What could i say ? I'm a sucker for good ending even if it mean being the biggest asspull you ever seen. I just wish that we got an arc of Kaoru growning now and not Uta having a change of mine and coming back to her after the divorce.

i feel like were gonna see a time skip

Risako...My gay senses are tingling...

What was with that weird 2-page page towards the end, there? I think I get that Risako just naturally gets flirty when she's trying to be persuasive or ingratiating, and Kaoru was caught on the dilemma of whether to directly confront her or not. But the scene didn't play out like Risako actually keeping a big secret... SHE brought the whole thing up, and her irritation about Kaoru's suspicion had no sign of fakeness. But then she looked surprised when Kaoru didn't pursue the whole thing? And like... was part of Risako touching her that Kaoru liked it in a way she didn't want to admit?

And her whole deal was weird... she doesn't want to be married, but she also doesn't want to live alone? (Isn't that code for being gay in manga like this?) Maybe the deal is, she is cheating with Reiichi and she's guilty so she wants to be caught? (or she wants Kaoru's attention?) I dunno, there were just a lot of very deliberate choices in the dialogue and art that added up to something odd.

I'm actually rooting at this point for Reiichi NOT to be cheating. It makes too much sense: Kaoru desperately wants external reasons to justify doing things, so in a hazy moment, she WOULD invent evidence for a very convenient suspicion that would be a socially justifiable reason to divorce her husband. This actually does fit the theory that she's very closeted... though that isn't the only thing that's work.

I could still see an Uta/Kaoru ending on the horizon - from the beginning, Uta was the only part of Kaoru's life that was giving her any kind of real emotional satisfaction or happiness, but she just used that as a crutch to let her wallow in her miserable situation without having to change anything.

Now that Uta's gone, and with her, any excuse of happiness that Kaoru had, I do think we're starting to see the very early glimpses of Kaoru growing as a person - she's stopped averting her eyes from all the people in her life lying to her face. Even if she can't yet confront them about it, she's still deliberately pressing on the lies she's being fed, watching them creak under the strain. I think that Uta being honest with her, even if it hurt, has made her question why nobody else is willing to do the same.

If she can, independently, by her own strength of will, force the truth to be revealed? If she can then free herself from this situation, even if doing so seems even more hopeless and miserable than she already is? That would be following in Uta's footsteps, taking inspiration from her courage and honesty.

Then, only after she's learned from Uta, and allowed everything to fall apart, could I see them meeting up again, and maybe staying together. That part's important - I think Kaoru has to be willing to walk away with nothing, before she can justifiably start something new with Uta. Otherwise, yeah, like Blastaar has said, it'll just be them sliding back into a comfortable bog, and undoing any sense of progress or meaning any of this might have had.

last edited at Nov 16, 2019 2:07PM

This really was the worst use of a 2-page spread I've ever seen. Maybe the significance of it will be apparent after a few more chapters. Then again, maybe not.

I'm actually rooting at this point for Reiichi NOT to be cheating. It makes too much sense: Kaoru desperately wants external reasons to justify doing things, so in a hazy moment, she WOULD invent evidence for a very convenient suspicion that would be a socially justifiable reason to divorce her husband. This actually does fit the theory that she's very closeted... though that isn't the only thing that's work.

I'm rooting for him to not being cheating too. But that's because I can only see Kaoru being with him. Her being in the closet seems way too stretched imo and literally the only reason this might happen would solely be for the happy yuri ending.

A crazy ending that I wouldn't mind would be Risako ending up having a secret crush on Kaoru. Then Risako and Uta bonding over it, and when Uta becomes an adult they start date each other.

Yeah then you still have to explain why he lie about the business trip and why we was with Risako from all people ?

last edited at Nov 16, 2019 2:51PM

Lilliwyt posted:

Yeah then you still have to explain why he lie about the business trip and why we was with Risako from all people ?

Planning Kaoru's surprise birthday party, a classic

You are for some people really too scornful towards kaoru just because she didn't say yes to uta.... It has never been the bad girl in the story, if uta could be the person she is it is because of the attention and affection that kaoru gave her...
Now like you, she irritates me on many points, but here too you don't take the necessary distance on her personality, she is kind and submissive towards her relatives, she wants her entourage to be happy and that's enough for her to be satisfied. He is a person like there are in real life.
Now we clearly feel a shift in the way she manages her emotions, she is starting to show others that she is suspicious and that she suspects them... which is a huge change at her level.
It is clear that the next step is to finally make some radical decisions because, as she says, she will not accept a single deviation from the people close to her, and that means reiichi and risako.
It didn't end between her and uta, the many memories or observations she makes on uta prove it and it's still fresh, she'll inevitably miss it more and more, it's inevitable.
The problem for some people is that it doesn't go fast enough and now I understood that the author will take all his time and that this story will last a long time, so that the evolution of the characters are realistic and not hyper speed.

I think we're on a kaoru bow and then we're going to move on to uta (and I don't think it'll be a joy for her either at her mother's house), the author will let us separate one of them for a while, each one evolving on her side to necessarily have a reunion one day or the other for some reasons...

I'm actually rooting at this point for Reiichi NOT to be cheating. It makes too much sense: Kaoru desperately wants external reasons to justify doing things, so in a hazy moment, she WOULD invent evidence for a very convenient suspicion that would be a socially justifiable reason to divorce her husband. This actually does fit the theory that she's very closeted... though that isn't the only thing that's work.

I'm rooting for him to not being cheating too. But that's because I can only see Kaoru being with him. Her being in the closet seems way too stretched imo and literally the only reason this might happen would solely be for the happy yuri ending.

Kaoru being in the closet fits her whole deal very well THEMATICALLY... she ignores things because she hates taking a stand, and she'd absolutely sit on being gay because coming out wouldn't be what the people around her want for her. But it hasn't really been foreshadowed.

Either way, I dunno if Kaoru/Uta is the end goal. It could just be a coming-out story for Kaoru. (it actually kind of is no matter what, just "coming out" might not be literally about being gay for her, but rather just having desires of her own at all)

It definitely is being realistic. Kaoru is acting exactly like you would expect of her, really, that's how her character is. The lies from Risako this time are doing the opposite of reassuring her, the thing is she knows they're lies and can't pretend so easily now.

I was hoping she would accuse Reiichi but it figures she would go passive-aggressive. He would just deny it anyway. Definitely Uta leaving has unblocked the situation, in a sense she was playing "we can stay together (and I can ignore the lies) because of the kid!" But now that doesn't really work.

I'm not sure how it's going to happen, Reiichi and Kaoru both tend to avoid conflict, but this is just the first little blow-up. My impression (from watching other people) is that most divorces don't happen in a day, there is a period of arguing and lies being exposed in the case of cheating that goes on for months to years.

Well, now to wait another seeming eternity for the next step, probably going to Uta for a bit. If you read it all at once, the plot is actually going pretty fast, but because it's a serial it seems really slow.

I went back and skimmed a few chapters, and there have been repeated references to Kaoru being familiar with intense, unrequited love, and some sort of romance drama that happened to her in high school. Do we know what that is? Is that... Reiichi while he was dating Risako?

I am 90% sure that Reiichi is NOT cheating. Instead, I think Risako is his outlet for talking about his relationship with Kaoru. I also think it's pretty clear Reiichi knows about Uta's feelings, but after trying and failing to talk to her about it, he just mysteriously 'leaves town,' and hammers it home, "Hey, Kaoru, you and Uta TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER WHILE I'M GONE, okay?" Actually, a couple of times, he 'leaves' and really plays up for them to spend time together. And if Risako knows about Uta's feelings, that explains part of the weirdness with her giving Uta the gift for Kaoru.

Yuri-goggles tells me it makes a lot of sense that Kaoru had a crush on Risako in school, and both Risako and Reiichi know. Kaoru does not know... or at least, she won't admit it to herself. So for Reiichi, who wants Kaoru to be happy but lacks the ability to firmly say anything (especially that his parents would disapprove of), he'd see Uta's feelings as a potential way out. Kaoru admits she's gay, and now they have a reason to get divorced that's no one's fault. As a bonus, Uta's happy.

(Even without yuri-goggles, Reiichi's character makes a lot more sense if the secret he's keeping with Risako isn't cheating, but just that he tells her that he doesn't want to be married but would never actually bring that up to his wife.)

last edited at Nov 16, 2019 5:22PM

I rather have a bad ending that one of your theory because they're too farfetched.

I put down the story a few chapters after the convenient amnesia, and decided to wait a bit until that arc passed. Only now to come back more than a year later with it still going strong. Its still a really interesting story but I'm going back into my cave until i guess the conclusion with hopefully a yuri end of any sort.

The series is “realistic” in the sense that in real life people stay in untenable emotional situations for long periods, decades or even lifetimes. Those aren’t the most compelling stories, though, unless you’re a social worker or therapist.

Is it “realistic” in a genre sense? No, not really. Not enough psychological detail, too much muddled narrative, too many trope-y moments with the secondary characters.

People seem pretty adept at making excuses for this one. Convincing arguments that it’s a successfully achieved authorial intention? Not so much.

last edited at Nov 16, 2019 6:06PM

People seem pretty adept at making excuses for this one. Convincing arguments that it’s a successfully achieved authorial intention? Not so much.

Well, but what is the authorial intention?

People seem pretty adept at making excuses for this one. Convincing arguments that it’s a successfully achieved authorial intention? Not so much.

Well, but what is the authorial intention?

That’s been the question all along—WTF does this author think they’re doing?

People seem pretty adept at making excuses for this one. Convincing arguments that it’s a successfully achieved authorial intention? Not so much.

Well, but what is the authorial intention?

That’s been the question all along—WTF does this author think they’re doing?

...how can you criticize the author for not achieving what they intend when you don't know what they intend...?

Anyway, it seems to me like the author is trying to tell an engaging melodrama about unrequited love and the costs of not speaking up about your feelings. Based on the reactions, some people think the author has succeeded and some don't.

People seem pretty adept at making excuses for this one. Convincing arguments that it’s a successfully achieved authorial intention? Not so much.

Well, but what is the authorial intention?

That’s been the question all along—WTF does this author think they’re doing?

...how can you criticize the author for not achieving what they intend when you don't know what they intend...?

Anyway, it seems to me like the author is trying to tell an engaging melodrama about unrequited love and the costs of not speaking up about your feelings.

Not to mention the wacky romantic hijinx of a crew of lesbian high school girls who hang out at the apartment one of them lives in alone above the cafe where a couple of them work.

The “don’t know what the author intends” is a function of the incredibly muddled storytelling.

People seem pretty adept at making excuses for this one. Convincing arguments that it’s a successfully achieved authorial intention? Not so much.

Well, but what is the authorial intention?

That’s been the question all along—WTF does this author think they’re doing?

...how can you criticize the author for not achieving what they intend when you don't know what they intend...?

Anyway, it seems to me like the author is trying to tell an engaging melodrama about unrequited love and the costs of not speaking up about your feelings.

Not to mention the wacky romantic hijinx of a crew of lesbian high school girls who hang out at the apartment one of them lives in alone above the cafe where a couple of them work.

The “don’t know what the author intends” is a function of the incredibly muddled storytelling.

The series was not like this at the beginning, though. It started out pretty strong, and had a clear and concise theme, a girl with one-sided feelings for her sister-in-law. But along the way it started to lose its focus, and it muddled things to the point where it looks like it will need a further 30 chapters at the very least to resolve anything. Focusing on the side characters too much, adding unnecessary plotlines (to the point the original one pretty much vanished), I do not think the author is making a "slow burn" out of it, I think the author simply has no, or almost no idea where to take this, and is aimlessly drifting. I would be very surprised if these chapters are actually planned in advance.

Dat ch27 credits page tho... I was kind of hoping it was going that way lol

Why the fuck, something is fishy i just don’t know what it is yet..

last edited at Nov 16, 2019 8:01PM

Dat ch27 credits page tho... I was kind of hoping it was going that way lol

yeah finally someone in the same boat with me loll

last edited at Nov 16, 2019 8:09PM

Not to mention the wacky romantic hijinx of a crew of lesbian high school girls who hang out at the apartment one of them lives in alone above the cafe where a couple of them work.

The “don’t know what the author intends” is a function of the incredibly muddled storytelling.

The series was not like this at the beginning, though. It started out pretty strong, and had a clear and concise theme, a girl with one-sided feelings for her sister-in-law. But along the way it started to lose its focus, and it muddled things to the point where it looks like it will need a further 30 chapters at the very least to resolve anything. Focusing on the side characters too much, adding unnecessary plotlines (to the point the original one pretty much vanished), I do not think the author is making a "slow burn" out of it, I think the author simply has no, or almost no idea where to take this, and is aimlessly drifting. I would be very surprised if these chapters are actually planned in advance.

I for one thinks the story is quite well made in which the main conflict does not happen in a bubble with the characters. The characters involved are/are still quite dependent on others. Uta is still a child and still relies on adults for many parts of her life, mainly her brother, her parents/mom and Kaoru primarily because of her age. Kaoru on the other hand is also dependent on the people around her, but not because of financial or parental reasons but because of her personality type that makes her have to rely on the inputs of people around her to have a sense of self or urgency.

An interesting thing here is that they are both mutually dependent on each other. Uta is decisive and shows initiative, shown in the previous chapters where she started to compute her savings and also confessed to AND confronted Kaoru to find a response to her feelings. Kaoru though shows the opposite of this, relying more on her friends and focusing on the hapiness and keeping a state of agreement between the people she loves. Kaoru acts upon her wishes INDIRECTLY, always second guessing herself and does not assert her true thoughts and feelings well (as evidenced in this chapter where she didn't pry when Risako opened her doubt, did not directly answer Uta's confession at first) and is inclined making compromises instead of acting to her will (most seen in the part where she supported Uta leaving as to make them 'a family' again despite the family background).

The first part of the story focuses more on Uta, she has a clear goal and the initiative to do so and had done so. She had friends that accept her for how she is and friends who she can trust with her issues. This part we're in focuses on Kaoru, where she keeps making compromises and is watching them fall apart. This may be in part with her situation, she seems to be the 'baby' of the friend group (referenced as to how they come up with answers and things for her to do whenever she shares a problem and their patronizing attitude of her) and also a big factor to Uta and her brother's parents falling apart as stated in earlier chapters.

To this I agree that the story seems to be aimlessly wandering for now, but it is in a way that is true to Kaoru's character. Kaoru seems like the type of person who would need a very direct stimulus to get her to decide for herself, and as Uta already passed the baton of her feelings to Kaoru (the story now instead of 'girl with one-sided feelings for her sister-in-law' to 'woman reacting to one sided feelings of her husband's younger sister') we have to wait for what she does and what happens next in the story.

That was a long post, but yes, I think this is how the story is unraveling to be. Kaoru being somewhat a parallel to the girl who fell in love with the nurse and is now using promiscuity to fill her heart. The story could have well went another way, perhaps excluding the parts of the other people in their lives to make it a lot less muddled, but the muddiness of all the other people getting a say on what their life should be gives it that weird twist that appears some people love and some people hate from what I get from this forum. The characters are very context bound, I tell you guys that, and it seems to me this story will be more about the ride than the destination.