomi and Kunyomi (those are "pronounciations" and there are usually several for both, don't even ask me what the difference is between KUN an ON and when to use what, I haven't grasped that yet). I wonder if that gets easier by time, but as a beginner I find it pretty damn hard.

last edited at Jun 8, 2019 5:14AM

Sandra2
joined Mar 22, 2013

man I can relate so much to both Saeko and Miwa. It is always shit when you feel obliged to do something, but then you grow dissatisfied. It's kind of the mother of all relationship-killers.

mei is waifu
Ds6osxcvsaabln5
joined Dec 13, 2017

Why do I come back every chapter like a masochist? I know they are not gonna end up together...

Icon%20(4)
joined Jan 20, 2014

And averague native person of whatever language knows more than 10k of words. Spanish has more than 80k. What's different about 力 = power and 人 = person? In the end they are words, just because the way they are writting is hard for adults doesn't mean that it's that hard to see that all languagues has words and it's a way to have them. Know 3k of words I think that it's pretty normal.

learning vocabulary and learning kanji are two very different things. i don't know a single language (not saying there aren't) other than chinese ofc and maybe egyptian and any spin off from that, that has a different character for practicaly every word in existence. so yes, harder. MOST langauges have a normal alphabet or some version of it that they use.

My point was that learning languagues at that level is pretty hard and a little bit more those, like japanesse, which doesn't have an alphabet (talking about kanjis, I know they have hiragana and katakana), but knowing 3k of words to normal talking it's pretty normal. In fact, they are so much kanjis which are formed by others kanjis, so if you know those first kanjis you'll get what that kanji is. Forst is 森林, tree is 木, in fact they have some things that holly shit... Woman is 女 and rape is 強姦... The second kanji is formed with 3 times the woman kanji and the first it's like strenght or something like that.

Melon: But the Kanji have different meaning regarding context and also a lot of different ways to pronounce them. You need not only to learn the kanji and the meaning but also the Onyomi and Kunyomi (those are "pronounciations" and there are usually several for both, don't even ask me what the difference is between KUN an ON and when to use what, I haven't grasped that yet). I wonder if that gets easier by time, but as a beginner I find it pretty damn hard.

I don't study japanesse but I have friends who do it and they say than yes, so keep going! ^^
But I have to say that having multiple meanings it's also pretty normal, isn't it? In spanish we have words that the context can made them opposites. I'm seriously asking.

last edited at Jun 8, 2019 8:13AM

TifalovesAerith
__aerith_gainsborough_and_tifa_lockhart_final_fantasy_and_final_fantasy_vii__1b3d5b3389d43da1956a0fa45627f6c0
joined May 7, 2017

F-A-B-U-L-O-U-S story, characters, development, can't praise this enough. Relatable when?

Saeko was so cute when she put herself in Miwa's shoes, that's what kinda of development and growing of her character already, but she's only human and of course she would screw up right away lol

Soo%20nice
joined May 10, 2013

Miwa deserve someone better!

AnimexObsession
Screenshot%20(107)
joined Dec 27, 2014

This manga can be almost uncomfortably relatable/realistic at times.

last edited at Jun 8, 2019 1:55PM

herenowforever
joined Feb 11, 2018

This manga can be almost uncomfortably relatable/realistic at times.

That's why it's awesome. I'd like to see few more like this, in fact.

There are some SK manhwa's that are sort of like this, but they tend to have more family drama or love triangles instead of just problems between the couple.

DivineAlexandra
Ihstarresi
joined Jun 22, 2018

Chapter 1-6:
nice nice it's going really good this might actually become a good relationship
Chapter 7:
fuuuu-

This manga can be almost uncomfortably relatable/realistic at times.

That's why it's awesome. I'd like to see few more like this, in fact.

There are some SK manhwa's that are sort of like this, but they tend to have more family drama or love triangles instead of just problems between the couple.

Absolutely agree with this, I much prefer issues like this than the constantly forced love triangles *cough*citrus

Utenaanthy01
joined Aug 4, 2018

F-A-B-U-L-O-U-S story, characters, development, can't praise this enough. Relatable when?

Saeko was so cute when she put herself in Miwa's shoes, that's what kinda of development and growing of her character already, but she's only human and of course she would screw up right away lol

Agree on all accounts. All the characters in this story are adorable! And yet they somehow manage to screw up their relationships like that...

Realistic and relatable are the words, all right.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

This sort of plot where there's a big dispute because the characters have different views on sex just annoys me. Especially when one of the characters is like Saeko. If she says she's ready, she's fucking ready! Don't second-guess her because of your own issues with irrational guilt. And now she's probably gonna cheat on her because she would feel bad about sleeping with her, or some stupid shit like that.

Except she clearly wasn't ready. She wasn't enjoying herself, she was pushing herself because, and she said it herself later, she wanted to make Saeko like her better. She wasn't doing it because she wanted it. And that is -exactly- why what Saeko did was 100% the right thing to do.

And that's part of what I love about this series, because people DO have different views on sex. and figuring out how to communicate and reconcile those is part of working out a relationship. It's realistic and relatable, IMPO.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

learning vocabulary and learning kanji are two very different things. i don't know a single language (not saying there aren't) other than chinese ofc and maybe egyptian and any spin off from that, that has a different character for practicaly every word in existence. so yes, harder. MOST langauges have a normal alphabet or some version of it that they use.

Agree. Now if it's just speaking then the difficulty should be the same, but to learn to read, memorizing unique characters for thousands of words is ridic ok

Not exactly.

Here's the thing about Kanji vs written words. It's easy to get intimidated thinking of Kanji as thousands of independent symbols, but each Kanji is a symbol assembled from radicals, and there are only around 200 of those. If you think of the Kanji as a word, and radicals as being similar to letters, it's a little less imposing. (200 is still a lot, but it's not as bad as thousands of distinct unique characters.)

But, I can hear you saying, "Letters carry phonetic information about the word, while radicals in kanji don't! Letters tell me how to pronounce the word!" Which is mostly true, but it's also true that while letters carry phonetic information and radicals don't, Radicals carry -meaning information- and letters don't.

If I tell you a word contains the letters s, k, l, and i, that might give you an idea of what it might sound like, but it doesn't tell you anything about the meaning. For example, 時 contains the radicals composed of the Kanji for sun/day, earth/ground, and measurement/division.(sun is on the left, earth is on the top right, measurement is on the bottom right) If you know this, you might have already been able to suss out that this is the kanji used to denote time, or hours.

The radicals hint at the meaning of the Kanji in a way that the letters in a word don't. This actually can make reading an unfamiliar kanji -easier- than reading an unfamiliar word.

I mean, none of this has any bearing on the original point (that it's obnoxious to suggest that reading in the original japanese is trivial, learning a language is always hard) But if you're interested in learning the language, it's something to keep in mind because it can help in learning.

last edited at Jun 9, 2019 4:34AM

Sandra2
joined Mar 22, 2013

And averague native person of whatever language knows more than 10k of words. Spanish has more than 80k. What's different about 力 = power and 人 = person? In the end they are words, just because the way they are writting is hard for adults doesn't mean that it's that hard to see that all languagues has words and it's a way to have them. Know 3k of words I think that it's pretty normal.

learning vocabulary and learning kanji are two very different things. i don't know a single language (not saying there aren't) other than chinese ofc and maybe egyptian and any spin off from that, that has a different character for practicaly every word in existence. so yes, harder. MOST langauges have a normal alphabet or some version of it that they use.

My point was that learning languagues at that level is pretty hard and a little bit more those, like japanesse, which doesn't have an alphabet (talking about kanjis, I know they have hiragana and katakana), but knowing 3k of words to normal talking it's pretty normal. In fact, they are so much kanjis which are formed by others kanjis, so if you know those first kanjis you'll get what that kanji is. Forst is 森林, tree is 木, in fact they have some things that holly shit... Woman is 女 and rape is 強姦... The second kanji is formed with 3 times the woman kanji and the first it's like strenght or something like that.

Melon: But the Kanji have different meaning regarding context and also a lot of different ways to pronounce them. You need not only to learn the kanji and the meaning but also the Onyomi and Kunyomi (those are "pronounciations" and there are usually several for both, don't even ask me what the difference is between KUN an ON and when to use what, I haven't grasped that yet). I wonder if that gets easier by time, but as a beginner I find it pretty damn hard.

I don't study japanesse but I have friends who do it and they say than yes, so keep going! ^^
But I have to say that having multiple meanings it's also pretty normal, isn't it? In spanish we have words that the context can made them opposites. I'm seriously asking.

Thanks^^ I'm really not sure. It's probably normal i some way. In German we have words where the meaning changes depending on the article used (die kiefer = pine / der kiefer = jaw). Maybe it is just that hard because it is an entirely different language system. sentence structure, grammar is all pretty unfamiliar.

Mint
joined Jun 5, 2015

MarqFJA87 posted:

Nothing wrong with that, this translation it's awesome, you want more Japanese-ish read the original ...

I despise the patronizing tone with that last part of the post. As if it's easy to learn how to read Japanese; the average Japanese person needs to learn about TWO-TO-THREE THOUSAND kanji just for everyday use, with an additional few thousand more for occasional use. Unlike native Japanese people, we do not have the benefit of having been learning the language from a very young age and over the course of a decade and a half.

Didn't feel like commenting about it, but saying "if you don't like TL, read it in original" is the worst way to defend translation. People read translations, because they can't read original, but they still expect to get the same experience as native readers. So telling them if they want "more Japanese-ish" they should read original is the same as telling them, "TL made a shitty job at conveying the feel of original work" (or they didn't try to do it in the first place, which is another whole topic). I understand some localization is unavoidable or sometimes even necessary, but the entire point of good translation is finding balance.

52722-l
joined Nov 8, 2017

Too relatable :(

schuyguy Uploader
Imura%20ei%20music%20concert%20face
Yuri Project
joined Jul 14, 2016

Didn't feel like commenting about it, but saying "if you don't like TL, read it in original" is the worst way to defend translation. People read translations, because they can't read original, but they still expect to get the same experience as native readers. So telling them if they want "more Japanese-ish" they should read original is the same as telling them, "TL made a shitty job at conveying the feel of original work" (or they didn't try to do it in the first place, which is another whole topic). I understand some localization is unavoidable or sometimes even necessary, but the entire point of good translation is finding balance.

Obnoxious as it is, "if you don't like it, go learn Japanese" is a pretty fair response to comments like "this is overly localized." Readers can and should demand accuracy, and translators should respond to legitimate criticism by fixing mistakes (in general, I think most of us do correct errors when they're pointed out). But saying something is "overly localized" is not all all constructive. It reveals nothing about the translation, only that the complainant doesn't know what localization means.

last edited at Jun 9, 2019 8:35PM

Mint
joined Jun 5, 2015

schuyguy posted:

Didn't feel like commenting about it, but saying "if you don't like TL, read it in original" is the worst way to defend translation. People read translations, because they can't read original, but they still expect to get the same experience as native readers. So telling them if they want "more Japanese-ish" they should read original is the same as telling them, "TL made a shitty job at conveying the feel of original work" (or they didn't try to do it in the first place, which is another whole topic). I understand some localization is unavoidable or sometimes even necessary, but the entire point of good translation is finding balance.

Obnoxious as it is, "if you don't like it, go learn Japanese" is a pretty fair response to comments like "this is overly localized." Readers can and should demand accuracy, and translators should respond to legitimate criticism by fixing mistakes (in general, I think most of us do correct errors when they're pointed out). But saying something is "overly localized" is not all all constructive. It reveals nothing about the translation, only that the complainant doesn't know what localization means.

Except I never complained it was "overly localized" or anything like that. Someone said it felt kinda western, so I offered a explanation why it could be so. I didn't comment whatever it's good or bad thing or whatever this specific translation done it well or not. I simply stated a fact as a explanation of someone's inquiry. So when another person comments to this "you want more Japanese-ish read the original", then it is obnoxious. Because they completely missed the point.

Just to illustrate it further, when I was saying "but saying "if you don't like TL, read it in original" is the worst way to defend translation." I meant translations in general, not just localization. For this person it clearly wasn't even about whatever it's overly localized or not. It could be anything, from it having rewrites or it just not being translated accurately. They just liked this specific translation, regardless of how faithful it's to source material, so they understandably were afraid of any drastic changes to it. Again, I never said they were wrong about feeling that way, just the way they chose to defend it, was the worst way possible.

I was talking about how translation is supposed to work in general and why some people can find issues with it, but I also specifically added "(or they didn't try to do it in the first place, which is another whole topic)" part, because I do not think Sexy Akiba Detectives are doing "a shitty job at conveying the feel of original work". I and many other people are not fans of localizations. That does not mean, they're inherently bad or worthless. Even added jokes and references can make work better (though then we go into discussion of whatever you translate author's work or want to make your own, which is yet another whole other topic). I might not be fan of it, but I do understand value of it and that some other people might like or even prefer it that way. That's why I actually think Akiba are doing great job on it. Regardless of faithfulness to source material and all that stuff, their translations are great to read and flow well. So at no point I'd ever tell them to stop doing it. If there's no other translation available, I'd probably go and really read original if I wanted to read it in the "more Japanese-ish" way. But again, not everyone is able to do it, which is kinda the whole point of this pointless conversation. If someone had brought up actual issues and critic of translation and actually point out every single localization they don't agree with, that person would still tell them to shut up and just go read original, if they don't like it, which not everyone can.

And last thing, I specifically chose word "heavily" and not anything else like "overly", because it does make a difference.

Thanks for wasting my time. Again, why I even bother writing anything, when most of the time people will completely miss my point and I'll have to waste thrice as much time explaining myself again and even then often they still don't get it or just never reply.

last edited at Jun 9, 2019 9:45PM

schuyguy Uploader
Imura%20ei%20music%20concert%20face
Yuri Project
joined Jul 14, 2016

Except I never complained it was "overly localized" or anything like that.

I never said you did. I just said that's a situation where "go read the original" could be a valid response. I don't really know how to reply to the rest of your comment, because I think it's aimed an imaginary person who said something I didn't say.

I just often see criticisms about something being "overly localized", and typically they just make no sense. It seems like the people complain like this just want super awkward, word-for-word "translations", no matter how inaccurate a representation of the original that ends up being. If that's what they want, then they should just used google translate to "read" the original.

last edited at Jun 9, 2019 10:18PM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Except I never complained it was "overly localized" or anything like that.

I never said you did. I just said that's a situation where "go read the original" could be a valid response. I don't really know how to reply to the rest of your comment, because I think it's aimed an imaginary person who said something I didn't say.

I just often see criticisms about something being "overly localized", and typically they just make no sense. It seems like the people complain like this just want super awkward, word-for-word "translations", no matter how inaccurate a representation of the original that ends up being. If that's what they want, then they should just used google translate to "read" the original.

(shrug) I think that's a little unfair. Translating something is a series of choices that craft the way the story is presented. You can present it as if there is no Japanese culture in the story (take out all the honorifics, rename rice balls as "donuts", Tokyo Tower is the Eiffel Tower, Kasumi is Misty, Hikaru is "Rick Hunter", etc. Most anime fans HAAAATE this kind of thing. That's one extreme. The other extreme is a word for word translation with no consideration for idioms or puns, with no explanations, sometimes leading to awkward or stilted, unnatural sounding dialogue.

Everybody has personal preferences on where the sweet spot is between those two things, and I think just like you can talk about whether you like someone's writing style, or art style, you can totally have an opinion about their translation style, and if you don't like someone's style, you're allowed to say that., and "go read the original" is just as dickish as "write/draw your own!"

AnimexObsession
Screenshot%20(107)
joined Dec 27, 2014

This manga can be almost uncomfortably relatable/realistic at times.

That's why it's awesome. I'd like to see few more like this, in fact.

There are some SK manhwa's that are sort of like this, but they tend to have more family drama or love triangles instead of just problems between the couple.

Absolutely agree with this, I much prefer issues like this than the constantly forced love triangles *cough*citrus

Yeah definitely, I meant it as a compliment since this is one of the first times I have cringed so hard in relating to it lol. Makes it hard to read at times cause I relate too much but that's what I love about it.

Rankarana Uploader
New%20profile
Sexy Akiba Detectives
joined Feb 8, 2014

i don't actually have a lot to add in here but i think Nevri's making some pretty cognisant and solid points. ultimately i am always a fan of localisation-focused TLs but there's definitely ups and downs to it, and honestly I actually adapt how 'far' I go with making it 'natural' - so to speak - depending from series to series. (for example, Still Sick I keep grammar patterns and flow probably closer to the JP, just because it fits the style of the series and its message more)

as a translator I do definitely get a little bitter at people with no actual knowledge of japanese past what they picked up in anime and jp 101 in uni saying 'uhhhh you RUINED THE MEANING' because they've likely never actually interacted with lived/spoken Japanese, either in media or IRL, but I think concerns over how well a work is conveyed in English is a natural thing to have! I take the 'it should read like it's your first language' stance, but.... it's not like all works written by English first-language people are slangy or accent-laden or etc.

point is, translation is wild.

Nodoyue_avatar1
joined Aug 7, 2017

Polioro posted:

And averague native person of whatever language knows more than 10k of words. Spanish has more than 80k. What's different about 力 = power and 人 = person? In the end they are words, just because the way they are writting is hard for adults doesn't mean that it's that hard to see that all languagues has words and it's a way to have them. Know 3k of words I think that it's pretty normal.

xxcindybeexx, khasak, Melon beat me to the punch, but I'll add my two cents nonetheless.

Any given English word can only be made out of 26 possible letters, which makes it easier to memorize... and many people still don't find it an easy language to learn.

A Japanese word consists of at least one out of several thousand ideograms, which range from something as simple as a single line to very complex characters that could be easily mistaken for a meaningless aggregation of shapes. Each kanji is composed of at least one "radical", of which there are currently 214 in usage.

One can easily draw a connection between 人 and the meaning of "person" since it resembles the shape of a person (minus their arms). Contrast with 麝, which means "musk deer"; besides the complex design, there's absolutely no obvious connection between the ideogram and its meaning, likely because (according to Wiktionary) it originated as a phono-semantic compound (i.e. chosen for sound values rather than actual meaning or shape resemblance).

TL;DR it is an objective fact that the Japanese language is far harder for someone completely unfamiliar with the kind of language they are to learn to the point of being able to decently speak, read and write in it than the English language is (someone who is proficient in speaking, reading and writing Chinese would have a far easier time picking up Japanese than someone who only knows, say, French).

schuyguy posted:

Obnoxious as it is, "if you don't like it, go learn Japanese" is a pretty fair response to comments like "this is overly localized."

No, it's not. It speaks only of condescending elitism on part of whoever says it.

But saying something is "overly localized" is not all all constructive. It reveals nothing about the translation, only that the complainant doesn't know what localization means.

Bullshit. Those are gross overgeneralizations and you know it.

Heavensrun posted:

Radicals carry -meaning information- and letters don't.

Not always. As I've pointed out, many kanji are associated with certain given meanings not because their radicals' "meanings" have any relevance, but because their sound values were deemed "appropiate".

Nevri posted:

Didn't feel like commenting about it, but saying "if you don't like TL, read it in original" is the worst way to defend translation. People read translations, because they can't read original, but they still expect to get the same experience as native readers. So telling them if they want "more Japanese-ish" they should read original is the same as telling them, "TL made a shitty job at conveying the feel of original work" (or they didn't try to do it in the first place, which is another whole topic). I understand some localization is unavoidable or sometimes even necessary, but the entire point of good translation is finding balance.

QFT. If Dynasty Scans ever makes a "Constitution for Translators", this needs to be enshrined in it.

last edited at Jun 12, 2019 10:36PM

Marion Diabolito
Dynsaty%20scans%20avatar%20from%20twgokhs
joined Jan 5, 2015

I think the end of the one-shot/pilot approaches! But that's the beginning of the real story, so that's actually good news.

Also, we are now in the 令和 era so I hope we experience beautiful harmony :)

Annotation%202020-07-02%20193122
joined Apr 19, 2018

I don't remember seeing titles in older chapters

And yikes!
I just remembered how uncomfortable it feels to be a close friend of a couple when they are having a fight/argument/or just not getting along for some reason
Can't really blame someone, or help
And you're just stuck there thinking - "How can I make them get along? How can I help?"

joined Mar 6, 2018

I'm too lazy to read the whole thing here, but I think Sexy Akiba Detectives do a great job with the translation. The characters each have a certain kind of character and that's enough for me.

Anyway, I like the way the story is going far better, since we're seeing more of the actual relationship - which gives me hope that this won't end with them being all casual about it! If they can either work it out together, they're far more developed than in the oneshot - or if they can't at least it won't feel as shallow and kinda depressing as in the oneshot

To reply you must either login or sign up.