Wait, how come the episode is already out? Isn't it supposed to be up on the Internet around (what is for timezone UTC+1) 19h?

Yep... Let it be known... I love Sayaka!!

Sayaka may not be approachable. Where as, Touko is and that's why she gets all the confessions. But, you're right, I don't think that history has any bearing on the main story. Only one confession from Sayaka's past is important.

Oh, and the kiss between Riko and Miyako was stretched out a bit in the anime.

It's okay to love her, just don't overestimate her because of that.

There will be a second important confession soon, only this time it's the other way around haha

Stretched out, really? It was like 3 seconds. That scene was incredibly quick actually, especially compared to the train kiss from episode 2 lol

last edited at Nov 16, 2018 1:48PM

Wait, how come the episode is already out? Isn't it supposed to be up on the Internet around (what is for timezone UTC+1) 19h?

It was out around 12:30 GMT for me.

last edited at Nov 16, 2018 2:04PM

I'ma watch the episode now, but I'm gonna execute that dumb idea of mine, just for shits and giggles... So, sorry in advance...

last edited at Nov 16, 2018 2:29PM

Yep... Let it be known... I love Sayaka!!

Sayaka may not be approachable. Where as, Touko is and that's why she gets all the confessions. But, you're right, I don't think that history has any bearing on the main story. Only one confession from Sayaka's past is important.

Oh, and the kiss between Riko and Miyako was stretched out a bit in the anime.

It's okay to love her, just don't overestimate her because of that.

There will be a second important confession soon, only this time it's the other way around haha

Stretched out, really? It was like 3 seconds. That scene was incredibly quick actually, especially compared to the train kiss from episode 2 lol

hahahaha! Well, if you count their feet shot... it's a tad bit longer... but, in all fairness, I re-watched the episode and it wasn't as long as I remembered. lol

I can't help but to overestimate Sayaka. Where's her flaw? (Other than loving Touko.) She isn't the conventional antagonist, but I think we can say that we are afraid of her next step.

It's okay to love her, just don't overestimate her because of that.

There will be a second important confession soon, only this time it's the other way around haha

Stretched out, really? It was like 3 seconds. That scene was incredibly quick actually, especially compared to the train kiss from episode 2 lol

hahahaha! Well, if you count their feet shot... it's a tad bit longer... but, in all fairness, I re-watched the episode and it wasn't as long as I remembered. lol

I can't help but to overestimate Sayaka. Where's her flaw? (Other than loving Touko.) She isn't the conventional antagonist, but I think we can say that we are afraid of her next step.

Guess perception may vary, especially when you see it coming.

Her flaws, eh? She doesn't pick up on things fast enough or stays passive when she shouldn't. She gets jealous and then feels guilty about it. She supported Touko's facade, even though that might have been detrimental to her (even if it is what she "wanted to do"). Yuu figured the right solution out in a way shorter time after all. Their degree of closeness might not be comparable though.
Other than that, she is said not to remember things she doesn't have an interest in, which is generally rude when it involves people. lol
She also fronts really hard.

Well those are just minor issues and usually have a good-natured core. I think she deserves happiness more than even some other characters here~

I don't see Sayaka as an antagonist and I am not afraid of what she will do. Her next action will push the situation forward, one way or another. The one who will get hurt the most (once again) is her anyway.

Finished the first half of the season (lol)

Now that I actually finished the episode, it's time for me to leave my funnybusiness aside for a while and ACTUALLY talk about the episode. Now, I must say, the part where Miyako answered Sayaka's question on whether she was in a relationship with Riko, the silence between the question and the answer was considerably longer than what I imagined in my head reading the manga. I also like how, in the anime, they use these visuals to kinda metaphorically show the psyche of the characters in certain situations. For this episode, we saw this in the scene that showed how Touko is viewed: her and Sayaka's friendship; herself. Still, just like how I repeated in my comments about the previous episodes, I just love how they stick to the manga so much. All-in-all, a good and enjoyable episode. Also, it must be noted that Sayaka is just the perfect character for me to get an internal conflict within myself: she's the best character, and I feel sorry for her unrequited love, but I simply can't support her because of that whole thing between Yuu and Touko.

There has been a discussion about whether Touko is too manipulative or overbearing previously but, I'll just say my thoughts now. In episode 7 Touko thinks 'Yuu acting so unfazed makes me want to see how far I can push'. She then asks to be called by her first name. I think this is a great way of showing how even though Touko is selfish, she doesn't want to hurt Yuu or push too far. Not only that but last episode, Yuu literally asked Touko to be more selfish.

I watched the dub and it felt so weird. I’m not sure why, but it seems like a fandub (even though it’s not). All the VAs are great, but to me, Yuu and Touko’s voices didn’t really fit them. I always imagined Yuu with Mikoto Misaka’s voice, which is funny since that’s the VA of her black haired friend. And Zero Two’s voice (Yuu’s VA) would suit Touko better imo

last edited at Nov 17, 2018 4:28AM

This is probably going to end up long but I just need to write to explain my thinking. In the recently translated Chapter 36, it left me actually feeling scared that the relationship is going to shift from Yuu/Touko over to Sayaka/Touko and I don't entirely understand myself where it is coming from. I know the story so far has been completely surrounded around the relationship between Touko and Yuu which is originally where I thought this fear came from but as I thought about it I don't think that is the actual origin. Sayaka completely deserves the chance to have a relationship with Touko as she has been holding on to feelings for Touko for much longer than Yuu has been and she is just as capable of being a great lover for Touko as Yuu is which I think is part of it for me. The possibility is there and it both makes sense and would be deserved. I think the other part that scares me though is I myself am just like Yuu was, I don't know what "love" is. I've never felt it myself, just seen it around me and longed for it so this probably creates a connection to her for me. I started reading different kinds of romance, be it hetorosexual or yuri they are both just "love" to me. (Admittedly I've never really came to enjoy yaoi though but I think that just comes out of the nature of liking cute things rather than the nature of the relationship) This is getting on a tangent, I read them out of curiosity of what this "love" is and to find a series with a character that is the same as me I think I grew attached to Yuu and really cheered for her with full sincerity. More than just that though, I feel like Yuu (thought I guess me accurately Nakatani Noi maybe) taught me what love is. What it feels like, how it grows. I've bought the hardcopy version of the entire series so far, it is actually the first manga series I've felt like I needed to buy, and I just want Yuu to experience full requisite love. I'm sorry if anyone find this weird or confusing but I've just been confused about this feeling myself and I just wanted to write it all out. Thank you Nakatani Noi for creating such a great story if you see this.

This is probably going to end up long but I just need to write to explain my thinking. In the recently translated Chapter 36, it left me actually feeling scared that the relationship is going to shift from Yuu/Touko over to Sayaka/Touko and I don't entirely understand myself where it is coming from. I know the story so far has been completely surrounded around the relationship between Touko and Yuu which is originally where I thought this fear came from but as I thought about it I don't think that is the actual origin. Sayaka completely deserves the chance to have a relationship with Touko as she has been holding on to feelings for Touko for much longer than Yuu has been and she is just as capable of being a great lover for Touko as Yuu is which I think is part of it for me. The possibility is there and it both makes sense and would be deserved. I think the other part that scares me though is I myself am just like Yuu was, I don't know what "love" is. I've never felt it myself, just seen it around me and longed for it so this probably creates a connection to her for me. I started reading different kinds of romance, be it hetorosexual or yuri they are both just "love" to me. (Admittedly I've never really came to enjoy yaoi though but I think that just comes out of the nature of liking cute things rather than the nature of the relationship) This is getting on a tangent, I read them out of curiosity of what this "love" is and to find a series with a character that is the same as me I think I grew attached to Yuu and really cheered for her with full sincerity. More than just that though, I feel like Yuu (thought I guess me accurately Nakatani Noi maybe) taught me what love is. What it feels like, how it grows. I've bought the hardcopy version of the entire series so far, it is actually the first manga series I've felt like I needed to buy, and I just want Yuu to experience full requisite love. I'm sorry if anyone find this weird or confusing but I've just been confused about this feeling myself and I just wanted to write it all out. Thank you Nakatani Noi for creating such a great story if you see this.

Well, that's a part of the drama, isn't it? Seems you're right where you should be in the sense of this story. There's definitely differences between Yuu and Sayaka in Touko's eyes. We have to wait to see how Touko will react IF Sayaka confesses.

Does Sayaka deserve a chance with Touko? Sure, but as second place? My personal feelings, I think she deserves better. Only thing I know for sure, is that I haven't been able to guess correctly any part of this story, which makes it great.

You will get a few replies from this forum. But, if you want Nakatani to know, you should writer her directly.

This is probably going to end up long but I just need to write to explain my thinking. In the recently translated Chapter 36, it left me actually feeling scared that the relationship is going to shift from Yuu/Touko over to Sayaka/Touko and I don't entirely understand myself where it is coming from. I know the story so far has been completely surrounded around the relationship between Touko and Yuu which is originally where I thought this fear came from but as I thought about it I don't think that is the actual origin. Sayaka completely deserves the chance to have a relationship with Touko as she has been holding on to feelings for Touko for much longer than Yuu has been and she is just as capable of being a great lover for Touko as Yuu is which I think is part of it for me. The possibility is there and it both makes sense and would be deserved. I think the other part that scares me though is I myself am just like Yuu was, I don't know what "love" is. I've never felt it myself, just seen it around me and longed for it so this probably creates a connection to her for me. I started reading different kinds of romance, be it hetorosexual or yuri they are both just "love" to me. (Admittedly I've never really came to enjoy yaoi though but I think that just comes out of the nature of liking cute things rather than the nature of the relationship) This is getting on a tangent, I read them out of curiosity of what this "love" is and to find a series with a character that is the same as me I think I grew attached to Yuu and really cheered for her with full sincerity. More than just that though, I feel like Yuu (thought I guess me accurately Nakatani Noi maybe) taught me what love is. What it feels like, how it grows. I've bought the hardcopy version of the entire series so far, it is actually the first manga series I've felt like I needed to buy, and I just want Yuu to experience full requisite love. I'm sorry if anyone find this weird or confusing but I've just been confused about this feeling myself and I just wanted to write it all out. Thank you Nakatani Noi for creating such a great story if you see this.

First of all, paragraphs are your friend.

I'm not saying that to be snarky. Okay, I'm not JUST saying that to be snarky. Your comments are well thought out and your personal experience is really relevant and interesting, but it was really hard for me to read it. My eyes aren't great under the best of circumstances and having an unbroken wall of text just complicates that.

So just something for you to consider next time. ;p

As far as worrying about the main romance changing tracks, Eh, I wouldn't worry about it, and here's why:

Nakatani Nio has bills to pay. "Manga artist" is not a high-profile, luxurious career. Apart from a handful of superstars who have exceptionally marketable franchises with big licensing opportunities (coughcoughDragonballcough) Most Manga artists are shooting for a decent, middle-income lifestyle where they can have actual meals and dream of someday being popular enough to entertain the notion of retiring.

A romance comic where in the 11th hour the main protagonist drops off the map and the primary love interest goes with somebody else is not gonna sell well or lead to subsequent series offers. It's also not likely to be fulfilling for the author, because authors often sympathise with their protagonist's struggles, although they do sometimes also get a kick out of being mean to them.

Stories do not always have happy endings, but they don't usually change focus entirely at the tail end of the series.

That said, tension drives sales and makes the climax more fulfilling, so shoring up the confidence and boldness of a primary rival right before the main characters resolve their conflict and end up together is always a go-to move. Sayaka doesn't actually have a chance with Touko right now. Touko is still head over heels for Yuu. But Sayaka doesn't -know- that, so she THINKS she has a chance, which is driving her arc right now.

The fact that Sayaka is getting a spin-off light novel (and the fact that it wasn't sold up as Sayaka -and Touko- getting a spin-off light novel) also implies that there are other prospects on the horizon for her.

Edit: Oh, also, it's a little risky to say she "deserves" a chance with Touko. It makes it sound like Touko is obligated to accept and return her feelings because she was there for her and she suffered a bit along the way. Nobody is entitled to a relationship. (Not saying that's how you meant it, but it could be read that way) She deserves to be happy, because everybody does, but making that happen isn't anybody's responsibility but her own.

last edited at Nov 17, 2018 4:07PM

Typically they greenlight a season and then see how that does. If it gets good numbers, they might offer another season, but it isn't a sure thing. As such, the writers tend to plan the first season so that it has a satisfying ending even if they don't have another season.

The writers, working with Nakatani-sensei, have almost certainly structured the season on the assumption that this is their one shot. Incidental plot elements and side arcs are likely to have been cut down. I doubt we'll get, say, the bit where Koyomi goes to meet her favorite author. Some things will be cut, other bits might be expanded or changed. And that's good! An anime is digested differently from a manga. It shouldn't be scene for scene.

If we cut the plot points down to a bare minimum up to the play we got:
-Sports Festival
-Training Camp
-Summer break date
-Changing the play's script
-The play itself

If you say any of these can be cut out, you are wrong. At least if we want to keep the integrity of the source material up.
I dunno where everyone got the idea that this will be 13 episodes even though it was announced as 12, so I'll stick with the more pessimistic number for now.

I definitely didn't say any of those should be cut. In fact, I broke the rest of the episodes up in a way pretty similar to what you did below. When I talk about cutting things, I'm talking about side elements. Also you -could- cut some of those plotlines if you restructured the important elements into something else. I don't think it's necessary, but it's an option if you don't assume there's a second season coming.

We are on episode 6. Halfway done. If we had to spread those most important plot points over the remainder it would have to go something like this:
Ep.7: Sports Festival
Ep.8: Preparation for the training camp/miscallaneous stuff
Ep.9: Training Camp
Ep.10: Summer break and date
Ep.11: Yuu changing the script with Koyomi/Akari getting rejected for good (they set her character arc up so I doubt it will be ignored)
Ep.12: Somehow stuffing the entire play into one episode

This is ridiculously tight and cuts out a lot of stuff I'd like to see (Yuu vs. Sayaka confrontation, the rain chapter and Sayaka's side-quest with cafe owner and Riko-sensei), but it isn't terribly rushed. Some things like Sayaka's past or Koyomi's author date can be added in a potential second season or OVA without any connection to the timeline.

I just think that cramming it all into season 1 reduces the chances for a second season significantly. I'm one of those people who doesn't mind an open ending if the source material is there to finish it. I'd rather have a well paced and accurate first half than a crammed whole.

If there is likely to -be- a season 2, then that'd all be well and good. But you know, when I got interested in yuri anime and started really paying attention to it, you know what I kept seeing over and over?

"It's alright, but it's slow and the ending sucks."

Sasameki Koto. Aoi Hana. Sakura Trick. They all stick pretty solidly to the sequence of events in their respective manga series, and they're all kinda disappointing at the finish line. Yeah, you can go to the manga to get the rest of the story, but many people -don't-, and so they just end up being regarded as kind of disappointing non-events in the long run by many people. A lot of people -won't- check out the manga specifically -because- they found the anime disappointing.

There are various reasons to make an adaptation. One is to appease the existing fans and get money out of them, but another is to reach an audience that wouldn't see the story otherwise. If you're interested in making a work that stands up, that reaches it's own audience, sticking slavishly to the events of the books at the expense of the structure and ending of the adaptation is a mistake.

By contrast: Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid makes some small changes to story order and focuses on a different series of events from the manga. If they had done the manga scene for scene, it would have been cute and funny and I would have enjoyed it, but I wouldn't have had nearly the FEELS that I got when Kobayashi falls into heartbroken single parent mode at the end It easily transcended -and lifted up- the source material explicitly because they -didn't- just stick to the original pattern of events. They structured the season on the assumption that that was all they were getting, and they made something that drew me into a manga that I honestly would have just passed by entirely.

So while I get the desire the fans have to see a faithful and precise adaptation scene by scene and then have a second season that carries us through to the finish line, unless a two-season deal was discussed as likely from the start, I think that'd be a mistake. The -entire structure of the season- is about building up to the play. If we never get there, most people aren't going to get to the end, and go 'Oh, I guess I'll read the manga now,' They're going to go 'What? We don't even get to see the play? How diappointing.'

And then they'll go watch Citrus or something.

If there is likely to -be- a season 2, then that'd all be well and good. But you know, when I got interested in yuri anime and started really paying attention to it, you know what I kept seeing over and over?

"It's alright, but it's slow and the ending sucks."

Sasameki Koto. Aoi Hana. Sakura Trick. They all stick pretty solidly to the sequence of events in their respective manga series, and they're all kinda disappointing at the finish line. Yeah, you can go to the manga to get the rest of the story, but many people -don't-, and so they just end up being regarded as kind of disappointing non-events in the long run by many people. A lot of people -won't- check out the manga specifically -because- they found the anime disappointing.

There are various reasons to make an adaptation. One is to appease the existing fans and get money out of them, but another is to reach an audience that wouldn't see the story otherwise. If you're interested in making a work that stands up, that reaches it's own audience, sticking slavishly to the events of the books at the expense of the structure and ending of the adaptation is a mistake.

By contrast: Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid makes some small changes to story order and focuses on a different series of events from the manga. If they had done the manga scene for scene, it would have been cute and funny and I would have enjoyed it, but I wouldn't have had nearly the FEELS that I got when Kobayashi falls into heartbroken single parent mode at the end It easily transcended -and lifted up- the source material explicitly because they -didn't- just stick to the original pattern of events. They structured the season on the assumption that that was all they were getting, and they made something that drew me into a manga that I honestly would have just passed by entirely.

So while I get the desire the fans have to see a faithful and precise adaptation scene by scene and then have a second season that carries us through to the finish line, unless a two-season deal was discussed as likely from the start, I think that'd be a mistake. The -entire structure of the season- is about building up to the play. If we never get there, most people aren't going to get to the end, and go 'Oh, I guess I'll read the manga now,' They're going to go 'What? We don't even get to see the play? How diappointing.'

And then they'll go watch Citrus or something.

So much wrong, so little time...

First of all what you describe has nothing to do with Yuri. Period. All genres have these adaptation "issues" you speak of.
Secondly, no that is not why these adaptations are made. Sure, there might be 2 or 3 of those out there, but that's never the point and never will be the point of these kinds of anime adaptations. They exist as promotion for the manga, nothing else. You will have to accept this. Far more people start to read the manga because the anime ended on a cliffhanger, rather than being put off by it. If the anime has a completely satisfying ending, then that will undoubtedly lead to less people checking out the manga, that's simple psychology, but that doesn't mean the anime has to be bad for it. Taking your original route or ending is ballsy and turns out terrible 90% of the time. So forgive me if I don't have any love for that approach.

Kobayashi might have changed the order a bit, but it didn't change the events. And more importantly Kobayashi doesn't have a rigid story structure. It is very slice-of-life allowing for easy interchanging. Yagate Kimi ni Naru is not like that in the slightest.
Also, they blew up an event that was not quite as dramatic to make it a finale, but why is that better than what we could have gotten instead? There are quite a few emotional moments in the manga that could have served as great finales as well. Sorry, but you are just saying "I liked that, so it was the best move" lol

That's your very self-centered presumption, sorry to say. Again, it works, that is why the studios do it. People do want to know what happens next, especially if the anime was interesting, which is more guaranteed if they actually stick to the same quality as the source material.
The story builds up to the play, but there are several levels of subplots involved and ultimately the play is just a means to an end. The emotional weight of Yuu's decision can carry the finale easily. I want to see the shallow audience that would not be interested to read the manga after that scene. If they exist, then they can pray for a second season and if they don't get it and still dont want to read the manga, they didn't care enough anyway.

last edited at Nov 17, 2018 5:14PM

So much wrong, so little time...

First of all what you describe has nothing to do with Yuri. Period. All genres have these adaptation "issues" you speak of.

Correct. Did I say it was exclusively about yuri? No I did not.

Secondly, no that is not why these adaptations are made.

"There are various reasons to make an adaptation" I didn't say all adaptations are made for the reason to reach a new audience, but-

Sure, there might be 2 or 3 of those out there, but that's never the point and never will be the point of these kinds of anime adaptations. They exist as promotion for the manga, nothing else.

(stares)

Okay, I know I'm being an asshole about this, but...

(just stares) Are you HIGH?

You will have to accept this. Far more people start to read the manga because the anime ended on a cliffhanger, rather than being put off by it. If the anime has a completely satisfying ending, then that will undoubtedly lead to less people checking out the manga, that's simple psychology, but that doesn't mean the anime has to be bad for it. Taking your original route or ending is ballsy and turns out terrible 90% of the time. So forgive me if I don't have any love for that approach.

The suggestion that the anime exists as basically a glorified advertisement for the manga is comically hilarious. These shows cost millions of dollars to produce and require the creative efforts of numerous professionals. They are produced by companies that license the property from the manga creator and the producers of the anime get no benefit from increased sales of the manga. They're in it for advertising revenue and disc sales, -maybe- merchandising rights. Selling extra books gains the studio nothing, so why exactly do you think they PAY THE AUTHOR for the rights to use their story? Because they plan to make money. Off the -anime-.

You are so astonishingly wrong about this that I find it hard to believe you're even being serious.

Let me explain how this process works. You don't have to take my word for it, feel free to look into it yourself.

An anime company sees a property that has some popularity and approaches the rights owner, usually the artist in the case of a manga. They -give them money- for the opportunity to license their story and characters into an anime. They then produce the anime at significant expense, with or without the author's input in accordance with whatever all parties agreed to. The goal of the anime company here is to make back their investment plus profits, so they air the show on TV and they sell discs of it. I have never heard of an animation studio getting any kind of residuals or bonuses if the manga sales pick up afterwards.

Selling additional manga is certainly a motivation for the author to give the company permission to make the anime, but the production company itself doesn't see any of that. So no, their goal is not to sell the manga and nothing more.

Kobayashi might have changed the order a bit, but it didn't change the events. And more importantly Kobayashi doesn't have a rigid story structure. It is very slice-of-life allowing for easy interchanging. Yagate Kimi ni Naru is not like that in the slightest.
Also, they blew up an event that was not quite as dramatic to make it a finale, but why is that better than what we could have gotten instead? There are quite a few emotional moments in the manga that could have served as great finales as well. Sorry, but you are just saying "I liked that, so it was the best move" lol

Yeah, that is pretty much entirely my point. They made something I like better by modifying it to suit the format in which it was being released. Pretty much all discussion we could have here is subjective unless we want to go digging into sales figures or whatever.

That's your very self-centered presumption, sorry to say.

We're -all- expressing our opinions here, mate, spare me your faux moral superiority as you proceed to talk like yours plopped directly from the asshole of God almighty.

Again, it works, that is why the studios do it. People do want to know what happens next, especially if the anime was interesting, which is more guaranteed if they actually stick to the same quality as the source material.

Numerous creators disagree with you. The question of how closely to stick to source material in an adaptation is a contentious one, but almost anybody that actually does this stuff for a living will tell you that some changes basically need to happen. Hell, in THIS case, changes have already happened, they've just been minor ones.

The story builds up to the play, but there are several levels of subplots involved and ultimately the play is just a means to an end. The emotional weight of Yuu's decision can carry the finale easily. I want to see the shallow audience that would not be interested to read the manga after that scene. If they exist, then they can pray for a second season and if they don't get it and still dont want to read the manga, they didn't care enough anyway.

The point isn't that they're not interested to read the manga after that scene. The point is they were watching the anime, and if the anime doesn't have a satisfying ending, it disappoints people. Even if they ARE interested in seeing the manga, the fact that the anime has a disappointing ending can still be frustrating for people. Like I said, I'm not just pulling this from nowhere. I have consistently seen these kind of complaints about anime series that stuck slavishly to the source material and then end abruptly without resolution.

My point is that spending time building up an event you never intend to show makes the work unsatisfying. If the manga had ended at the point in the series you're suggesting they end the anime, Everybody in this comment section would have exploded with rage and grief. We'd be bitching about the amputated school play arc in comment threads on totally different series. Reasonable odds it'd become a MEME.

What I am saying is that the anime, -as an independent work-, would be better if they structured it to end with the play than if they make the play a big deal for the entire series and then never show it.

If you don't care about the anime as an independent work, that's fine. That's your opinion. I do. I think every work should be satisfying as a work in itself, and it would be a shame if this one wasn't "finished" or didn't end at a satisfying point.

Correct. Did I say it was exclusively about yuri? No I did not.

You did put it specifically in the context of yuri anime. I guess that doesn't make it exclusive, but it's odd to do it if that wasn't part of your point. Alright then.

"There are various reasons to make an adaptation" I didn't say all adaptations are made for the reason to reach a new audience, but-

Sure, there might be 2 or 3 of those out there, but that's never the point and never will be the point of these kinds of anime adaptations. They exist as promotion for the manga, nothing else.

(stares)

Okay, I know I'm being an asshole about this, but...

(just stares) Are you HIGH?

You certainly are being an asshole about this. lol

You will have to accept this. Far more people start to read the manga because the anime ended on a cliffhanger, rather than being put off by it. If the anime has a completely satisfying ending, then that will undoubtedly lead to less people checking out the manga, that's simple psychology, but that doesn't mean the anime has to be bad for it. Taking your original route or ending is ballsy and turns out terrible 90% of the time. So forgive me if I don't have any love for that approach.

The suggestion that the anime exists as basically a glorified advertisement for the manga is comically hilarious. These shows cost millions of dollars to produce and require the creative efforts of numerous professionals. They are produced by companies that license the property from the manga creator and the producers of the anime get no benefit from increased sales of the manga. They're in it for advertising revenue and disc sales, -maybe- merchandising rights. Selling extra books gains the studio nothing, so why exactly do you think they PAY THE AUTHOR for the rights to use their story? Because they plan to make money. Off the -anime-.

You are so astonishingly wrong about this that I find it hard to believe you're even being serious.

Let me explain how this process works. You don't have to take my word for it, feel free to look into it yourself.

An anime company sees a property that has some popularity and approaches the rights owner, usually the artist in the case of a manga. They -give them money- for the opportunity to license their story and characters into an anime. They then produce the anime at significant expense, with or without the author's input in accordance with whatever all parties agreed to. The goal of the anime company here is to make back their investment plus profits, so they air the show on TV and they sell discs of it. I have never heard of an animation studio getting any kind of residuals or bonuses if the manga sales pick up afterwards.

Selling additional manga is certainly a motivation for the author to give the company permission to make the anime, but the production company itself doesn't see any of that. So no, their goal is not to sell the manga and nothing more.

And here lies the issue with your entire argument. You don't understand the anime and manga industry, very clearly.
The magazines that publish the manga are the ones who hire a studio to make the anime in 7/10 cases. So there is no licensing issue. Most anime do not cost millions of dollars. Especially the 12 episode format, which is specifically made for the reason of advertising the manga and gaining a larger audience for it. (Of course with long running Shounen anime like One Piece it's a two-way beneficial situation where the anime gets more manga readers and the manga gets more anime watchers in tandem over a long time).

No doubt they make bank on the Blue-ray sales and ad revenue themselves, otherwise that wouldn't be very profitable overall, but you really miss the point of why most anime adapation of Light Novels and manga are made. I never said the studio doesn't want to profit on their own, that's a given obviously.

The magazine (not the author) is the main instance that profits of this deal and that's why in the cases you mentioned of the studio apporaching them, they agree almost every time. Mangaka are basically shackled and bound by their publishers and editors. They don't have much say in anything.

Yeah, that is pretty much entirely my point. They made something I like better by modifying it to suit the format in which it was being released. Pretty much all discussion we could have here is subjective unless we want to go digging into sales figures or whatever.

Then don't make it seem like it is a legitimate support for your argument? lol

We're -all- expressing our opinions here, mate, spare me your faux moral superiority as you proceed to talk like yours plopped directly from the asshole of God almighty.

I don't care about morals. I am saying you are looking at this with tunnel vision from your personal preferences.

Numerous creators disagree with you. The question of how closely to stick to source material in an adaptation is a contentious one, but almost anybody that actually does this stuff for a living will tell you that some changes basically need to happen. Hell, in THIS case, changes have already happened, they've just been minor ones.

Yes, because directors and story-boarders want to express themselves, which is completely fine. I am not against that on principle. You need to make changes to fit the medium better, but altering the story is not a necessary step at all. That's either a constraint of the source material or the studio opting for a "complete" feeling as you mentioned before, but it is usually just as weak as a cliffhanger ending.
I hope you don't somehow think I hate changes in general for some reason.

The point isn't that they're not interested to read the manga after that scene. The point is they were watching the anime, and if the anime doesn't have a satisfying ending, it disappoints people. Even if they ARE interested in seeing the manga, the fact that the anime has a disappointing ending can still be frustrating for people. Like I said, I'm not just pulling this from nowhere. I have consistently seen these kind of complaints about anime series that stuck slavishly to the source material and then end abruptly without resolution.

My point is that spending time building up an event you never intend to show makes the work unsatisfying. If the manga had ended at the point in the series you're suggesting they end the anime, Everybody in this comment section would have exploded with rage and grief. We'd be bitching about the amputated school play arc in comment threads on totally different series. Reasonable odds it'd become a MEME.

What I am saying is that the anime, -as an independent work-, would be better if they structured it to end with the play than if they make the play a big deal for the entire series and then never show it.

If you don't care about the anime as an independent work, that's fine. That's your opinion. I do. I think every work should be satisfying as a work in itself, and it would be a shame if this one wasn't "finished" or didn't end at a satisfying point.

And I have consistently seen the opposite as well. Do you know how many hundreds of people ask "Which chapter did the anime end on? I want to keep reading. I want to see what happens next!"? Heck they already do that halfway through sometimes, because they can't wait for the weekly releases.
The thing is, while both exist, your focus doesn't matter. If someone gets so turned off by a cliffhanger/open ending that they don't want to read the source material, they simply didn't care enough. That's their issue. They got the perfect set-up and that's all they deserve.

There is no amputation, because it isn't cut out. It still happens, just in the continuation of the story, which might or might not be in a season 2, but certainly in the manga. An actual amputation is to cut off something important or good from the source material for the sake of time. It ruins the story far more and the people who read the manga afterwards will feel that it was awful to have been cut out. You must be thinking pretty niche if you believe this would be able to spawn any memes lol
In a way all romance anime suffer this to a degree. They all build up to the confession or whatever and then don't deliver 80% of the time. But you know it will happen if you keep reading the manga. Having the play be build up doesn't mean we need to see it in the anime. That is a background plot point which carries the actually important character arcs.

The anime cannot be an independant work in this case. The decision was made to stick close to the source material. And even if it wasn't, YagaKimi doesn't lend itself to alterations like that. The balance between characters and development is very fragile. I can guarantee you that almost any alteration would be worse than the manga. And sure, anime only people might never know that, but why should the fans who made this anime possible suffer for the newcomers' satisfaction?

Most readers are satisfied to see their favorite manga be done justice and animated at all. They don't feel this lack of satisfaction, becaue they know what happens next. The newcomers might feel disatsifed at first, but it's in their own power to change that, unlike if the adaptation was altered and butchered.

last edited at Nov 18, 2018 4:15AM

giggles quietly in the distance

giggles quietly in the distance

?
Edit:
Nevermind it's BV

last edited at Nov 18, 2018 3:22PM

I just saw episode 7. Great that they're keeping so much of the digressive scenery instead of trimming things close. At this speed the play is episode 16 or something like that...

last edited at Nov 18, 2018 4:21PM

@BugDevil While I agree that the people who care enough will probably read the manga anyway, it's still frustrating that more and more anime are doomed to cover only a fraction of the original story… Anime and manga are different formats that offer different experiences, so people who enjoy anime more get the short end of the stick in those cases… Of course that's kind of inevitable when the original story is so long that you'd need 10 seasons of anime to adapt it fully, but in the case of YagaKimi where two seasons would probably suffice (after the manga is over, obviously), that would be a shame. Hopefully it has enough success for that.

But as you said, altering the story to have a conclusion rarely leads to good results, so it's a tough dilemma…

ALT ENDING FOR SAYAKA OR RIOT

I'm setting aside the rest of this because what changes should or shouldn't be made and why is just a matter of preference and opinion and I can agree to disagree on all of that.

But you are 100% factually wrong about how anime adaptations are made.

Selling additional manga is certainly a motivation for the author to give the company permission to make the anime, but the production company itself doesn't see any of that. So no, their goal is not to sell the manga and nothing more.

And here lies the issue with your entire argument. You don't understand the anime and manga industry, very clearly.
The magazines that publish the manga are the ones who hire a studio to make the anime in 7/10 cases. So there is no licensing issue. Most anime do not cost millions of dollars. Especially the 12 episode format, which is specifically made for the reason of advertising the manga and gaining a larger audience for it. (Of course with long running Shounen anime like One Piece it's a two-way beneficial situation where the anime gets more manga readers and the manga gets more anime watchers in tandem over a long time).

You're either gonna have to cite sources on that 7/10 thing or admit you just pulled it straight out of your ass.

A typical 13 episode anime series costs from 1 to 4 million dollars. I base this on numerous comments I've seen from several creators, but here's a specific link to a specific quote saying 2 million is typical. Longer seasons are more expensive, i picked the 1-4 range because that's what Yagakimi almost certainly cost.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2015-08-13/anime-insiders-share-how-much-producing-a-season-costs/.91536

Hell, just pay attention to the freaking credits of any anime series! You'll have dozens if not hundreds of people credited with the production, from animators and editors to composers and voice actors. These people work for salary or on contract, depending on the job, and an anime studio like Troyca produces at max of two series a year, meaning at least half their salary comes from a single series. Do the math. They'll cut corners where they can, but anime is still a large cooperative venture involving many employees. The amount of labor involved in producing even a low budget anime is nuts.

The 13 episode format has been standard in anime for years, and has often been used even in circumstances when there /was no manga/. It has nothing to do with "advertising the manga and gaining a larger audience for it", it's about limiting the exposure and expense and reducing the risk on titles that might not find a solid audience. 13 episodes is a smaller commitment than 26+, and is one of the options pursued by companies when they want to see if a product can fly. Smaller commitment means less expense which means less risk.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2016-09-26/.106891

Here's a pretty decent summary of how it came about, also discussing the process.

Manga publishers do not -hire- anime studios to produce anime as commercials. That is -laughable-. Anime studios approach manga publishers about properties they think would fill a niche in their programming. What's more, the studio fronts all the money of production and -pays- the manga company for the licensing rights. Every time. I challenge you to find one instance of an anime that was commissioned by the manga publisher. Find me one source. I'll wait.

No doubt they make bank on the Blue-ray sales and ad revenue themselves, otherwise that wouldn't be very profitable overall, but you really miss the point of why most anime adaptation of Light Novels and manga are made. I never said the studio doesn't want to profit on their own, that's a given obviously.

" They exist as promotion for the manga, nothing else." That's your words, exactly. If they want to profit on their own, then they aren't just promotion for the manga.

Producers choose manga or light novels based on their popularity because a popular series brings with it an automatic audience. Publishers do not choose anime producers, it's literally the other way around. When you said that remarkable 7/10 line earlier, it actually made me question my understanding, so I looked around, and just no. Every source I found confirms this is how it works. The production company decides what they want to make, then goes about trying to convince the manga publisher and the author to sign on and license the rights to them.

The magazine (not the author) is the main instance that profits of this deal and that's why in the cases you mentioned of the studio apporaching them, they agree almost every time. Mangaka are basically shackled and bound by their publishers and editors. They don't have much say in anything.

That depends on the author and the publisher. The more established a person's name, the more pull they have because the producers know that the author has clout with the fans. Also authors are more likely to retain the copyright on their work and characters compared to western comics. Authors usually agree every time because being chosen to have an anime made of your series is a huge honor and a big financial opportunity. They absolutely have a say, however, if they piss off their publisher, they could find themselves without one. But that isn't the point.

The point is the producers pick the series they want to adapt (or the original pitches they want to produce) and they approach the author through the publisher. In a lot of cases, these companies have existing relationships, either through past business dealings or through corperate connections. The details get complicated and case-by case, but in any event, the producers always intend to make their money back on the anime. The sales boost to the manga is a benefit to the manga publisher and the author, but isn't generally the concern of the anime producers (except in that it motivates them to agree to the deal)

last edited at Nov 19, 2018 12:22AM

Hey folks, some of the illustratotion of the light novel has been update.
Sayaka you poor child, she just can't take a break
https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4304585793817296

@BugDevil While I agree that the people who care enough will probably read the manga anyway, it's still frustrating that more and more anime are doomed to cover only a fraction of the original story… Anime and manga are different formats that offer different experiences, so people who enjoy anime more get the short end of the stick in those cases… Of course that's kind of inevitable when the original story is so long that you'd need 10 seasons of anime to adapt it fully, but in the case of YagaKimi where two seasons would probably suffice (after the manga is over, obviously), that would be a shame. Hopefully it has enough success for that.

But as you said, altering the story to have a conclusion rarely leads to good results, so it's a tough dilemma…

You are right of course. It's not like I want it to end prematurely. This conversation is entirely based on the idea that there won't be a season 2. If there is, no problems would exist. So I really hope for that too!

I'm setting aside the rest of this because what changes should or shouldn't be made and why is just a matter of preference and opinion and I can agree to disagree on all of that.

Oh how gracious of you.

You're either gonna have to cite sources on that 7/10 thing or admit you just pulled it straight out of your ass.

A typical 13 episode anime series costs from 1 to 4 million dollars. I base this on numerous comments I've seen from several creators, but here's a specific link to a specific quote saying 2 million is typical. Longer seasons are more expensive, i picked the 1-4 range because that's what Yagakimi almost certainly cost.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2015-08-13/anime-insiders-share-how-much-producing-a-season-costs/.91536

Hell, just pay attention to the freaking credits of any anime series! You'll have dozens if not hundreds of people credited with the production, from animators and editors to composers and voice actors. These people work for salary or on contract, depending on the job, and an anime studio like Troyca produces at max of two series a year, meaning at least half their salary comes from a single series. Do the math. They'll cut corners where they can, but anime is still a large cooperative venture involving many employees. The amount of labor involved in producing even a low budget anime is nuts.

The 13 episode format has been standard in anime for years, and has often been used even in circumstances when there /was no manga/. It has nothing to do with "advertising the manga and gaining a larger audience for it", it's about limiting the exposure and expense and reducing the risk on titles that might not find a solid audience. 13 episodes is a smaller commitment than 26+, and is one of the options pursued by companies when they want to see if a product can fly. Smaller commitment means less expense which means less risk.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2016-09-26/.106891

Here's a pretty decent summary of how it came about, also discussing the process.

Manga publishers do not -hire- anime studios to produce anime as commercials. That is -laughable-. Anime studios approach manga publishers about properties they think would fill a niche in their programming. What's more, the studio fronts all the money of production and -pays- the manga company for the licensing rights. Every time. I challenge you to find one instance of an anime that was commissioned by the manga publisher. Find me one source. I'll wait.

It was just a rough estimate based on how many properties are advertisement, mostly for game, Light Novel and manga based anime. There are obviously cases of the studio approaching the publisher or original anime being made or some director who wants to revive an old franchise (Thank you David Pro for doing Jojo justice!). I wasn't actually basing it on any real numbers.

"Typical" is a pretty loose term, you know? Most anime productions are as cheap as possible. If you throw in all the high quality properties, no wonder you will end up at that 4 million average. We aren't talking about Attack on Titan levels of porudction value here (because the budget for those episodes makes my legs go weak).
I haven't even implied once that YagaKimi was cheaply made though. So don't put words into my mouth please.

No shit the 12-13 episode method is there to cut costs and play it safe. I didn't mean it was invented for advertising purposes, I meant that it's used for that a lot. Making one short season of a popular property to see if it's profitable is standard practice. The initiators are often not the studios though. I think we are fundamentally thinking of different things when using the word "hire". I didn't mean the publisher pays for the entire endeavor or something, I meant the publisher chooses the studio and makes the offer. Scouts work in both directions.

It's so common for publishers of games, LNs and manga to approach studios as its beneficial for both sides, but I am not even gonna bother. The anime works as an advertisment for the manga (whether that is the only reason or not to you) and that's pretty much a fact. This is way too much work for such a trite point. You already ignored almost everything I said, so my motivation is on the down low to actually work myself through all the production history research.

" They exist as promotion for the manga, nothing else." That's your words, exactly. If they want to profit on their own, then they aren't just promotion for the manga.

Producers choose manga or light novels based on their popularity because a popular series brings with it an automatic audience. Publishers do not choose anime producers, it's literally the other way around. When you said that remarkable 7/10 line earlier, it actually made me question my understanding, so I looked around, and just no. Every source I found confirms this is how it works. The production company decides what they want to make, then goes about trying to convince the manga publisher and the author to sign on and license the rights to them.

That depends on the author and the publisher. The more established a person's name, the more pull they have because the producers know that the author has clout with the fans. Also authors are more likely to retain the copyright on their work and characters compared to western comics. Authors usually agree every time because being chosen to have an anime made of your series is a huge honor and a big financial opportunity. They absolutely have a say, however, if they piss off their publisher, they could find themselves without one. But that isn't the point.

The point is the producers pick the series they want to adapt (or the original pitches they want to produce) and they approach the author through the publisher. In a lot of cases, these companies have existing relationships, either through past business dealings or through corperate connections. The details get complicated and case-by case, but in any event, the producers always intend to make their money back on the anime. The sales boost to the manga is a benefit to the manga publisher and the author, but isn't generally the concern of the anime producers (except in that it motivates them to agree to the deal)

Welp, I guess you missed the part where I said for the manga... as in the manga publisher uses it as an advertisment and nothing else. That the studio who makes it isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart, but to make profit is plainly obvious...

Mangaka have very little influence on what's done with their work, don't kid yourself. The only ones who could have that kind of sway are titans like Eiichiro Oda or Masashi Kishimoto (or self-published people like Araki). Heck, Tite Kubo who was for a time one of the Big 3 Mangaka was completely screwed over and kicked down by his publisher and everyone involved. I wonder where he had any say in anything there?
Having an anime of your series done badly is not much of an honor and equals throwing away your integrity for money. And mangaka have to do that, because they don't earn much in the first place. This honor stuff annoys me, considering the conditions they are living in... they realistically just don't have the option to refuse.

PS: We are really far away from the actual topic now and the mods are gonna jump on us soon, so let's try to focus on YagaKimi here, shall we?