Yeah. I think they will in the future, just initial reactions are gonna be bitter.

Yeah, we're just too stupid to know our own minds. But your wisdom will surely rub off on us peons sooner or later.

So what this section of the story is showing is how to move on. If cheating happens in a relationship, if there is love present then both parties will work to move past that.

See, the thing is, for many of us what this section of the story shows is exactly how not to move on. That is, do not apologize. Hurt the person you wounded some more. Make them ask for you back anyway because they love you so much they'll humiliate themselves while thinking "My pride is nothing more than dust" just to have you. Criticize them personally and nitpick their choice of a date spot. Tell them they're weak. Give them no indication that you'll be any better in the future.
In general, rather than closure or restitution, leave the person you "love" with wounds gaping wider than before you started to "move on".
If there is love present . . . that's the question. Sachi shows none. Love, heck--she doesn't even show any sympathy, or caring, or anything resembling empathy at all. I'd treat the merest acquaintance better than she's treating someone she's in an intimate relationship with. Ruki shows love, but that just seems to make her the most convenient person available for Sachi to dominate with her newfound "strength".

last edited at Feb 22, 2015 10:20PM

Yeah. I think they will in the future, just initial reactions are gonna be bitter.

Yeah, we're just too stupid to know our own minds. But your wisdom will surely rub off on us peons sooner or later.

I find it amusing you say this immediately after saying how bad it was to diss an actual person rather than a character.

I'm kind of amazed at how Shuinta managed to write a NTR story without actually having NTR.

Frankly, I'm incredibly dissapointed at how weak Ruki is. The whole story was pretty much seeing her identity and ego being broken down little a little until she became nothing more than a shadow of herself. She went from a strong and well meaning woman into someone that is defined by her relationships.

She got Sachan on the end, but getting a lover by saying "I don't care about anything as long I'm with you" is never worth it. After all, the most basic rule on relationships is "you can't love anyone if you don't love yourself first".

All in all, this was just a depressing story fron beginning to end.

Yo fuck this manga.... Imma still read it tho. Imma still read it

Yeah. I think they will in the future, just initial reactions are gonna be bitter.

Yeah, we're just too stupid to know our own minds. But your wisdom will surely rub off on us peons sooner or later.

I find it amusing you say this immediately after saying how bad it was to diss an actual person rather than a character.

I don't really think that can be considered dissing, There's slight annoyance of disagreement in it, but that's it. But still, yes, he shouldn't have attacked that statement, and you shouldn't have attacked his, too.

It's kinda funny how Sacchan and Ruki relationship turns out to mirror her relationship with the ex-boyfriend. Yeah, Sacchan has grown, but she gained it upon the expense of utterly crushing Ruki until she is broken into pieces. The 1 month she spent cheating and how she told Ruki about it has shown she never gave a single thought about Ruki's well-being. She laughed when the girl who devoted everything to her broke down crying. She is a freaking cruel and terrible person, the kind of abuser who makes their victims feel bad because they think they are not good enough.

last edited at Feb 22, 2015 10:52PM

You guys seriously aren't reading the same comic I am.

Okay, Ruki emotionally manipulated a fragile Sachi into having sex. Yes, there was True Love behind it (not that she ever really KNEW Sachi beyond the pedestal she placed her on). Yes, it was low self-esteem and wounded pining that motivated her, not malice or sociopathy. But she knew she was one of Sachi's only confidants, and she still pounced immediately after the thing with the ex-boyfriend went down, AND she went through with the act despite Sachi clearly not being into it. Very not okay. And a much better example of "not considering your partner's feelings" than anything Sachi has done.

I'm not saying Ruki is a terrible person, necessarily. But she is definitely a passive, immature, avoidant person. She assumed that she'd have to be the dominant one (because she's gayer, I guess), but her version of being a dominant partner is retreating into work and not talking to Sachi for weeks... and refusing to even define the relationship in the first place. That's never going to work. And it's Ruki's fault.

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of people want Sachi to just be Ruki's cute little perfect girlfriend, "won" fair and square from the fact that Ruki totally crushed on her for a long time in silent distress. Like, if the manga had ended right after Sachi said she'd consider maybe going out with Ruki, it'd be... happy? Personally, I think this is way more positive, because at least the power imbalances caused by Ruki's crush... and the immaturity on both their parts... are starting to get addressed.

And finally, about cheating? Not inherently bad. It's up to the partner. Ruki doesn't seem to want Sachi to apologize, so she doesn't have to apologize.

last edited at Feb 22, 2015 11:21PM

okay, im abit lost here... sacchi and ruki is dating? i know ruki confessed to her, but sacchi never answer her, so i thought they are not in a relationship... or maybe i was wrong? somebody enlighten me please

Yo f*ck this manga.... Imma still read it tho. Imma still read it

yeah man, me too.

I'm all up for hating Sacchan for choosing to cheat (& not even being slightly remorseful abt it) but the one I really despised this chapter is Ruki. Why would anyone want to stay in a relationship with a cheater? Regardless whether they admitted it, it doesn't mean it's been undone. It wasn't a choice made only by Sacchan (to stay together), Ruki was on it as well. And for that, she's by far the dumbest of them all.

For me, the better end would be Sacchan apologizes and swears she won't do it again and Ruki accepts it but asks for some time apart.

Anyway, anyone knows how many chaps left or is it fin?

Yeah. I think they will in the future, just initial reactions are gonna be bitter.

Yeah, we're just too stupid to know our own minds. But your wisdom will surely rub off on us peons sooner or later.

Seriously? Why resort to ad hominum because you're impassioned? Take a breath, I did nothing of what you suggested. I said that initial reactions are going to be bitter, and in the future, they will understand. They will. Not I will make them see. They will. Word choice is always intentional from me.

Ever heard the phrase, "Hindsight vision is always 20/20"? It is a known psychological fact that people need time to soak in and process to make their best and most likely true judgment calls on situations. It does not make their initial reactions any less real. It's part of the fun of storytelling! You get two different reactions for any given element in a story, and you can play with it as much as you want.

And if they don't see what I'm seeing? That's fine. That's real. That's their prerogative, and I will not even think about questioning it. But I THINK, in caps because it has come to my attention that people only want to choose the words they read from me, I THINK that people will see Sacchan in a better light in the future.

I didn't know Dynasty could be so hostile about a manga before. It makes me not want to venture into these forums again.

That's actually rather less nice than most of the hostility you're complaining about. Most of the people are badmouthing a fictional character. You're dissing actual people. Most of the people are dissing someone for a serious betrayal. You're saying anyone who does a little rant is so awful you don't want to associate with such trash ever again!
So yeah, if you wanna flounce, flounce, but I don't think that horse is as high as you think it is. Of course, "Oh dear! I feel like leaving! (but here's some long paragraphs about my POV)" isn't hugely convincing as an exit line.

I'm just talking about this specific topic, for a time. I didn't word my sentence correctly, but I mean I didn't want to come back while the fire is still hot and the rage is fresh. I'm fine with reading explanations on what the characters have done wrong because the story isn't perfect. I'm not acting like it is. But for a while I've felt like I've become those generic SAO fanboys everyone talks about; I'd just rather step away than get into useless arguments. Dynasty is a great place, don't get me wrong I love it here, I just find myself disliking it when everyone seems to be negative.

And I wasn't saying Sachi is flawless, or that what she's done is good and Ruki should feel honored, hell no. I can see where the negatives about her are in this chapter. Just because I say it's beautiful doesn't mean I think it's a happy ending; it's beautiful in the sense that it's realistic. Ruki is that timid person that will continue running back to Sachi because she loves her and doesn't know why, just like those people who can't get out of abusive relationships. Sachi doesn't have to apologize because she knows Ruki will accept anything she says for the sake of her feelings. It's unhealthily realistic and that's why I love it. I guess this makes me a bad person.

Honestly, I'm more interested in Maaru lol. It's more interesting and healthy and I care for it a lot more than Ruki/Sachi. I had hoped for a Remi/Ruki end, but if this drama is over and we see some Maaru progress I'm cool with it.

Maaru is the rich smart business girl? I'm also interested in her instead of this "cheating-is-ok" chapter as it's not ok - especially after you have been cheated yourself. If you dislike it, you'll not want to do the same thing to the person you love.

Okay, Ruki emotionally manipulated a fragile Sachi into having sex. Yes, there was True Love behind it (not that she ever really KNEW Sachi beyond the pedestal she placed her on).

It's difficult to know her when at that time Sachi didn't even know herself.

Yes, it was low self-esteem and wounded pining that motivated her, not malice or sociopathy. But she knew she was one of Sachi's only confidants, and she still pounced immediately after the thing with the ex-boyfriend went down, AND she went through with the act despite Sachi clearly not being into it. Very not okay.

True.

And a much better example of "not considering your partner's feelings" than anything Sachi has done.

Nope. Nope. Nope. Ruki was very invested in giving Sachi what she thought Sachi "wanted". She also put in effort trying to understand her and satisfy her. She failed, sure, but her failing at it doesn't make her effort disappear.
Sachi, on the other hand, never so much gave a single cent of thought about Ruki. The relationship is as much as a passing fun for her, as she never considered Ruki's feelings as being serious. Her nonchalant attitude was what killed Ruki, given the poor girl doesn't have much self-esteem to begin with. Her final talk with Ruki is all about her, from the beginning in the end, the idea of Rukia being hurt by her doesn't even seem to pop up or trigger anything in her at all. Ruki may as well be dust speck in her eyes.

I'm not saying Ruki is a terrible person, necessarily. But she is definitely a passive, immature, avoidant person. She assumed that she'd have to be the dominant one (because she's gayer, I guess), but her version of being a dominant partner is retreating into work and not talking to Sachi for weeks... and refusing to even define the relationship in the first place. That's never going to work. And it's Ruki's fault.

I agree to this to some certain extent. Thought I think what Ruki wants to achieve is not dominance in the relationship, but to be a "cooler" person, the kind Sachi was always seeking.

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of people want Sachi to just be Ruki's cute little perfect girlfriend, "won" fair and square from the fact that Ruki totally crushed on her for a long time in silent distress. Like, if the manga had ended right after Sachi said she'd consider maybe going out with Ruki, it'd be... happy? Personally, I think this is way more positive, because at least the power imbalances caused by Ruki's crush... and the immaturity on both their parts... are starting to get addressed.

To be honest, between a passive confused girl and a scumbag cheater, I would choose the passive girl over 1000 times. But since this is a story, I would say it always good to have some progress and character development, no matter what kind.

But while Sachi got some progress, what did Ruki got for herself ? She was utter crushed into a complete mess, who was saying yes to everything as long as it was with the person she loves. That's just regression.

And finally, about cheating? Not inherently bad. It's up to the partner. Ruki doesn't seem to want Sachi to apologize, so she doesn't have to apologize.

Sometimes, victims of abuse might be too broken or too scared to ask for justice with their abusers. Doesn't make the abuser any less of a terrible person.

And I wasn't saying Sachi is flawless, or that what she's done is good and Ruki should feel honored, hell no. I can see where the negatives about her are in this chapter. Just because I say it's beautiful doesn't mean I think it's a happy ending; it's beautiful in the sense that it's realistic. Ruki is that timid person that will continue running back to Sachi because she loves her and doesn't know why, just like those people who can't get out of abusive relationships. Sachi doesn't have to apologize because she knows Ruki will accept anything she says for the sake of her feelings. It's unhealthily realistic and that's why I love it. I guess this makes me a bad person.

I think many would feel the same way about the story like you. But the story being realistic isn't a reason for people to stop being upset about it. In fact, it may have the opposite effect.

As for me, I think the reason for my quite biased view and my disdain for Sachi is the fact that she reminds me of abusers from real life so much.

last edited at Feb 23, 2015 1:50AM

@otakuJin:

Oh nono. Maaru is my way of saying Maasa/Meru. XD Maasa is the rich one. Right?! I'd much have rather had the story be about her!

last edited at Feb 23, 2015 1:44AM

Re-reading it the relationship between Ruki and Sacchan is not totally clear. They definitely got into a sort of bad loop too, Ruki was kinda forcing herself and Sachi wasn't exactly communicative either. Ruki got so caught up in herself that she didn't really pay enough attention to Sacchan, and then their relationship got even more estranged... And Sachi just went with Remi because it was easy.

I think people who say Sachi was not thinking about Ruki at all are wrong. I also don't think Ruki was "destroyed", just that there was a lot pent up that needed to be let out (which she had been keeping back for a while). It's sad, it sucks, but they've figured something out in the end. And I feel like people are being far too naive and perfectionistic about relationships. Really. This stuff happens all the time. People cheat, lie, stop talking, get wrapped up in work, relationships have rocky spots. If people just said, "that's it, I'm out" every time something got screwed up than even fewer relationships would last.

I think Ruki and Sacchan's relationship is one that can be saved (with more openness for a start), while Fue and Asuna's couldn't be saved even with love. I think that's part of the point here. People seem to want to divide them up into good guys and bad guys but I just don't see that.

And finally, about cheating? Not inherently bad. It's up to the partner. Ruki doesn't seem to want Sachi to apologize, so she doesn't have to apologize.

Sometimes, victims of abuse might be too broken or too scared to ask for justice with their abusers. Doesn't make the > abuser any less of a terrible person.

Except... Ruki isn't being abused? Like, not in any way even remotely is she even close to being abused? Even if their relationship was explicit and exclusive... which I don't think it is... it's not abuse when your girlfriend has sex with someone else and then isn't sorry.

I don't know if that's what you mean, but I've read a good number of people in this discussion just kind of blithely mixing together cheating and abuse, and it's starting to get weird.

The other thing: Ruki wasn't even that bothered by Remi and Sachi having sex, because she was pretty much expecting to get dumped from the start anyway. Really can't get why people are so fixated on the "cheating" when A: that's not really what was even happening, and B: It's not all that central to the characters' arcs, here.

last edited at Feb 23, 2015 2:02AM

Yeah. I think they will in the future, just initial reactions are gonna be bitter.

Yeah, we're just too stupid to know our own minds. But your wisdom will surely rub off on us peons sooner or later.

I find it amusing you say this immediately after saying how bad it was to diss an actual person rather than a character.

I said it was a nastier thing to do, yes. But since I don't think dissing the fictional character is bad in the first place, it's only nastier than nothing, not flounce-worthy. And I do tend to react in kind to what's sent my way. Patronize me, I'll snark back. Why, was my comment an inaccurate summary of what was gotten at? Do tell.

last edited at Feb 23, 2015 2:39AM

Yeah. I think they will in the future, just initial reactions are gonna be bitter.

Yeah, we're just too stupid to know our own minds. But your wisdom will surely rub off on us peons sooner or later.

Seriously? Why resort to ad hominum because you're impassioned? Take a breath, I did nothing of what you suggested. I said that initial reactions are going to be bitter, and in the future, they will understand.

Ad hominem in what sense? I characterized your claim as being patronizing; I didn't characterize you as anything in particular except, I suppose, someone who occasionally says patronizing things.
You did exactly what I suggested. You're saying that everyone who disagrees with you only does so because unlike you, they haven't thought it through. Unfortunately, those who don't see your magisterial viewpoint are slaves to their emotions, but eventually that will pass, leaving them able to think, and then they will be able to understand your superior perspective. This also conveniently means you don't have to argue your position, because after all anyone who disagrees is only doing it because their reason has been overcome by blind passions.
Maybe you didn't notice that that's what you were doing. Maybe it's not what you intended to do. But it's what you did. Rather than accusing me, as long as you're so immune to emotional influence on your judgments, the non-emotional logical thing to do would be to retract the statement.

And just for the record, I take issue with the claim. My opinion is based firmly on considered views about ethical behaviour. These views tend to be fairly in tune with my emotional reactions but are far from being identical to them. It is certainly not going to magically morph into being against much of what I stand for after my emotional reaction to the manga recedes. But thanks all the same for presuming to know my own mind better than I do.

And finally, about cheating? Not inherently bad. It's up to the partner. Ruki doesn't seem to want Sachi to apologize, so she doesn't have to apologize.

Polyamory and open relationships aren't inherently bad. Cheating is. Ruki didn't tell Sachi to apologize, but it's clear she was absolutely crushed that Sachi cheated on her, and any reasonable person would have expected exactly that. Some of the arguments here are really reaching.

And finally, about cheating? Not inherently bad. It's up to the partner. Ruki doesn't seem to want Sachi to apologize, so she doesn't have to apologize.

Sometimes, victims of abuse might be too broken or too scared to ask for justice with their abusers. Doesn't make the > abuser any less of a terrible person.

Except... Ruki isn't being abused? Like, not in any way even remotely is she even close to being abused? Even if their relationship was explicit and exclusive... which I don't think it is... it's not abuse when your girlfriend has sex with someone else and then isn't sorry.

I don't know if that's what you mean, but I've read a good number of people in this discussion just kind of blithely mixing together cheating and abuse, and it's starting to get weird.

I dont mean to mix cheating with abuse. If that is what it sounds like to you, sorry for havent been clear enough.
Cheating, while very different from abuse in the physical sense, can deal as much just as much emotional damage to the person at the short end. Victim of abuse tends to think that they are unworthy, not good enough and they themselves are the reason the abusers lay their hand on them. What Ruki was feeling in this chapter is very much akin to that, she put all the blame on herself and her self esteem was basically crushed to dust. Sachi hurt Ruki, destroyed her ego, and even if Ruki was not asking for an apologize, if she was a decent being she at least should have feel sorry for her.

The other thing: Ruki wasn't even that bothered by Remi and Sachi having sex, because she was pretty much expecting to get dumped from the start anyway. Really can't get why people are so fixated on the "cheating" when A: that's not really what was even happening, and B: It's not all that central to the characters' arcs, here.

Ruki did care about it. A lot. You wouldnt have seen her saying why she couldnt be like Remi if that wasnt the case.

last edited at Feb 23, 2015 3:14AM

All of this stuff blaming the victim here seems a bit revisionist. Near as I can make out, Ruki was very straightforward. She simply and flat out confessed love, and then started inviting Sachi out on dates, talking to her intimately, and apparently (although it's skimmed past rather vaguely) having sex with her. If Sachi thought Ruki was just playing around, it's not because of anything Ruki did and certainly not because she, y'know, asked or anything.
And until the discussion post-cheating I don't remember anyone saying Ruki was being a bad girlfriend or anything. Only now, when they want to defend Sachi's behaviour by saying "Oh, it's the other girl's fault she cheated" are they looking back and finding fault. I find it unpersuasive. To the contrary, even before the cheating, on a second read-through it looks to me as though Sachi wasn't treating Ruki that well. She left her hanging after her confession--"Could you wait for a reply?"--fair enough as far as it goes, but then she basically started dating her, getting emotional relief from her, and having sex with her, without ever giving that reply. One might suggest that all the way through she used Ruki and her love, and let Ruki think what she wanted because it was convenient. I'm not committed to that interpretation, but it holds a bit more water than some of the reactive claims about Ruki being a lousy girlfriend.
Even the situation where Sachi started cheating--it all started from Sachi deciding it would be too much trouble to communicate with Ruki about her ex-boyfriend wanting to be introduced to Ruki.

last edited at Feb 23, 2015 4:04AM

i wonder if this was amano's first shot at a long(er) running series that wasn't a set of loosely associated vignettes? i think a lot of what people dislike about this story could have been avoided if the pacing was better, or at least slower. Spontaneous epiphanies and sudden character actions are pretty decently received in short stories, because there's a lot less space to work with, so readers will just take it at face value. Flat characters are also easier to swallow in a oneshot lol. I think it mightve been that the mangaka was trying to juggle too much (esp cast-wise) and everything got a bit shortchanged. Anyway, realistic is circumstantial and pretty vague of a label to paste on anything, tho I note that it mostly gets stuck on darker or unhappier stories (because happiness is in some way unrealistic?? interesting that a more lighthearted story has more hoops to navigate in order to fit that label but anything remotely depressing gets a free pass). I think I'd like this story more if it was clearer to me how we were supposed to take the last few chapters, because right now I'm not sure what the mangaka's opinion is.

meh. amano's hit and miss with me. at least the artstyle is always nice to look at.

Wow a lot of comments to defend the cheater, I hope you Never go through that. Oh and I like the manga and I know this things happen. I'm just surprised cheating it's not a big deal for you. I don't like Sach because she didn't feel bad at all for hurting Ruki.

Reading the chapter over I am starting to understand sachi a bit. You'll notice that, up to this point, she really didn't take their relationship seriously. She thought that it would be nice if someone strong and capable came along to protect Ruki and assumed that Ruki's feelings for her wouldn't last. She never gave serious thought to a lasting same sex relationship. Sure, she felt bad about herself for cheating, but also learned that sex can be enjoyable, which, I gather, she hadn't experienced with either Ruki or her ex. Then, realizing how badly she hurt this girl who seems to love her, even if she doesn't feel worth loving herself, she realized that she actually does care for her. If she didn't realize that, I don't think she would have admitted to cheating the way she did. She didn't know that Ruki knew already, after all. She wanted to come clean and start over, if Ruki would still have her. The fact that she has come out to her little sister says that she is serious about the relationship now.

Sure, I would like to see some more remorse from her and a promise to be a good and faithful girlfriend from now on, but I don't hate that they stayed together, or that they finally really are together, would be more accurate.

well, if my girlfriend cheated on me i'll leave her immediately... Sure i can forgive her but i cannot forget what shes done.

All of this stuff blaming the victim here seems a bit revisionist. Near as I can make out, Ruki was very straightforward. She simply and flat out confessed love, and then started inviting Sachi out on dates, talking to her intimately, and apparently (although it's skimmed past rather vaguely) having sex with her. If Sachi thought Ruki was just playing around, it's not because of anything Ruki did and certainly not because she, y'know, asked or anything.
And until the discussion post-cheating I don't remember anyone saying Ruki was being a bad girlfriend or anything. Only now, when they want to defend Sachi's behaviour by saying "Oh, it's the other girl's fault she cheated" are they looking back and finding fault. I find it unpersuasive. To the contrary, even before the cheating, on a second read-through it looks to me as though Sachi wasn't treating Ruki that well. She left her hanging after her confession--"Could you wait for a reply?"--fair enough as far as it goes, but then she basically started dating her, getting emotional relief from her, and having sex with her, without ever giving that reply. One might suggest that all the way through she used Ruki and her love, and let Ruki think what she wanted because it was convenient. I'm not committed to that interpretation, but it holds a bit more water than some of the reactive claims about Ruki being a lousy girlfriend.
Even the situation where Sachi started cheating--it all started from Sachi deciding it would be too much trouble to communicate with Ruki about her ex-boyfriend wanting to be introduced to Ruki.

@this and all of your other posts here: i love you platonically for these things man, perfectly describe the crap wrong with this and the fatc that people who don't agree with the cheating are being written off as driven by their emotions.

honestly i would love this if it wasn't shown to be a happy ending, this is not a happy ending, this a nightmare with sachi repeating the cycle her ex started, which again if this was shown to be a bad thing that would be fine since that is actually semi-accurate of what happens to some victims of abuse and/or cheating but nope according to the author this is perfectly fine.

to all the people defending this: make sachi a guy in your mind while re-reading this, see if it gets as much of a free pass as it does right now because yuri.