poor risa

Poor Risa. Credit to her for taking her shot, but I guess Ayaka just wasn’t that into her.

I see, so, Hiroko was once in Ayaka's shoes. But what I don't get is that, she knows she isn'r as cruel as the Senpai she once pursued. So, why is she so afraid of reciprocating Ayaka's feelings?

Maybe her senpai wasn’t that cruel in the beginning, either? I imagine the circumstances will become more clear in future chapters.

So... the formula is making the readers angry?

Kind of. ^_^

But not willingly. Let me give you an analogy. You know the Brontë sisters, Charlotte, Emily and Anne? This a short comic about them:

When it comes to romantic literature for women by women, one of the oldest plot devices in the book is making the heroine's love interest an extremely problematic person: a violent man, an alcoholic, an outcast, a social climber who won't marry the heroine because she's poor, an emotionally-scarred wretch, etc. etc. The story then tells us how the heroine, through great pain and effort, redeems this person's wrongs with the power of her love and wins herself a happy romantic end. Emily and Charlotte Brontë were very fond of this sort of problematic characters, while Anne was NOT; that's why she and her sisters bicker in the comic, as their reactions to the men they see (who by coincidence happen to be the mcs of some novels by Charlotte and Emily) are completely different.

This manga follows that old and tested plot, giving the heroine Ayaka a majorly problematic love interest in Hiroko. Normally, all the readers should react like Charlotte and Emily Brontë would... that is, they should be rooting for Ayaka to break Hiroko's defenses, make her see the errors of her ways, and finally win her heart! Trouble is, 90% of the readers are reacting like Anne would... that is, they think Hiroko is a slimeball and Ayaka needs to find herself a better lover. Ooops. This is not what Sal Jiang had in mind when she created Hiroko.

In the past, there have been many series with similar premises that made the readers in Dynasty forum react the way the author expected. This manga failed to accomplish that. I won't attempt to explain why. Let's just say that Hiroko doesn't have what it takes to charm the readers (whatever this elusive quality may be) and leave it at that.

In the past, there have been many series with similar premises that made the readers in Dynasty forum react the way the author expected. This manga failed to accomplish that. I won't attempt to explain why. Let's just say that Hiroko doesn't have what it takes to charm the readers (whatever this elusive quality may be) and leave it at that.

I think in the context of Dynasty there’s also an additional dynamic at work: The Other One. That is, it’s not just that the protagonist is attracted to an unsuitable partner, but that there’s another (often more overtly or more consciously lesbian) character who’s available but is not the Destined One.

Some readers stay committed to what is obviously an off-brand ship, and often get more and more frustrated when it doesn’t sail. A milder version is when readers plead for the third character to “at least get a girlfriend.” I’d say it’s pretty rare for that character to be present in a yuri series without getting at least a shipper or two or some “best girl” comments.

One of the more clever moves in YagaKimi was spinning-off fan-favorite Sayaka into her own LN series even before the main series was resolved. She gets her girlfriend.

Damn. Had to drink some water to read the last chapter(14) fr, poor Risa like holy SHIT, she went dry to get that cake and Ayaka's reaction surely was like a stomach punch, she deservers a "Biggest fucking balls" trophy.

This manga follows that old and tested plot, giving the heroine Ayaka a majorly problematic love interest in Hiroko. Normally, all the readers should react like Charlotte and Emily Brontë would[...]Trouble is, 90% of the readers are reacting like Anne would... that is, they think Hiroko is a slimeball and Ayaka needs to find herself a better lover. Ooops. This is not what Sal Jiang had in mind when she created Hiroko.

I understand and kind of agree honestly, though I do have to admit I like how Hiroko is even more problematic than other love interests, so much so to the point of being genuinely quite unlikable. I mean, people are complicated... and so are their reasons to react and live the way they do, so to see a character like her who apparently has more flaws than fortes, makes me interested to understand her even more = )
Keyword: Me

Nope, fuck both of you. Risa is best girl

Funny that you said literalist. I remember the episode and I remember his exact words were: "She can literally have any man she wants." Literally, he said. Maybe the poor guy was just trying to reinforce his statement and didn't know what "literally" actually means, but that's what he wrote.

That or slavery is legal again.

FWIW I think nitpicking about the meaning of "literally" sounds like pedantry. Lots of people use that word solely for emphasis. It's not a problem, since it's fairly simple to figure out which usage is being implied in each context. People should literally chill out about that.

That was painful to read, and it was extremely rushed in my opinion so L from Sal Jiang, I don't think they handled it correctly

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 10:24PM

I feel like the characters in this series have realistic motivations and hang ups.

Citation needed

"I'm her boss and she still has her whole life ahead of her. I'm sure she'll find someone better than a woman 13 years her senior."

You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

If this is facetious, lmao excellent. If you were serious here... Moving the goalposts much?

Damn everyone who left an Ayaka x Risa comment must be reeling right now lol

This was definitely done in a "let's do it to say we did it" type way rather than giving it much effort. I've been cheering for Risa but pushing Ayaka to date her was a weird move (even if she said she wouldn't play nice, doesn't mean she has to go 0 to 100).

I talked about it in an earlier comment about Risa but she seemed a bit desperate. She knew how Ayaka felt and this uneasiness seemed to be building up behind the scenes throughout the last few chapters. She was growing really envious and starting to escalate, finally culminating in her outburst with Hiroko. So I agree it was aggressive but I didn't see it as sudden (with earlier comments as evidence of that); rather it felt to me like she was at her last straw, knew Ayaka's feelings, and wanted to snatch a chance with her. It's sad that it doesn't work out for her though.

Yeah, that was kinda my vibe too. I don't wanna be too harsh on the Risa supporters, (I have similar feelings on Harumin from Citrus being a better option than Mei and will always stand by that) but I honestly think in this case she's kinda proving to not be great (romantically) for Ayaka either. I understand the desperation and that there's no real malice on her part, but like, coming in so hot basically right after a heartbreak would feel like a really scummy move in even just slightly different circumstances.

As it is, I could see, like, as soon as she suggested dating, that she was royally shooting herself in the foot by not giving Ayaka the time to move on first. The timeskip from that right to their own breakup was a bit unexpected, thought that would last another chapter or so, but honestly I don't mind it being paced like this since it isn't wasting our time on what was very clearly a doomed endeavor. If Risa had given her time and space before suggesting a relationship, maybe it could have worked out better, but this approach and the inevitable outcome thereof just makes sense to me given her characterization thus far.

In general, I feel like there's some sort of weird values dissonance at play here between me and most of the commenters, because I was made a little uncomfortable by Risa's level of aggression, and if I'm being perfectly honest, Ayaka's own forcefulness towards Hiroko during some of the earlier chapters, while being much more sympathetic to Hiroko's denial, deflections, and now her turning down. She very obviously needs to grow and become more comfortable with who she is in order to be able to treat Ayaka right, and she recognizes that, but I still get her a lot more than the pushiness (justified/necessary or not) of the other two.

last edited at Jun 18, 2023 3:56AM

Oh man, I'd love to talk with you about your Harumin takes but don't want to get off topic more!

If Risa had given her time and space before suggesting a relationship, maybe it could have worked out better, but this outcome just makes sense to me given her characterization thus far.

Yeah, I can imagine her mental state though. She lost Ayaka's affection to Hiroko, now they're "broken up" and here's Risa's chance. But what if she waits too long and Ayaka falls for someone else? Back to unrequited love again? She must have been under a lot of romantic stress. Then, they're finally dating and Risa must have noticed Ayaka's relative apathy and lack of closeness. That's just difficult stuff and she couldn't have been in the best state when she went for the aggressive kiss. I don't blame her either. I don't blame any of the 3 really.

Also you're thoughts about the 3 women and how we all view them are interesting, as well. Hiroko's issues feel the most real (to me, and maybe you as well?). Maybe that's part of why you might find it easier to relate to her problems? There's more that could be said about your ideas. Appreciated.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 10:54PM

FWIW I think nitpicking about the meaning of "literally" sounds like pedantry.

Learning English is pedantic. The way the world is going better learn Russian or Chinese.

Lots of people use that word solely for emphasis.

Lots of people have poor communication skills.

It's not a problem, since it's fairly simple to figure out which usage is being implied in each context.

OR people who speak gibberish could learn to speak correct English so that everyone else won't have to waste valuable time trying to figure out from the context what the devil they mean.

One or the other, I guess.

People should literally chill out about that.

People like the moderators?

I might be old school but (until the day they invent telepathy) I think it's worth it learning to speak and write a language.

Mod Note

Folks, come on. We've been at this for four pages. All these anecdotes and opinions on the English language have excruciatingly little to do with either the manga or the actual discussion taking place. If you don't intend to post about the manga or engage with other users about this manga, Ayaka is in Love with Hiroko!, please refrain from posting.

So... the formula is making the readers angry?

Kind of. ^_^

But not willingly. Let me give you an analogy. You know the Brontë sisters, Charlotte, Emily and Anne? This a short comic about them:

I have read The Tenant of Wildfell Hall and I think it's one of my favorite books and the reason it works is because the problematic character escalates so much in his behavior that he is basically unredeemable and also because the story frames that whole relationship as a flashback and in fact it starts with the unproblematic love interest You could also argue that the female character is a bit like Hiroko in this case because she hides that she is actually married and left her husband because she couldn't divorce him and rejects the love interest for this reason even though she likes him.

"One rarely falls in love without being as much attracted to what is interestingly wrong with someone as what is objectively healthy." The Course of Love, Alain de Botton.
Hiroko is indeed problematic but she isn't a toxic person who wants to manipulate Ayaka. She rejects Ayaka because she knows this. Now I don't exactly agree with the formula of a girl liking a broken person and trying to fix them no matter what. It doesn't give a great message and that's not what anyone should be doing. That's why I hope to see Ayaka work on herself in a way and remain friendly with Hiroko without pursuing her anymore. These tropes of fixing the broken person or chasing the girl till she says yes are very old and kinda ridiculous since they are completely out of touch with reality. Hiroko needs to be ready and make a move. She will probably give mixed signals and it won't be great either but I don't think we read stories to find a moral ideal. If there is one it can only be revealed at the end after the characters stumble many times throughout the journey.

... is it me or it feels rushed?

this definitely felt rushed ngl

Let me give you an analogy. You know the Brontë sisters, Charlotte, Emily and Anne? This a short comic about them:

When it comes to romantic literature for women by women, one of the oldest plot devices in the book is making the heroine's love interest an extremely problematic person: a violent man, an alcoholic, an outcast, a social climber who won't marry the heroine because she's poor, an emotionally-scarred wretch, etc. etc. The story then tells us how the heroine, through great pain and effort, redeems this person's wrongs with the power of her love and wins herself a happy romantic end. Emily and Charlotte Brontë were very fond of this sort of problematic characters, while Anne was NOT; that's why she and her sisters bicker in the comic, as their reactions to the men they see (who by coincidence happen to be the mcs of some novels by Charlotte and Emily) are completely different.

This manga follows that old and tested plot, giving the heroine Ayaka a majorly problematic love interest in Hiroko. Normally, all the readers should react like Charlotte and Emily Brontë would... that is, they should be rooting for Ayaka to break Hiroko's defenses, make her see the errors of her ways, and finally win her heart! Trouble is, 90% of the readers are reacting like Anne would... that is, they think Hiroko is a slimeball and Ayaka needs to find herself a better lover. Ooops. This is not what Sal Jiang had in mind when she created Hiroko.

In the past, there have been many series with similar premises that made the readers in Dynasty forum react the way the author expected. This manga failed to accomplish that. I won't attempt to explain why. Let's just say that Hiroko doesn't have what it takes to charm the readers (whatever this elusive quality may be) and leave it at that.

You know what? Suddenly my mind is drifting back to that time when you wrote several pieces about the 19th century's dime novels for women—and how their narratives had so much in common with A Room For Two. That was, oh, like two years ago? Haha, those were the days.

Great post as usual, Fairypixie24!! ❤ I wish you'd post more often...

Here it is, the rite of passage for almost every Yuri

Drama

... is it me or it feels rushed?

A little bit, and it definitely doesn’t help that the story leading up to this point was fairly slow-paced. I’m not sure if it was because the author had too much planned to dedicate more time to Ayaka and Risa dating (which would be weird, since we’re apparently only at around the midway point), or if they were just worried that readers would start tho think that the story was going to shift to AyakaxRisa if they spent more than a chapter on that plot point. Personally, I would have preferred if we had another chapter or two to drive home the awkwardness of the relationship and give Hiroko a little more time to regret her poor decision, but I don’t consider this to be particularly damning for the story. It’ll depend on how the rest of the story plays out.

I have read The Tenant of Wildfell Hall and I think it's one of my favorite books

I see you're a woman of culture as well. (ღˇ◡ˇ)~♥ It's one of my all-time favorites, too!

and the reason it works is because the problematic character escalates so much in his behavior that he is basically unredeemable and also because the story frames that whole relationship as a flashback and in fact it starts with the unproblematic love interest You could also argue that the female character is a bit like Hiroko in this case because she hides that she is actually married and left her husband because she couldn't divorce him and rejects the love interest for this reason even though she likes him.

Good analysis. Anne Brontë's female characters never were all about love and romance, they weren't unidimensional beings. Helen had other priorities than love. Agnes Grey also was first and foremost about her work.

"One rarely falls in love without being as much attracted to what is interestingly wrong with someone as what is objectively healthy." The Course of Love, Alain de Botton.
Hiroko is indeed problematic but she isn't a toxic person who wants to manipulate Ayaka. She rejects Ayaka because she knows this.

There's one difference between Hiroko and the male leads in novels by Charlotte or Emily. Their typical toxic lead is problematic because he has one big problem that ruins everything for him, his life and the lives of his loved ones. Hiroko, on the other hand, has a number of small problems that pile up and weight down on her good judgment. Some of those have only been hinted at for now and we don't know the details—except that they have been messing up her love life for years. I think this is why we can say she's not really a toxic person... she's more like a lesbian disaster, haha.

Now I don't exactly agree with the formula of a girl liking a broken person and trying to fix them no matter what. It doesn't give a great message and that's not what anyone should be doing. That's why I hope to see Ayaka work on herself in a way and remain friendly with Hiroko without pursuing her anymore. These tropes of fixing the broken person or chasing the girl till she says yes are very old and kinda ridiculous since they are completely out of touch with reality.

Mhhm, yeah. Really old tropes, with big historical roots, and somehow really popular today as well, hahaha. In those old stories, the violent or alcoholic douchebag just needs to meet the right woman who will heal his inner scars with love, understanding and devotion. It doesn't work like that irl, which somehow doesn't detriment the everlasting popularity of the trope.

It would be nice if Ayaka could make a clear-cut choice here: stop her romantic advances and become a good friend of Hiroko's. Another chance may come up in the future, after they begin to be closer and she gets to know her better. I wouldn't mind such a development at all.

last edited at Jun 18, 2023 5:10AM

THIS BINCH DONE OUR GIRL WRONG. Time for drama. As always good stuff. Still like that one office romance by that chinese author more (not anyones fault I'm biased).

Jesus.

Risa's expression in that last panel is fucking heartbreaking.

Still like that one office romance by that chinese author more

Assuming you mean My Dear Nemesis, of course. Same person wrote Green Tea Bitch, so naturally it's good.

last edited at Jun 18, 2023 4:06AM

A few pages back, someone compared this series to Liberty, and Hiroko to Liz. I, having not read Liberty, decided to go check it ouf, if it was something interesting like this where one of the leads was a complicated character, unilaterally disliked by the audience like Hiroko...

And to whoever made that comparison, I would urge you to reread Liberty yourself, because dear goodness are they two very, very different animals. I guess an argument could be made that they share a lack of communication skills and that hurting the other lead girl, but at least from what I've read so far in Liberty, they diverge in most other regards. Hiroko's trying to keep herself safe, and doesn't realize how badly this affects Ayaka, and once she realizes what's going on apologizes and is trying to be considerate of both their needs. Liz is overreactionary and abusive, and in regards to how her behavior may affect Maki, doesn't seem to particularly care. The narrative (by way of our lesbian bar greek chorus) is still critical of Hiroko's flaws, while (again at least as far as I've read) with Liz is uh, decidedly not.

Oh man, I'd love to talk with you about your Harumin takes but don't want to get off topic more!

I guess to keep it brief, (since I'm already a bit off-topic here) she seemed respectful of and on the same wavelength with Yuzu in a way Mei and Matsuri were not. And I do remember the bad vibes Mei initially gave me subsiding after a while, but it never really managed to sell me on her having any chemistry with Yuzu. I'm not even opposed to the incest angle, it was just the actual writing of their dynamic that turned me off and never managed to win me back. So yeah, I'm with Nene to this day XD

Anyway, back on topic...

If Risa had given her time and space before suggesting a relationship, maybe it could have worked out better, but this outcome just makes sense to me given her characterization thus far.

Yeah, I can imagine her mental state though. She lost Ayaka's affection to Hiroko, now they're "broken up" and here's Risa's chance. But what if she waits too long and Ayaka falls for someone else? Back to unrequited love again? She must have been under a lot of romantic stress. Then, they're finally dating and Risa must have noticed Ayaka's relative apathy and lack of closeness. That's just difficult stuff and she couldn't have been in the best state when she went for the aggressive kiss. I don't blame her either. I don't blame any of the 3 really.

Mmmm, yeah, when you put it that way, that does make sense. When I first read this chapter, Ayaka's continued listlessness during the date scenes kinda escaped my notice, (since I thought it was like, Risa's imaginings during her confessing, not actual events across a minor timeskip until a page or two later) so the aggressive face felt kinda more relevant to Risa's own fed-up vibes these past few chapters than in response to that. But going back and looking again, it does come across a bit better now.

I just hope all three of them wind up happy, whatever the outcome. Perhaps we'll get to see more of CEO lady?

Also you're thoughts about the 3 women and how we all view them are interesting, as well. Hiroko's issues feel the most real (to me, and maybe you as well?). Maybe that's part of why you might find it easier to relate to her problems? There's more that could be said about your ideas. Appreciated.

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. The worries about being outed, if Ayaka is just a straight girl who gets all touchy-feely without meaning it, (having been on the receiving end of that one myself, I could relate to that one) and the age gap and chain-of-command ranking all feel like very reasonable concerns to have.

Though I will admit that like, my perception of the other two may be a bit clouded by personal hangups. I tend to be pretty sensitive to like, romantic pushiness for some reason, and there's a hair-thin line between "pushy but acceptable" and "too much, bad vibes," the exact criteria of which is kind of a mystery even to me. Like I said, Ayaka kinda hit up against this line in some of the earlier chapters, but I think the context of Hiroko's pure density helped kinda make it come off better than it otherwise might have; and for some reason Toukou's sketchier moments in Bloom Into You (mainly the sports festival thing) that some others objected to, also didn't really come across as badly to me? But then there's the aforementioned example of Mei and Matsuri who definitely set off some alarm bells. Plus probably a dozen other manga on here, where I've commented on one of the leads giving me bad vibes by being too forward, while most other readers have been perfectly fine with them? (And back on the flipside, Kaede from Assault Lily was a surprise to me, for not giving me any bad vibes despite being very forward with the lead Riri.) So idk.

last edited at Jun 18, 2023 10:42PM

The Risa thing doesn't feel rushed to me at all, I'm not sure what could be gained from expanding on that a bit :P It's been clear so far that Risa is just a secondary character (which let's be honest, we know very little about apart from the fact she likes Ayaka) ... and not gonna lie, the idea of trying to wear someone down until that someone loves you back doesn't sit right with me at all, and I thought it makes sense to show in one chapter that it doesn't end well either.

...also, that montage on this page reminded me of this very old XKCD comic (it doesn't really work as a parallel for obvious reasons, you don't have to tell me that :P I just thought it's kinda funny).

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/ayaka_is_in_love_with_hiroko_ch14#6

last edited at Jun 18, 2023 5:15AM

...also, that montage on this page reminded me of this very old XKCD comic (it doesn't really work as a parallel for obvious reasons, you don't have to tell me that :P I just thought it's kinda funny).

Yeah there's a huge difference between being friendly* with someone you like if there is some flirting going on and they know you like them but the person is emotionally unavailable and trying to be someone's bestie while pinning for them the whole time. I mean Risa comes off as immature here and Ayaka as well should have backed off a bit and not gone crying to her with Hiroko problems. The only thing I can say is that Risa realized she liked Ayaka after a whole year so it's not like she was secretly pinning for her so that's a plus. But I don't know in what world it makes sense to go after someone like Ayaka who is head over heels for someone else.

Mmmm, yeah, when you put it that way, that does make sense. When I first read this chapter, Ayaka's continued listlessness during the date scenes kinda escaped my notice, (since I thought it was like, Risa's imaginings during her confessing, not actual events across a minor timeskip until a page or two later) so the aggressive face felt kinda more relevant to Risa's own fed-up vibes these past few chapters than in response to that. But going back and looking again, it does come across a bit better now....[Cutting off the rest for space]

Oh detailed response. Cool. Harumin all the way! That's all I'll say.

Lol. But yeah, if you haven't already, check Ayaka's eyes in those scenes (also check that Risa was the only one ever blushing--bless her). The awkwardness is a bit of comedy. Ayaka is completely shell shocked that they're even doing this. She must have been so confused. When a good friend confesses, it can be so weird if you're not attracted. It can feel like "hey, they're a great person, shouldn't I try it out? Should I? Why don't I like them? Why does this feel weird?" But the reality is it doesn't work that way. We can't turn a switch, we don't have as much control as we think we do over our feelings. Maybe in time they could, but Risa was already so upfront the entire manga and still not even a thought from Ayaka, so it's right for her.

It's tough to move on but the upside is Risa tried it. She can have closure. She has no regrets. That's the other purpose here, I think. She's not the silent unrequited love trope, she stood up and made it happen (just like Ayaka has been doing). Now she knows it doesn't work and can move on head held high. She's not Sayaka. I agree about your Liz/Liberty comments but that's another divergence.

last edited at Jun 18, 2023 6:52AM