Cogito posted:

At certain points the arguments in this thread have been less about the manga and more about a moral disagreement tangentially related to the manga.

And yet, the tangent suggesting other posters are not discussing manga correctly has unsurprisingly much less to do with this manga than the posts being vaguely referenced.

Stories can be a great way to approach real-world issues. But to do that, you need to first understand the story on its own terms (otherwise you're not actually talking about the story at all), and it's that first step that's often missing.

Who determines what it means to "understand the story on its own terms"? I'd challenge you, or anyone taking issue with this discussion, to explain where Uranusandetc or flowsthead have committed wrongs in their character interpretations, with a lack of story understanding in mind. Failing that, I'm really not sure what value such meta discussion brings to this thread.

Cogito posted:

At certain points the arguments in this thread have been less about the manga and more about a moral disagreement tangentially related to the manga.

And yet, the tangent suggesting other posters are not discussing manga correctly has unsurprisingly much less to do with this manga than the posts being vaguely referenced.

Stories can be a great way to approach real-world issues. But to do that, you need to first understand the story on its own terms (otherwise you're not actually talking about the story at all), and it's that first step that's often missing.

Who determines what it means to "understand the story on its own terms"? I'd challenge you, or anyone taking issue with this discussion, to explain where Uranusandetc or flowsthead have committed wrongs in their character interpretations, with a lack of story understanding in mind. Failing that, I'm really not sure what value such meta discussion brings to this thread.

The “meta discussion” started with the question, “What does all this have to do with the story?” Some people think discussions are most fruitful when the commenters engage with the story itself rather than if the story or characters were something else, but nobody is preventing anyone from discussing anything they want in any way they want.

Unless that’s what you’re doing here.

last edited at Aug 24, 2022 6:24PM

manga : is wholesome
Dynasty users : going about length on a subject that wasn't in the author's mind at all

Always amazed how Dynasty can sometime a moutain out of a stone.

Blastaar posted:

nobody is preventing anyone from discussing anything they want in any way they want.

If you feel I made this claim directly or by implication, I'm happy to correct the misunderstanding. Myself aside, no individual participating in this conversation is capable of preventing any other poster from posting whatever they please. Though, given that you brought it up, I will add that it is entirely possible to dissuade other posters from participating by engaging in undue aggression, ridicule, or more direct pleading.

Some people think discussions are most fruitful when the commenters engage with the story itself rather than if the story or characters were something else

Sure. I'll ask again, more simply. Who is engaging with this manga "as if the story or characters were something else," and where? Barring any attempt at specificity, I fail to see how voicing personal frustrations about generalized "Dynasty readers" ("dynasty forum members," "people," "some user's," etc.) amounts to fruitful discussion of the story, either.

I'm currently left with the impression that if particular comments are not considered fruitful enough for a given poster, that poster could avoid engaging with them, and instead focus attention on the comments that better meet their standards.

Who determines what it means to "understand the story on its own terms"? I'd challenge you, or anyone taking issue with this discussion, to explain where Uranusandetc or flowsthead have committed wrongs in their character interpretations, with a lack of story understanding in mind. Failing that, I'm really not sure what value such meta discussion brings to this thread.

I'm not going to go back through the thread to see who all did it, but I do think the continuous comparisons of Mitsuki misleading Aya about her gender to a trans person not wanting to out themselves as trans is precisely the sort of context-ignoring hyper-politicized argument that can make civil conversations difficult. It fundamentally misunderstands Mitsuki's character and actions by comparing her to someone she is most decidedly not (even if we read her as nonbinary). I don't think it should be against forum rules or anything to make that argument, but it's also fair to say that anyone who does so is failing to "understand the story on its own terms" by importing into it an (emotionally charged -- for very good reason mind you) issue that is at best tangentially related.

Can't we appreciate just how fucking long it took for her to realize that was the same person?
Like, they have the same height, build, mole and presumably the exact same voice(Unless she was talkin' in some kind of weird Bane voice while wearing that mask)

Not to mention that Jerkface-kun recognized her instantly the first time he saw her in the store.

It is beyond credibility but I dunno some part of me also thinks it's not so odd. As someone who is very androgynous and regularly confuses people, I've noticed that after the initial " hello ma'am, er sir, er ma'am, er sir" people decide what gender I am and after that they just don't update with new information. It takes a lot for them to switch later. She thinks onii san is a man and that expectation colors her perception of store Mitsuki in a way she doesn't experience when interacting with her at school

last edited at Aug 24, 2022 11:48PM

Who determines what it means to "understand the story on its own terms"? I'd challenge you, or anyone taking issue with this discussion, to explain where Uranusandetc or flowsthead have committed wrongs in their character interpretations, with a lack of story understanding in mind. Failing that, I'm really not sure what value such meta discussion brings to this thread.

I'm not going to go back through the thread to see who all did it, but I do think the continuous comparisons of Mitsuki misleading Aya about her gender to a trans person not wanting to out themselves as trans is precisely the sort of context-ignoring hyper-politicized argument that can make civil conversations difficult. It fundamentally misunderstands Mitsuki's character and actions by comparing her to someone she is most decidedly not (even if we read her as nonbinary). I don't think it should be against forum rules or anything to make that argument, but it's also fair to say that anyone who does so is failing to "understand the story on its own terms" by importing into it an (emotionally charged -- for very good reason mind you) issue that is at best tangentially related.

As someone who has talked about the trans issue before, that's not being brought up because I think Mitsuki is trans. It's being brought up because there is a suggestion that lying about one's gender would always be wrong. So a counterargument by example would be an easy way to argue against that. Similarly to how people argue against the Kantian idea of lying always being bad by asking if you would lie to a crazed axe murderer to protect someone. It's not that every single lie being told is told to a crazed axe murderer but the idea is to point an obvious example in which a generalized statement does not hold.

No, Mitsuki is not trans and not nonbinary (unless the author tells us otherwise in the future but I highly doubt it). But using that argument isn't ignoring the context because the argument doesn't depend on the idea that only trans people can lie about their gender without moral implications. It's that lying about one's gender is something anyone should be allowed to do, but it's easiest to understand with the trans example.

It's an argument by example.

there is a suggestion that lying about one's gender would always be wrong. . . . It's that lying about one's gender is something anyone should be allowed to do, but it's easiest to understand with the trans example.

Well, first of all, the people in the trans example aren't lying about their gender, they're telling the truth about that; what they're lying/misleading about is that they're trans and not cis, which is a completely different axis of identity. A better example would be, off the top of my head, women in the Middle Ages who pretended to be men so they could work in male-exclusive occupations (sailing most famously). I think it's safe to say they weren't "wrong" to do so, but that leads to the second problem: there's an ocean of difference between "sometimes it's okay to lie about your gender" (obviously true) and "anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender" (this seems just straightforwardly false to me).

So if we're going to talk about this manga and not just speak in abstraction, the question is not whether in the abstract lying about your gender is sometimes ok, but whether Mitsuki deliberately misleading Aya -- not only about her gender but also about how her crush sits right next to her in class and hears her talk to her friends about her crush -- is justified. That question can't be answered by saying "well, in this other case that has a couple similarities lying about one's gender was justified."

Well, first of all, the people in the trans example aren't lying about their gender, they're telling the truth about that; what they're lying/misleading about is that they're trans and not cis, which is a completely different axis of identity. A better example would be, off the top of my head, women in the Middle Ages who pretended to be men so they could work in male-exclusive occupations (sailing most famously). I think it's safe to say they weren't "wrong" to do so, but that leads to the second problem: there's an ocean of difference between "sometimes it's okay to lie about your gender" (obviously true) and "anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender" (this seems just straightforwardly false to me).

If that's how you feel about it you are welcome to that, but from my perspective I think anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender, or rather than say lie, I don't think anyone has a right to demand to know your gender. It's not a matter of true and false, we're talking about different moral perspectives. Hence, I don't think Mitsuki is in the wrong because I don't think Aya has any kind of right to know Mitsuki's gender.

So if we're going to talk about this manga and not just speak in abstraction, the question is not whether in the abstract lying about your gender is sometimes ok, but whether Mitsuki deliberately misleading Aya -- not only about her gender but also about how her crush sits right next to her in class and hears her talk to her friends about her crush -- is justified. That question can't be answered by saying "well, in this other case that has a couple similarities lying about one's gender was justified."

Right, but since you didn't read the posts in question you might be missing that some of us have been arguing exactly this. We weren't just talking trans issues. We were talking specifically about whether Mitsuki was justified in her position, and I argued she was. Do you want me to repeat the arguments I made two pages ago?

We weren't just speaking in abstraction, but sometimes it's useful to start in abstraction before going into specifics. How can you know whether there is a point to have a discussion if you aren't using the same terms? If you think "it's only sometimes ok to lie about your gender" and I think "if in the process of not revealing your gender then it's always ok to lie" then we have a mismatch of moral standpoints. We might discuss anyway so as to learn about our different moral standpoints, or we might choose not to discuss since we might not get anywhere, but either way the abstraction is useful.

last edited at Aug 25, 2022 3:01AM

If that's how you feel about it you are welcome to that, but from my perspective I think anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender, or rather than say lie, I don't think anyone has a right to demand to know your gender.

It's not a question of "rights." Mitsuki has obviously not committed a literal crime. What she's done is (a) deliberately misled another person (b) in a way she knew, or should've known, would cause them great pain if they found out (as we saw happen in this very chapter) (c) purely in order to preserve this pseudo-friendship pseudo-romance thing she had going on with her. What precise information Aya had a "right" to know about is irrelevant. Mitsuki hurt her. She did a mean thing. She should apologize! (And I'm sure she will.) And that's all I have to say about this.

If that's how you feel about it you are welcome to that, but from my perspective I think anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender, or rather than say lie, I don't think anyone has a right to demand to know your gender.

It's not a question of "rights." Mitsuki has obviously not committed a literal crime. What she's done is (a) deliberately misled another person (b) in a way she knew, or should've known, would cause them great pain if they found out (as we saw happen in this very chapter) (c) purely in order to preserve this pseudo-friendship pseudo-romance thing she had going on with her. What precise information Aya had a "right" to know about is irrelevant. Mitsuki hurt her. She did a mean thing. She should apologize! (And I'm sure she will.) And that's all I have to say about this.

Aya was hurt, but that doesn't mean someone is at fault. People can be in pain without there being an offending party. Mitsuki probably will apologize, but that doesn't mean that she was at fault.

I can't help but read this scenario and just picture any other identity issue being replaced here and it reading completely differently to people. This is literally the plot of School Ties only Brendan Fraser isn't hiding his gender but hiding his religion from people that hate his religion.

I came here hoping to find discussions about the place we're at in the story, but once again I find only discourse... why can't we have a normal comments section...

why can't we have a normal comments section...

You must be new to the Internet.

why can't we have a normal comments section...

You must be new to the Internet.

Or Dynasty

why can't we have a normal comments section...

You must be new to the Internet.

Or Dynasty

Well I'd say this is quite egregious, even by Dynasty standards. I mean, we have 18 chapters with four pages each and 1700 posts in the thread. That's 94,4 posts per chapter (I've been waiting for this number to exceed 100 for a while now...), 23 posts for each page of manga.
Crazy, I tell you, crazy.

And I don't even get why "is lying about your gender bad" is the issue here. True, there is the concept of a "lie by omission", especially when a misunderstanding is allowed to persist once it's become apparent, but I'd argue that in cases like this, where it's a rather innocent misunderstanding rather than a deliberate attempt to mislead, it should be a non-issue. It's as white a lie as you'll ever get.
Mitsuki isn't "trying to mislead Aya". She's just too timid to come clean, and there's little harm in it, too. As with all supposed thought and speech crime, intent (where discernible) should matter.
It's not like she's trying to get in bed with Aya by deceiving her, that'd be a different story.

This may be a bit of a stretch, but compare the situation to something that's actually legally relevant.
There is crime by omission, at least where I live. If you see a person in danger, you're obliged to help as long as it is within your abilities and doesn't put you in danger yourself. That's for life and death situations, where the stakes are rather high. Thing is: This conversely means that if you convincingly (i.e. convincingly for others, not just deceiving yourself) see yourself unable to help, you're not obliged to. If you get nausea let alone pass out at the sight of blood, you'll be more easily excused for not providing first aid when someone else could easily have done so.
Looping back to the manga: Mitsuki currently sees herself as unable to fix the situation because she's timid, socially awkward and afraid of backlash.

I came here hoping to find discussions about the place we're at in the story, but once again I find only discourse... why can't we have a normal comments section...

There's always reddit. This manga is popular there as well if you want chapter by chapter discussions.

last edited at Aug 25, 2022 3:49PM

Page 69. Nice.

I can't help but read this scenario and just picture any other identity issue being replaced here and it reading completely differently to people.

I think we are in agreement that if the story were different than it is, it would read differently than it does.

homumikos posted:

I came here hoping to find discussions about the place we're at in the story, but once again I find only discourse... why can't we have a normal comments section...

Hi. You can actually find a great deal of discussion of chapter 18, starting back here, and more of it is always welcome. The "discourse" takes up perhaps 1 page out of 6, by my count.

I just realized this series has more than 1700 comments, holyfuck

Page 69. Nice.

Damn, beat me to it, lol.

Page 69. Nice.

Next milestone would be 100 posts per chapter.
I'm doing my part.

I mean, obviously some popular manga like Bloom Into You (<3) have way more than 100 posts per chapter, but they're also about 30 pages per chapter and not four.

last edited at Aug 25, 2022 4:35PM

I'll say again that I appreciated the discourse. Mitsuki is being totally chill about this and giving plenty of consideration to Aya; I like that mindset just fine. Aya isn't seeming insulted though so I can't wait to see her views on events!

It's fine to extrapolate arguments from examples and metaphors. That's part of the fun of literary criticism! Though that's not fun for all. The more angry and dismissive comments creeped me out sometimes, a first for this site. Forgiveness and no grudges but like... myself and people I know lived similar stuff to the story at times, it's very common, very mood for butch folks and trans folks. Lived experience: every extended misunderstanding (say on gender or sexuality) has different nuance for logic, decency, and safety. Mitsuki's familiar worry is gratifying, heartwarming in a way. Disagreeing with her is fine too (edit: she's kind of a coward). Please remember there's all kinds of folks and experiences relevant to enjoying or talking about a story that may not be obvious from our own experiences. I love that about fiction; parallels and disagreements highlight parts, additively.

It's really cool to see this portrayal of something familiar, and the premise (and art!) resonates widely enough for 69 pages of comments. Wow.

last edited at Aug 25, 2022 8:36PM

I would like to apologize if I was overly aggressive or dismissive; I wasn't in a good mood these past few days and shouldn't have gotten into an argument about sensitive issues while I was in that mental state. I haven't changed my position, but I really don't want to argue about it anymore lol, and I regret the role I played in causing drama in this thread. Hope everyone has a great weekend.

All's well, you have a good weekend too.

I will simply repeat my previous conclusion. Different users are interested in different discussions. If a user does not see merit in a given discussion being had, they would do better to avoid it rather than engaging in unproductive behaviours like mockery or dismissal. This particular thread covers a vast range of topics related to the manga, surely there's no need to lament one small conversation taking place within it.