Is there a part in this manga where it says that Ayako really love her husband or not since if not then maybe Asuka is the first one whom Ayako is really inlove with..??

Is there a part in this manga where it says that Ayako really love her husband or not since if not then maybe Asuka is the first one whom Ayako is really inlove with..??

Isn't her husband dead or something?

I don't think Ayako was ever in love with her husband. In a flashback he put the ring on her finger and told her it was okay to wear it. But you don't see them getting all lovey dovey or even her having loving memories.

But you don't see them getting all lovey dovey or even her having loving memories.

That's mostly because like said here, they doesn't seem to had the time to be lovey dovey. Not to mention it's said that the father approach Ayako forcely and probably insist a lot. Also it's mention he die within a year after they get married and don't even know that Yako was pregnant so it's easy to assume she got pregnant near the moment he die,otherwise he would have know.

I don't think Ayako was ever in love with her husband. In a flashback he put the ring on her finger and told her it was okay to wear it. But you don't see them getting all lovey dovey or even her having loving memories.

I dunno... We don't have evidence to say it's one way or the other.
All we know is that he proposed very forcefully and that she accepted, which surprised everyone because she had a reputation of indifference towards romance (or something like that, don't remember the details). If she didn't like him, the question would be: why did she accept, then?

I'm still not sure why people are so convinced that the flashback(s) in the opening of ch 15 are about abuse. They might be, but afaics isn't clear at all.

The first two images of her ("joy, "loneliness") could be years apart (hard to be sure hand drawn with very different angles, but skirt length and hair length seem slightly different; we don't get a clear look at her clothes or body in the second one so no age/time cues there).
Face touching can be comforting instead of fondling.
The clothing being dropped in the last one could just as easily be a coat or jacket as a dress (she is only wearing a dress in the first image, but this is clearly a different location, maybe even a different time, all bets are off). The first "joy" image she seems to be in shoes and socks, the last "fear" image, boots.

We know for certain that at some point in her past Ayako has had moments where she was being informed of her parents' death and of her husband's, no reason that couldn't be what this is.
I'm sure Taiyaki could do something interesting with a history of abuse but as a first/only interpretation, piling even more trauma into Ayako's history seems a bit excessive.

Or it's totally abuse and you searching excuse to believe it's not. What will be the point of the intro if it's nothing. You don't freaking imply a child abuse for NOTHING.

The first two images of her ("joy, "loneliness") could be years apart

She is reading the same book on the same bench. I can't believe you can think it's years apart.

I'm still not sure why people are so convinced that the flashback(s) in the opening of ch 15 are about abuse. They might be, but afaics isn't clear at all.

Oh, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so, I already thought I was going insane here. Of course, as you say, it could still turn out to be that, but it really isn't as clear as everyone makes it out to be - to the extent that I made no such connection at all when I read it and had to take another look after seeing all the comments here.

If it wasn't the case, I think the author needs to urgently clear that up (being on social media or the next chapter) because is not a stretch to say that most people took it that way and it's an alarming issue that can't be brushed off or ignored in future chapter, it changes my view of her character completely.

last edited at Dec 19, 2019 7:57PM

I'm still not sure why people are so convinced that the flashback(s) in the opening of ch 15 are about abuse. They might be, but afaics isn't clear at all.

Oh, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Me three.

I already thought I was going insane here. Of course, as you say, it could still turn out to be that, but it really isn't as clear as everyone makes it out to be - to the extent that I made no such connection at all when I read it and had to take another look after seeing all the comments here.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes Chekhov's gun does not shoot. The connection may be there -- or not. Let's wait and see what happens.

If it wasn't the case, I think the author needs to urgently clear that up (being on social media or the next chapter) because is not a stretch to say that most people took it that way and it's an alarming issue that can't be brushed off or ignored in future chapter, it changes my view of her character completely.

I think she has a plan. It’s exactly what happened with everyone thinking that Asuka had a sex relationship with senpai but she ended up not doing anything with her. She’s leaving us to make assumptions and let our imagination run wild. I think Ayako did get child molestation but I hope to Taiyaki-God that I’m wrong.

If it wasn't the case, I think the author needs to urgently clear that up (being on social media or the next chapter) because is not a stretch to say that most people took it that way and it's an alarming issue that can't be brushed off or ignored in future chapter, it changes my view of her character completely.

I think she has a plan. It’s exactly what happened with everyone thinking that Asuka had a sex relationship with senpai but she ended up not doing anything with her. She’s leaving us to make assumptions and let our imagination run wild. I think Ayako did get child molestation but I hope to Taiyaki-God that I’m wrong.

There a freaking difference between implying a sex scene betwen Asuka and Senpai when they end up stopping it just before doing it because of Asuka's mothercon being too strong and implying a child molestation/abuse. The first one, even if it happen wasn't too much of a big deal whereas the second one is too much of a big deal to be implying without being true.

Lilliwyt posted:

There a freaking difference between implying a sex scene betwen Asuka and Senpai when they end up stopping it just before doing it because of Asuka's mothercon being too strong and implying a child molestation/abuse. The first one, even if it happen wasn't too much of a big deal whereas the second one is too much of a big deal to be implying without being true.

Yeah and I can understand the author not wanting to show an old man raping a girl just to make things more clear... like "please, understand and don't make do more than this". Oh well, I would love to be wrong too.

Yeah and I can understand the author not wanting to show an old man raping a girl just to make things more clear... like "please, understand and don't make do more than this". Oh well, I would love to be wrong too.

I suspect the problem is that it came out of left field, like, it has zero to do with the central storyline, that's why many were caught by surprise: total new development, nobody was expecting it...
I kind of feel like that myself, I mean I'm hoping it's not what it looks like. I don't want the story to waste valuable time on stuff from 30 years ago, what I want is more development about Ayako/Asuka, now!

I really try to stay out of the prediction business on these matters, but I do note that the main previous example like this, Asuka’s encounters with Miyuki, suggested something rather more extreme in the flashback hints than actually occurred when we saw the whole story. That’s what I’m hoping we have here.

I’ve always been fine with an eventual Asuka/Ayako hookup and have been fascinated about how the author was going to get there, but I really don’t want Ayako’s willingness to be sexually intimate with her daughter turn out to be a function of psychological trauma because of childhood sexual abuse.

What I want is for Taiyaki to support the thesis, “Given the right circumstances, mother/daughter incest can be a good thing,” by showing us those circumstances.

But que sera sera.

last edited at Dec 20, 2019 10:57AM

^ That.

I'd say the way this is set up it's almost certainly going to be right now we're doing a 'getting together because of sexual abuse in the past is wrong' arc, as demonstrated by even incredibly thirsty Asuka being taken aback because of how Ayako suddenly is acting. It then stands to reason that there'll be another arc which will be more about 'how to get over the past and make wincest work'.

So far, despite the incest themes, there's been no real hurdles for the main couple to overcome. Presumably this arc was introduced to give them one, and to make them grow as characters.

Also rereading this section, I wonder what Ayako meant by this. She is blaming herself for Asuka falling in love with her. https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/1_x_ch06#22 I just assumed it was because she was pampering her as a kid

In this section here, https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/1_x_ch08#10 I'm wondering what the "You know what of yours" meant. It sounds like Akira is saying that Ayako is a player and Asuka genetically inherited from her so she is unable to deny Asuka's seducing skills. By Akira saying that they are close, sounds like they were sex friends with no feelings involved. Ayako's response to that is blushing and silent quote and in addition tothe next page where Akira asks if she was serious. Might be far fetched but I think the husband found out about their relationship and got into an accident after? I'm not sure how that is connected to Ayako blaming herself for Asuka's feelings for her

I think this is possible. We already know Akira has a thing for Ayako afterall. At the very least I wouldn't be surprised if something happened between Ayako and Akira at some point.

You don't freaking imply a child abuse for NOTHING.

My point was rather that Taiyaki may not even have meant to imply abuse. I didn't see it as the most obvious interpretation (though I can see how it is a possible interpretation), and at least a couple of others have said they didn't either.

It is important to remember that Taiyaki is writing in Japan for a Japanese audience. As I have mentioned previously, implication is very culture/context dependent.

In the West in recent years child sexual abuse (CSA) has been almost constantly in the media in a long series of headline grabbing scandals, enquiries, highly publicised "pedo busts", and political rallying cries to "think of the children". In psychology there is something called the availability heuristic - when we are trying to make sense of something our minds jump first to scenarios/framing that comes most easily. In the west at the moment CSA is the "go to" idea for childhood emotional trauma.

I can't claim to be familiar with the current Japanese culture in any comprehensive way, but I've been watching NHK news bulletins regularly for a few years now, and I get the impression that it is much less in the public consciousness there. The most recent big child abuse scandal I can remember was about physical abuse, not sexual. It might not even have occurred to Taiyaki that people would take it that way (or at least that they would be so sure about it). Even thought the underlying human experience is the same, their cultural attitude to sex, sexual assault and emotional trauma differ from Western culture in complex ways. Oddly enough despite Japan's extremely low murder rate, their national news has more coverage of murders than my country does.

I'm not against stories exploring CSA, I think it is a serious issue that can and should be explored in art. My mother was sexually abused as a child, it is an issue I am very much aware of, I'm just not (yet?) sure it is what is being depicted here.

My take is that it is more about Ayako's history with strong emotion than about any past event in particular.

For Ayako, emotions and actions haven't generally gone together. In the past she has been overwhelmed with emotion she didn't understand, and couldn't act on, but this time she does understand what it is ("Asuka is mine"), and she could act on it, though she thinks that she shouldn't. Entirely unexplored territory.

Out of affection and desire (and more than a little possessiveness and jealousy) she can't stop thinking about what Miyuki might have done with Asuka, and when Asuka pushes past her attempt to avoid things, she is overcome with the desire to experience some of those things herself (even though it scares her), hence the tongue.
Ayako's previous "slips" have been subconscious, and about intimacy and comfort, not sexual desire. Asuka has had years to get used to the idea of "wanting" her mother sexually (and had the "safety net" of thinking it could never happen), for Ayako the reciprocal desire, or any powerful desire, is brand new and terrifyingly possible.

Her mother is lost and confused, it may be Asuka's turn to be the grown up.

My take is that it is more about Ayako's history with strong emotion than about any past event in particular.

For Ayako, emotions and actions haven't generally gone together. In the past she has been overwhelmed with emotion she didn't understand, and couldn't act on, but this time she does understand what it is ("Asuka is mine"), and she could act on it, though she thinks that she shouldn't. Entirely unexplored territory.

Out of affection and desire (and more than a little possessiveness and jealousy) she can't stop thinking about what Miyuki might have done with Asuka, and when Asuka pushes past her attempt to avoid things, she is overcome with the desire to experience some of those things herself (even though it scares her), hence the tongue.
Ayako's previous "slips" have been subconscious, and about intimacy and comfort, not sexual desire. Asuka has had years to get used to the idea of "wanting" her mother sexually (and had the "safety net" of thinking it could never happen), for Ayako the reciprocal desire, or any powerful desire, is brand new and terrifyingly possible.

Her mother is lost and confused, it may be Asuka's turn to be the grown up.

I can see this!

I really try to stay out of the prediction business on these matters, but I do note that the main previous example like this, Asuka’s encounters with Miyuki, suggested something rather more extreme in the flashback hints than actually occurred when we saw the whole story. That’s what I’m hoping we have here.

I’ve always been fine with an eventual Asuka/Ayako hookup and have been fascinated about how the author was going to get there, but I really don’t want Ayako’s willingness to be sexually intimate with her daughter turn out to be a function of psychological trauma because of childhood sexual abuse.

What I want is for Taiyaki to support the thesis, “Given the right circumstances, mother/daughter incest can be a good thing,” by showing us those circumstances.

But que sera sera.

Yes!!!! Yes!!! Yes!!! This: "What I want is for Taiyaki to support the thesis, “Given the right circumstances, mother/daughter incest can be a good thing,” by showing us those circumstances."

Is everything!

On one hand, Ayako being abused at a young age would account for her personality. Her detachment to everything and mostly everyone would make sense but on the other, well it’s just painful and so devastating.

On the other, even if Ayako didn’t go through something so terribly traumatic, if she’s just naturally aloof, I’d accept it too because to each their own.

Though it’s beautifully poetic that the one she falls for is a part of her. Her other half is literally half of her...

There’s already that unbreakable bond between them.

Damn... Taiyaki is a genius either way.

Right now, Ayako and Asuka are fragile, one trying to decipher these new emotions while the other is trying so hard not to smother her mother with her desires. I can’t wait to see how they reach the middle ground.

Why do I get the feeling that Ayako was abused by a family member?