Forum › Kimi wa Shoujo discussion

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

AW, the ending was so cute!! Even though I was hoping that this series would’ve been longer, I enjoyed it and am satisfied with the ending

Lol some of these comments are amusing. Ima just sprinkle some of my controversial opinions: Me, myself and I personally believe that there is no predator nor victim here. I’m sure all of you are strictly law abiding citizens who would never think about committing crimes, even the most petty ones. But if you can manage to look past rigid (and arbitrary) laws, I think their relationship was consensual. The younger girl wasn’t raped nor coerced. Sure, she was seduced, but she also consented to everything that happened afterwards without any form of resistance. Since she has fully functioning mental faculties as well as reproductive capabilities, I believe her consent is valid :)

Yanno I've noticed a trend with your comments. >.> Please tell me you're not actually a pedophile who has a dodgy understanding of consent.

"Consent" is constantly getting redefined, what it means today is quite a bit different to what it meant 50 years ago and entirely unrecognizable to what it meant through most of human history. Yes consent is important, but I think it's important to not forget how rapidly things have changed and how poorly defined such things are. Thinking consent is a fixed and well defined and understandable thing I think is a sign of not having much life experience. What the term means differs vastly between cultures even in modern day world. It even differs between western countries, though to a lesser extent. Your own parents and grandparents probably define consent differently than you as well.

Your right, consent keeps getting redefined. As we learn to become more sensitive to the victims of these crimes, we refine our definition of consent to better protect them.
For heaven's sake! The girl was so young and naive, that she didn't even understand, what was being done to her, was sex! If that isn't too immature to give consent, then the concept, of consent, is meaningless!

last edited at Dec 21, 2018 12:04AM

Cs4_cover
joined Jul 13, 2015

Well, thanks to her Maki understand her sexuality and now she seduce girls frequently, well, with some small change the first page could be the last one with the protagonist.

Sena
joined Jun 27, 2017

Your right, consent keeps getting redefined. As we learn to become more sensitive to the victims of these crimes, we refine our definition of consent to better protect them.
For heaven's sake! The girl was so young and naive, that she didn't even understand, what was being done to her, was sex! If that isn't too immature to give consent, then the concept, of consent, is meaningless!

To be fair, our understanding of murder and due process is pretty good too, yet few people criticize Murcielago and so on for doing away with that. Why is it that we have a tougher time with fictional sex crimes (or at least ethical dubiosity) than with fictional crimes of violence?

White%20rose%20index
joined Aug 16, 2018

Btw, it's very unusual for a relatively short story like this one to get 20 pages of comments... it's good to see that, in this forum, quality is appreciated!

Appreciated!?!?

You didn't really bother reading those 20 pages of comments, did you?

I'm so jealous of Maki, she's, like, the luckiest chick in the world! (I'll shamelessly admit it: I was immersing myself in the story as Maki all along. Actually, that's probably the right way of reading it as the author intended, haha.)

Well, I do agree with you in that point: we, the readers, are obviously expected to identify with Maki - and vicariously enjoy the pleasure of being seduced and dominated and banged by a super cool beauty like Kaoru. I'm certain that's the way Japanese girls enjoy this sort of story.

It's rather funny that, in this here forum, most readers identify more with Kaoru...

joined Jul 26, 2016

It's rather funny that, in this here forum, most readers identify more with Kaoru...

[citation needed]

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

Pyoro posted:

Your right, consent keeps getting redefined. As we learn to become more sensitive to the victims of these crimes, we refine our definition of consent to better protect them.
For heaven's sake! The girl was so young and naive, that she didn't even understand, what was being done to her, was sex! If that isn't too immature to give consent, then the concept, of consent, is meaningless!

To be fair, our understanding of murder and due process is pretty good too, yet few people criticize Murcielago and so on for doing away with that. Why is it that we have a tougher time with fictional sex crimes (or at least ethical dubiosity) than with fictional crimes of violence?

We have a tougher time with torture too.

With rape, they both involve taking away more than life. They take away humanity.

Once you're dead, it's over. But rape and torture never end.

White%20rose%20index
joined Aug 16, 2018

[citation needed]

You know, all the complaining about Kaoru being a pedophile, and a predator, and how dirty it feels, and so on and so forth?
That obviously comes from people who related to the older woman rather than the schoolgirl... and were outraged by what happened next.

calm down yall we starving kids to death in yemen

this is nothing :P

last edited at Dec 21, 2018 3:51PM by

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Your right, consent keeps getting redefined. As we learn to become more sensitive to the victims of these crimes, we refine our definition of consent to better protect them.
For heaven's sake! The girl was so young and naive, that she didn't even understand, what was being done to her, was sex! If that isn't too immature to give consent, then the concept, of consent, is meaningless!

To be fair, our understanding of murder and due process is pretty good too, yet few people criticize Murcielago and so on for doing away with that. Why is it that we have a tougher time with fictional sex crimes (or at least ethical dubiosity) than with fictional crimes of violence?

I'm fine with arguments like, "It's just a story, so relax.", or "If you don't like it, don't read it.". What disturbs me, is there seems to be people, who are arguing that the older woman did nothing wrong, when she is clearly a pedophile. Again the girl was too young and naive, to understand what was being done to her! If the age of concent laws are not set up to protect victims like that, then what the hell are they for?!
I might read books, or watch movies, where the protagonist, goes on a revenge fueled murder spree, hell, I'll even cheer the person on, as they mow down the vile scum, by the truck load. However, when I put down the book, or walk out of the theater, I know what the protagonist did was wrong. So, whether we liked this story, or not, we should all be able to agree, that the older woman is most assuredly a sex offender.

Edit; For the record I wasn't cheering the older woman on. rereading the comments, I agree with White Rose's point, we are ment to sympathise with girl. Still I wish, the author had made the girl sophisticated enough to give consent.

last edited at Dec 21, 2018 6:41PM

White%20rose%20index
joined Aug 16, 2018

Once you're dead, it's over. But rape and torture never end.

Funny, I thought it was death that lasts forever and never ends. The one thing from which you never get better.

Qy1n9jd3ivu
joined Dec 23, 2018

Girl did not know what lesbian sex was. When she discovered it was sex between two women what happened to her, she felt more immature than before. It bothered her more than having sex, when she realizes it was sex between two females (girl and woman).

Not sure it could be called a rape. There's something like response, a sudden decision to answer to a girl who is asking for becoming an adult. It did not look like a rape. Rape does not look like it was here, in manga. It is probably closer to 'being tricked" into sex, than raped.

The only shocking thing is age gap between 14 and 30 (what would not be shocking if it was 18 and 34 years old, 20 and 36, etc.)

And, why should a girl who is "raped", desire having sex again with the same person, after "being raped"?

last edited at Dec 26, 2018 12:22AM

F4x-3lwx0aa0tcu31
joined Apr 20, 2013

HayaH posted:

Girl did not know what lesbian sex was. When she discovered it was sex between two women what happened to her, she felt more immature than before. It bothered her more than having sex, when she realizes it was sex between two females (girl and woman).

Not sure it could be called a rape. There's something like response, a sudden decision to answer to a girl who is asking for becoming an adult. It did not look like a rape. Rape does not look like it was here, in manga. It is probably closer to 'being tricked" into sex, than raped.

The only shocking thing is age gap between 14 and 30 (what would not be shocking if it was 18 and 34 years old, 20 and 36, etc.)

And, why should a girl who is "raped", desire having sex again with the same person, after "being raped"?

Before thinking if it is rape or not, try imagining yourself arguing in the court with your argument... Just go back to the first chapters, she clearly doesn't know about sex and wasn't interested in having sex... She clearly says she doesn't know what's going, ask to let her go and that she wants to go home, what was the response of the woman? "Fuck that, I'm horny"... Also, no, rape isn't a gamble "Let's try forcing random teenagers into sex, if they like it, then It's fine!" that's not how it works.

last edited at Dec 26, 2018 12:35AM

Rosmontis
Nevrilicious Scans
joined Jun 5, 2015

HayaH posted:

Not sure it could be called a rape.

Well your opinion is irrelevant. People will tell you it was statutory rape and that is all that matters. You can't have adult having sex with someone below 18 without them raping them in the process. Welcome to real world.

joined Jul 26, 2016

HayaH posted:

Not sure it could be called a rape.

Well your opinion is irrelevant. People will tell you it was statutory rape and that is all that matters. You can't have adult having sex with someone below 18 without them raping them in the process. Welcome to real world.

Strictly speaking the actual age limit varies by legislation and often has all manner of caveats tacked on, and primarily stems from the point that legally juveniles are not considered capable of giving their informed consent.

Rosmontis
Nevrilicious Scans
joined Jun 5, 2015

random posted:

Strictly speaking the actual age limit varies by legislation

Yes, but most people assume 18 by default.

last edited at Dec 26, 2018 2:29AM

joined Jul 26, 2016

random posted:

Strictly speaking the actual age limit varies by legislation

Yes, but most people assume 18 by default.

Mistakenly, since by far the single most common age of consent worldwide (including 30 out of 50 of US states; only 12 have it at 18) seems to be 16. Any number of caveats apply according to specific legislations as mentioned above ofc.

Qy1n9jd3ivu
joined Dec 23, 2018

HayaH posted:

Not sure it could be called a rape.

Well your opinion is irrelevant. People will tell you it was statutory rape and that is all that matters. You can't have adult having sex with someone below 18 without them raping them in the process. Welcome to real world.

OK, after checking those definitions you are right.
We (using plurality for personal pronounce) tried to understand what was happening here.
It's not like giving an approval, what we said, just some opinion (without entering in reality of the world, observing only manga as work of fantasy, and this one particularly).
Of course in reality things like this should not happen.

The strange thing about sexuality is, it "allows" fantasies which many people would never dare to realize, ever.
The subject is very sensitive, because, how much "guilty" is someone, by "wishful thinking"?
Is it same like wishing to murder someone? In that case, you did not commit a murder, but you actually wanted to kill someone for some reason.
In sexual fantasies, people do the same. We are trying to understand it, why it's happening?
Does it make someone "guilty" without guilt?
If someone have ideas or answers, it would be nice to hear, and understand.

Qy1n9jd3ivu
joined Dec 23, 2018

HayaH posted:

Girl did not know what lesbian sex was. When she discovered it was sex between two women what happened to her, she felt more immature than before. It bothered her more than having sex, when she realizes it was sex between two females (girl and woman).

Not sure it could be called a rape. There's something like response, a sudden decision to answer to a girl who is asking for becoming an adult. It did not look like a rape. Rape does not look like it was here, in manga. It is probably closer to 'being tricked" into sex, than raped.

The only shocking thing is age gap between 14 and 30 (what would not be shocking if it was 18 and 34 years old, 20 and 36, etc.)

And, why should a girl who is "raped", desire having sex again with the same person, after "being raped"?

Before thinking if it is rape or not, try imagining yourself arguing in the court with your argument... Just go back to the first chapters, she clearly doesn't know about sex and wasn't interested in having sex... She clearly says she doesn't know what's going, ask to let her go and that she wants to go home, what was the response of the woman? "Fuck that, I'm horny"... Also, no, rape isn't a gamble "Let's try forcing random teenagers into sex, if they like it, then It's fine!" that's not how it works.

Ok, we understand now what is about from point of reality. We already commented that we observed manga just as point of fiction, and "artistic freedom" to create the story.

What we see, there is few types of readers, those who are objective (watching from aside on the stories), and those who are subjective, inclined more to identify with characters and connect work with reality.

Personally, we are more objective readers (call it voyeur level, if you wish), rarely identifying with characters or stories. There is one exception, which made us feel "identified", and it was only Cho-ul, from Pet's Aesthetic. And it was again, same as our description of types of readers (our impression was that Cho-ul does not enjoy things on physical levels, getting more excitement from sensuality, enjoying her lover visually, tasting her, and hearing her, than she enjoyed it receiving physical pleasure. Simply, thing is deeper than dom -sub explanation, entering in abstract levels of sexuality, not only physical).

We observed manga as work of fantasy, which we explained in comment above. And not approving it in reality.
it's same comparing to watching porn, and having fantasies. There are people who can be turned on, simply on ideas, even bad ideas, not acting upon it in reality, ever. This manga reminds us on it, somehow. It's like author imagined what could be if it was like in manga...
And even if manga has some autobiographic backgrounds founded on reality, no one can surely say is it a point of view of a girl, or of a woman (personally, we would say it's from a point of view a girl).

Actually, we are amazed with reactions of many readers, and we are trying to understand that border line, when someone gets it "too realistic" than it really is. It's just our personal opinion, and we asked a many questions in our previous comment (not quoted one here, there is another one...).

Sorry if our comment was taken as defending a rapist, or supporting sex with minors. It's not.

We just don't understand that physical aspect of sex clearly. Including potential crimes.

Edit: To add, from manga can be concluded that girl knew about sex, but not lesbian sex (she is saying something like "occasionally she moved in-out" and then she checked about nude women in embrace, and realizes it was sex. So she was initiated with "in-out" as a vague idea what it might be, still having no name for it. It would be impossible that she did not know anything about sex, before.
As we said, even if author created manga from autobiography, from POV of girl, she is not clearly presenting herself as a victim, and she is trying to "defend" the older woman, not taking so harshly as readers.
We sense something like it, from manga. But it's only our personal perception, without intentions to enter further in possibilities of reality and laws, and mix it with a story as it is...

last edited at Dec 27, 2018 2:04AM

Utenaanthy01
joined Aug 4, 2018

You can't have adult having sex with someone below 18 without them raping them in the process. Welcome to real world.

Strictly speaking the actual age limit varies by legislation and often has all manner of caveats tacked on.

Yep. Look at North America and you'll see that age of consent is 16 in Canada and most of USA, and between 12 and 14 in Mexico (changes with the state). Aamof, many states in USA have special provisions that make it legal to have sex at 12 or 13 according to the situation. And, of course, we know what the age of consent in Japan is, right? The idea that sex below 18 must be outlawed is waaay minoritary in the real world.

joined Feb 8, 2016

what a heartless piece of shit person. and yes, she sullied Jinno at a young impressionable age. One cannot justify her actions by any means.

joined Feb 8, 2016

Even foregoing the age of consent argument, the woman took advantage of a confused young person then dumped her like yesterday's garbage. where is the justification for that behavior? Those of you who are only arguing that Jinno was old enough to have sex, seem to imply its Jinno's fault she was mistreated. Typical blame the victim mentality. I am a long time yuri fan and have even been known to like the occasional age gap story, BUT only if its dealt with responsibly, such as Dear My Teacher, where the student and high school nurse agree to wait until high school graduation for the student to confess.
Just because a certain country or State has an age limit for sex, that is not the only factor people should look at when considering whether to have sexual relations with a minor. And many U.S. state laws can consider sex with someone under 18, but at the age of consent, rape "if the consent is received by the child by deemed seduction or deceit." And if anyone dares argue that it was a "spur of the moment, lustful occurance" should recall that this is exactly what many rapist claim.
I am not necessarily for censorship, but readers should be responsible in what they allow children to read and there is an age of which this type of scenario should never be written of.

schuyguy Uploader
Imura%20ei%20music%20concert%20face
Yuri Project
joined Jul 14, 2016

I think Kousaka made the right decision to move away. After what she'd done, eliminating all contact was the most responsible course of action. However, I don't think we can judge her too harshly. When Jinno was a child, her judgment was that of a child. But now she's an adult (23 probably, assuming she moved to Tokyo for university), and this is how she views what happened:

I felt happiness in loving earnestly, and pleasure in being loved earnestly. When it all came to an end, I felt sadness. I felt anger. I felt hatred. And I felt pain. But now all that remains are good memories.

I've known people who pursued relationships with adults when they were 14. Now that they're adults, I can hardly tell them they were victims of sexual assault if they don't feel that way. You cannot trust a child's judgement in these matters, that's the whole reason for age of consent laws: children are not equipped to make these decisions. But adults are capable of making their own decisions, and it's never a good idea to try and tell someone else how they're supposed to feel. Clearly Kousaka was in the wrong at the time. She seduced a child. However, just like I respect a friend's opinion of something that happened to them, a reader should respect Jinno's opinion of what happened to her.

However, that's all just diegetic analysis, when perhaps the more important question is about the author. What is the author's purpose in telling this story? I dismiss out of hand any argument that this is a subject that cannot or should not be made into stories—after all, it's something that happens in real life, and thus is a fit subject for analysis, and thus a fit subject for art. But what about this particular example? This isn't really the story of a predatory adult taking advantage of a child. It's the story of a girl's sexual awakening. I think it's obvious from the structure that the author was focusing on the latter. For one thing, the story is entirely from her perspective, and the ending frames the work as the musings of an adult looking back on a formative incident in her childhood. For another, it's meant to be sexually arousing. The sex scenes are drawn very sensually, and in great detail. Also throughout, there's a major emphasis on the differences between children and adults, both in the Jinna's yearning to be an adult, and in Kousaka's obsession with girlish innocence.

In fact, what I find most curious about this work is that the author never even addresses the fact that this is a story of an adult seducing a child. The ethics or legality of Kousaka's actions are never mentioned. I'm not really sure what to make of that. It's like the author didn't even realize that this would be an issue that readers would think about while reading this work. In the end, my only conclusion is that this is not a serious piece of art. It's a semi-pornographic work in a medium known for its endless supply of mindless pulp. I don't think the author is a criminal, or a pedophile. They're just careless.

last edited at Aug 27, 2019 11:37PM

Ryuko
joined May 1, 2018

Holy f###ing sh#t that was literally rape

Ryuko
joined May 1, 2018

Holy f###ing sh#t that was literally rape

Wtf I finished it and that literally was goddamn rape and abuse holy sh#t. And when the girl was like "yo I regret all that happening, felt like i was being sullied" the woman is like "lmao nahhhh nahhh NAHHHHHH" liKE BRUH WHAT

joined Jul 23, 2017

I got confused by the adult jinno san and the old one, beautiful story but kinda weird and whats with the ending anyway

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