Forum › Bloom Into You discussion

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

One of my favorite things is the stone path across the river where Yuu commits to the relationship with Touko, and later where she gives her confession. because of the construction of the path, it both provides a connection between them and separates them. It limits how close they can get to each other without risk, but it also provides a way for them to approach each other. In the confession scene, Yuu is forced to throw Touko literally off balance in order to get close enough to initiate a kiss. It both acts as a symbol and restricts the blocking of the scene in ways that compliment the relationship.

That is a good one, although I’d probably consider it as more of a parallel or analogue than a full-fledged symbol (or, put another way, more on the concrete end of the symbol spectrum than the abstract one).

As you say, Touko is both physically and emotionally knocked off balance by the same action, so there’s very little conceptual difference between the two aspects that readers need to supply.

The ducks, on the other hand, really do stand in for Touko and Yuu and their relationship, although there’s nothing innately duck-like about the characters. So to perceive that equivalence requires more interpretation of first Touko’s reaction when she sees the duck-couple and later of Sayaka’s thought process as she watches the ducks while pondering her lost opportunity with Touko.

And this is of course rank speculation, of course, but that particular staging you mention strikes me as the kind of thing that need not be fully intentional in every detail (that is, Nakatani saying to herself, “OK, I need to put them down in one of those culverts so those stepping-stone paths can symbolize the connection/separation of the two characters, so then I can have a second scene where Yuu has to try to stand on the same stone as Touko, etc., etc. etc.”), but just more like “this feels right—it works,” at least initially.

(I don’t know how people feel about reading these wallso’text, but if I didn’t write them I’d never experience the pleasure of writing phrases like:

“there’s nothing innately duck-like about [Yuu and Touko],”

and my world would feel smaller and more impoverished as a result.)

last edited at Feb 6, 2019 9:36PM

Hanging%20chito%20ava
joined Dec 18, 2016

And this is of course rank speculation, of course, but that particular staging you mention strikes me as the kind of thing that need not be fully intentional in every detail (that is, Nakatani saying to herself, “OK, I need to put them down in one of those culverts so those stepping-stone paths can symbolize the connection/separation of the two characters, so then I can have a second scene where Yuu has to try to stand on the same stone as Touko, etc., etc. etc.”), but just more like “this feels right—it works,” at least initially.

I beg to differ. That entire scene is dissectible panel by panel & same goes with its parallel in ch 34. There's a reason why it was given the amount of attention it did in the anime (which some already did frame by frame analyses on). I'd love to break it down but that'll take a while & I currently don't have the time yet.

last edited at Feb 6, 2019 10:19PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

And this is of course rank speculation, of course, but that particular staging you mention strikes me as the kind of thing that need not be fully intentional in every detail (that is, Nakatani saying to herself, “OK, I need to put them down in one of those culverts so those stepping-stone paths can symbolize the connection/separation of the two characters, so then I can have a second scene where Yuu has to try to stand on the same stone as Touko, etc., etc. etc.”), but just more like “this feels right—it works,” at least initially.

I beg to differ. That entire scene is dissectible panel by panel & same goes with its parallel in ch 34. There's a reason why it was given the amount of attention it did in the anime (which some already did frame by frame analyses on). I'd love to break it down but that'll take a while & I currently don't have the time yet.

Well, that’s why I started with a caveat, and said “initially” at the end. That is, that first scene could theoretically take place in any number of those “public but private” locations I mentioned. (I could imagine that chapter 10 scene returning to the nearby “ambush kiss” train crossing and having a train separate (temporarily) the two when Touko marches off after her “the play is happening” ultimatum). But I certainly could be completely wrong about how it came about.

It’s just that most of the fiction writers and cartoonists I’ve talked to personally don’t tend to start by consciously choosing from an array of possible symbols or meaningful settings but by starting down one possible path and discovering either that more and more elements fall into place with what they’re doing (“it works”) or it else doesn’t pan out and they have to back out and try something else. (In one example from a prose writer, an image that seemed to be the central idea that held everything together—and even supplied the title—was one of the last parts they came up with, after trying several really different things.)

Captureefef
joined Mar 16, 2018

I won't comment on whether the leaf actually represents love or not since that one isn't as obvious so the meaning is more speculative. However, I do want to point out that the use of autumn as the backdrop to emphasize the theme of change is most likely intentional on Nakatani's part. Even back in ch 34, this page specifically, the connection is established. What Touko said in the original Japanese is "I like autumn, wouldn't it be nice if we could remain in this kind of season forever?" It very much parallels her wish for their relationship to not change as she later expressed here. But we know how that went. Their relationship changes for good after Yuu's confession & now, here we are in ch 38, still contemplating about changes in autumn.

Yeah, I didn't even get into intra-textual pattern formations (a lot of us have been calling them "callbacks" at various points).

There's also the "shots of legs and feet on the way to and from big confrontation scenes" thing--we should have known as soon as we saw Touko wearing trainers (like Yuu in Chapter 34) and Sayaka with clunkier shoes (penny loafers, I think) that Touko was going to (figuratively) run away. lol

One of my favorite things is the stone path across the river where Yuu commits to the relationship with Touko, and later where she gives her confession. because of the construction of the path, it both provides a connection between them and separates them. It limits how close they can get to each other without risk, but it also provides a way for them to approach each other. In the confession scene, Yuu is forced to throw Touko literally off balance in order to get close enough to initiate a kiss. It both acts as a symbol and restricts the blocking of the scene in ways that compliment the relationship.

Once the the whole thing's finished, oh, the walls of text we shall have!

But then...where will we go after that?

(for the paranoid among you, no, that does not mean I'm contemplating suicide. ;p )

Paranoid who’s paranoid?

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

I won't comment on whether the leaf actually represents love or not since that one isn't as obvious so the meaning is more speculative. However, I do want to point out that the use of autumn as the backdrop to emphasize the theme of change is most likely intentional on Nakatani's part. Even back in ch 34, this page specifically, the connection is established. What Touko said in the original Japanese is "I like autumn, wouldn't it be nice if we could remain in this kind of season forever?" It very much parallels her wish for their relationship to not change as she later expressed here. But we know how that went. Their relationship changes for good after Yuu's confession & now, here we are in ch 38, still contemplating about changes in autumn.

Yeah, I didn't even get into intra-textual pattern formations (a lot of us have been calling them "callbacks" at various points).

There's also the "shots of legs and feet on the way to and from big confrontation scenes" thing--we should have known as soon as we saw Touko wearing trainers (like Yuu in Chapter 34) and Sayaka with clunkier shoes (penny loafers, I think) that Touko was going to (figuratively) run away. lol

One of my favorite things is the stone path across the river where Yuu commits to the relationship with Touko, and later where she gives her confession. because of the construction of the path, it both provides a connection between them and separates them. It limits how close they can get to each other without risk, but it also provides a way for them to approach each other. In the confession scene, Yuu is forced to throw Touko literally off balance in order to get close enough to initiate a kiss. It both acts as a symbol and restricts the blocking of the scene in ways that compliment the relationship.

Once the the whole thing's finished, oh, the walls of text we shall have!

But then...where will we go after that?

(for the paranoid among you, no, that does not mean I'm contemplating suicide. ;p )

Paranoid who’s paranoid?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFYN4JFb/Capturefgfdgdfg.png)

NO, DON'T DO IT.

last edited at Feb 7, 2019 2:14PM by Nezchan

Senjougahara_sama
Rowow
joined Jun 12, 2017

Sorry Sayaka, boat wasn't gay enough.

Cat%202
joined Jun 5, 2015

Heavensrun posted:

On the topic of "professional vs fan translations". We got first volume released here and they made a blatant mistranslation, which changes context quite a bit. And of course there is no option to release fixed version. The advantage of digital translations you can always update.

What is the mistranslation, out of curiosity?

Chapter 3, page 28
Our translation:
"Why did she say that is enough?"
"She is"
"such a liar."
Actual line:
"So why did I tell her I don't mind?"
"... This really is."
"unfair of her."

It implies Yuu saw through Touko's facade as soon as chapter 3.

I know it doesn't really seem like much, but it isn't even like translator tried to convey the same meaning by using different words or thought that it would sound more natural. It is blatantly just changing what character said to something else, because they thought it sounded better or whatever reason for it was. And even if Yuu did see through Touko already back then, that is not what original text said. Sure I'm more for faithful translations in general, but I understand that sometimes you have to change some stuff and what or how you need to change is very subjective and hard. This on the other hand is just a very simple sentence that was changed for no other reason that "I felt like it." And stuff like that make me lose trust in translation and get paranoid how many other little changes like that that are there.

Btw. Whenever I find stuff like that, it reminds me of guys like you, who overanalyze every single line and craft meanings and theories from them, while all this time they could be mistranslated or rewritten (and some translations here actually have this issue).

Since I'm already writing, on topic on symbolize and whatnot. I personally prefer to avoid deriving meanings etc. from symbols and outside influences, unless author is blatantly referring to them and/or clearly builds a connection. I'm much more in favor of theming and building own icons and symbols, than just blatantly borrows them from other sources. And sure, they can use existing symbols, but they should still properly integrate them into the story instead of just expecting people to know them already and draw the connection. And yea, sure, stuff can have deeper meaning, the way scene is set etc. can also be meaningful, but sometimes you need to know when to stop and see that boat is just there so they can have some privacy. Or because Nakatani got tired of drawing backgrounds.

I guess our school system just totally burned me for any interpretations etc. of literature/poetry, using general symbols and meanings, because all I was ever taught was that there is no room for interpretation. Author always means it only 1 way and any other interpretation is wrong. Even if author themselves disagree with what our teachers think the interpretation of their work is. Also you need to follow the right steps in interpreting their works. After all there is only 1 proper way to arrive at the conclusions you will arrive, because there is no other conclusions to arrive at other than the right ones.

last edited at Feb 9, 2019 10:01PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I guess our school system just totally burned me for any interpretations etc. of literature/poetry, using general symbols and meanings, because all I was ever taught was that there is no room for interpretation. Author always means it only 1 way and any other interpretation is wrong. Even if author themselves disagree with what our teachers think the interpretation of their work is. Also you need to follow the right steps in interpreting their works. After all there is only 1 proper way to arrive at the conclusions you will arrive, because there is no other conclusions to arrive at other than the right ones.

Wow, that is a truly terrible theory of interpretation to teach people. If it were true, that would make most art and literature a mere parlor game, where the audience was supposed to guess the one true meaning, or a form of perverse communication, where the artist had one thing to say but buried it under a bunch of coded symbols so people would know they were supposed to receive a message but rarely if ever understand what the message was.

Art does many things, but one thing it can do is to create a kind of analogue to human experience, where meaning is bound by context (authorial intention being one aspect of context) but relevant context is (potentially) boundless.

And insisting on “one true meaning” when looking at works from a culture that absolutely revels in, in fact defines itself by, a deep love of ambiguity, multi-layered allusion, oblique communication, and known but unstated assumptions?—that’s positively criminal.

joined Jul 26, 2016

I guess our school system just totally burned me for any interpretations etc. of literature/poetry, using general symbols and meanings, because all I was ever taught was that there is no room for interpretation. Author always means it only 1 way and any other interpretation is wrong. Even if author themselves disagree with what our teachers think the interpretation of their work is. Also you need to follow the right steps in interpreting their works. After all there is only 1 proper way to arrive at the conclusions you will arrive, because there is no other conclusions to arrive at other than the right ones.

Wow, that is a truly terrible theory of interpretation to teach people. If it were true, that would make most art and literature a mere parlor game, where the audience was supposed to guess the one true meaning, or a form of perverse communication, where the artist had one thing to say but buried it under a bunch of coded symbols so people would know they were supposed to receive a message but rarely if ever understand what the message was.

I'd say that's rather less teaching a theory than indoctrinating a dogma; "one true meaning" is the principle of religion, not science - as well as ideologies bastardized into secular religions by totalitarian regimes (which are unfailingly and universally insecure about their legitimacy). Anyone teaching like that is quite missing the point and either blatantly attempting to push a specific agenda or (in the spirit of "never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence") grossly half-assing it, likely because they're in the wrong job altogether or at least covering the wrong subject and CBA to go to the trouble of teaching the whole complex topic to a bunch of kids most of whom probably aren't terribly interested anyway.
I've had teachers like that.
Thankfully those were back in Elementary and the ones covering the same subjects at the higher grades were far more on the ball with their jobs.

last edited at Feb 9, 2019 9:29PM

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

I really hate it when I read a conversation, and want to join it, but I don't know what to say...

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Heavensrun posted:

On the topic of "professional vs fan translations". We got first volume released here and they made a blatant mistranslation, which changes context quite a bit. And of course there is no option to release fixed version. The advantage of digital translations you can always update.

What is the mistranslation, out of curiosity?

Chapter 3, page 28
Our translation:
"Why did she say that is enough?"
"She is"
"such a liar."
Actual line:
"So why did I tell her I don't mind?"
"... This really is."
"unfair of her."

It implies Yuu saw through Touko's facade as soon as chapter 3.

I know it doesn't really seem like much, but it isn't even like translator tried to convey the same meaning by using different words or thought that it would sound more natural. It is blatantly just changing what character said to something else, because they thought it sounded better or whatever reason for it was. And even if Yuu did see through Touko already back then, that is not what original text said. Sure I'm more for faithful translations in general, but I understand that sometimes you have to change some stuff and what or how you need to change is very subjective and hard. This on the other hand is just a very simple sentence that was changed for no other reason that "I felt like it." And stuff like that make me lose trust in translation and get paranoid how many other little changes like that that are there.

Interesting. I don't have the raws, so this is speculation based on what I know about Japanese, but I suspect they just got the subject association mixed up on the first sentence ("why did I say that", as opposed to "why did she say that"). which gives a different implied meaning to the accusation of unfairness. In the former, Touko's being unfair because she cornered Yuu in a lie, in the latter, Touko is being unfair because she -is- lying, so "You liar" is a fair translation in that context. The first mistake begets the second. TLDR: It's probably an honest mistake. The Seven Seas English translation is pretty close to the one on the website here, so I'm guessing this is some other release. is it also in English?

Btw. Whenever I find stuff like that, it reminds me of guys like you, who overanalyze every single line and craft meanings and theories from them, while all this time they could be mistranslated or rewritten (and some translations here actually have this issue).

When I find stuff like that, it reminds me of sloppy readers who misunderstand what they're reading because they aren't paying attention to the details. ;p

But seriously, my goal is just to understand the work and see if I can figure out where it's going to go in the future. Sometimes I read too much into a line. (Or panel structure. Anybody remember when I thought Yuu had kissed Touko before the play??) But so what? Sometimes when you're solving a maze you run into a dead end. Being wrong isn't bad. Refusing to admit when you're wrong is when it's a problem.

Since I'm already writing, on topic on symbolize and whatnot. I personally prefer to avoid deriving meanings etc. from symbols and outside influences, unless author is blatantly referring to them and/or clearly builds a connection. I'm much more in favor of theming and building own icons and symbols, than just blatantly borrows them from other sources. And sure, they can use existing symbols, but they should still properly integrate them into the story instead of just expecting people to know them already and draw the connection. And yea, sure, stuff can have deeper meaning, the way scene is set etc. can also be meaningful, but sometimes you need to know when to stop and see that boat is just there so they can have some privacy. Or because Nakatani got tired of drawing backgrounds.

I mean, I think Blastaar already nailed my thoughts on this pretty well? Symbols can be used deliberately or subconciously, they can mean different things, and sometimes they're just set dressing that happens to line up in a neat way. Tons of this is entirely subjective. Even in your own sentence up there, you say "unless it's blatant" but what's blatant to one person is obtuse to another, and even if two people agree that a symbol is blatant, they might disagree on what it means.

They're in a boat, but they're not really going anywhere. That could be a metaphor for their relationship, but the boat also serves a story purpose in that it helps isolate them from their surroundings. It gives them privacy in public, but also, they didn't choose to do this themselves, so they're also forced to sit together and talk out their feelings. It's the "Trapped in a small space" trope. It's also possible Nakatani just went on a research trip to the place the kids were going to to, saw some boats, and was like "Ooh, I wanna draw some characters in a boat. That's kind of romantic!" Two people going out on a rowboat together in a park is also a pretty common date activity. It could be that any one of these things was a primary motivating factor, or that none of them are. It's often the case in writing a carefully crafted story that some combination of motivations go into any particular decision. The fact of the matter is, tho, that the author -did- choose to put them in a boat together.

Not that I think you were that serious with that line, but It's unlikely -just- because Nakatani got tired of drawing backgrounds, because if you don't want to draw a background, you just...don't? Like, there's tons of techniques for filling background space with tones, or framing panels so that there just isn't room for background details. Or you just ask an assistant to do it. But I doubt Nakatani-sensei gets lazy about those sort of things, given how much meticulous detail she puts into things.

But even if the author got lazy, or had writer's block and faced a deadline crunch or whatever other reason just used the boat as a shortcut to save on labor, The fact that it works anyway is still worth examining. Why doesn't it feel like the author was being lazy? Why does it feel like a deliberate choice?

I've definitely read manga where the backgrounds go away and it just feels like the author didn't take the time, but I've also read manga where the backgrounds go away and it definitely feels like a deliberate choice. So even if something isn't intended, the fact that it works is still worth examining.

I guess our school system just totally burned me for any interpretations etc. of literature/poetry, using general symbols and meanings, because all I was ever taught was that there is no room for interpretation. Author always means it only 1 way and any other interpretation is wrong. Even if author themselves disagree with what our teachers think the interpretation of their work is. Also you need to follow the right steps in interpreting their works. After all there is only 1 proper way to arrive at the conclusions you will arrive, because there is no other conclusions to arrive at other than the right ones.

I want to throttle your entire school faculty. That is absolutely awful and wrongheaded. Any actual breakdown of real literary criticism will immediately point out that there are many subjectively valued schools of thought on how valuable it is to, say, interpret the world according to the creator's direct commentary (worldbuilding by edict, author canon), interpret the work without the context of the creator (death of the author), interpret the work as an expression of the author's self (auteur theory), interpret the work as a subject of the culture that produced it (pop culture theory) and any of a dozen others, all can be given different weights as lenses to look at a work, and many literary critics think you can only get a full picture of a work by looking at all of them, sometimes including perspectives that are contradictory by nature. The idea that there's -one- way to do it -right- is...(shake head) STUNNINGLY arrogant.

last edited at Feb 10, 2019 7:17PM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Oh, and for the record, I don't pretend to be an expert in literary criticism. If I seem confident (or even arrogant) that's probably an artifact of my personality, but I know enough to know that actual experts don't talk about literature as if there's one answer to how to analyze a work.

Runrin-icon-wrd-2
joined Feb 9, 2019

i cry during every chapter now. this month was pretty okay though. feel bad for sayaka, blaming herself, saying that yuu took advantage of her silence. touko just chose the way she did because she's touko. its touko's fault for not noticing sayaka in the first place. i suppose if she'd made herself more out of reach touko might have fallen for her instead.

ahhhh, i just want everyone to be happy. i guess the three of them would probably make a pretty cute poly trio. i can see sayaka and yuu teaming up to get revenge on touko for all her bossiness. :P

last edited at Feb 12, 2019 4:06AM

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

ahhhh, i just want everyone to be happy. i guess the three of them would probably make a pretty cute poly trio. i can see sayaka and yuu teaming up to get revenge on touko for all her bossiness. :P

I think others have already said this many times before, but this simply isn't that kind of story...

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

its touko's fault for not noticing sayaka in the first place.

I wouldn't say "not noticing". She even points out right in this chapter that she was aware of Sayaka's feelings, but chose not to think about them. It's not a question of noticing, but rather Touko not wanting to be with anyone who had any such feelings for her, leading her to choose Yuu who at that time seemed unable to ever do so.

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

Meanwhile, in can-barely-be-counted-as-on-topic news:
Today, because it's Valentine's, our legal proceedings teacher gave us a free class to recite or sing some songs or parts of songs. Now, because I'm referring to myself here with my initials, I'll also do so with my classmates. First came two guys: EF and BK. They recited some shitty, but funny thing, whatever. Then came three other guys: DT, PV and NĐ, who sang a song that, while, yes, having some romantic element, is much more of a patriotic song than a romantic song. Then, there was a girl, SK, who recited a love song that we already learned, like... a decade back... The song is called "Srcolovka". Then came two other guys, FM and MI, who also recited some shitty funny stuff... And, finally, we come to me. I have taken the time to connect to the internet, find the English translation to "Suki, igai no kotoba de" (yes, the insert song in episode 13 of YagaKimi), took the last stanza, translated it to Serbocroatobosniomontenegrin, and then recited. I got the biggest applause of all of them, and the teacher said that 3 of the previous 4 numbers should've been bood at. I helped YagaKimi gain recognition there, and only my namesake classmate who sits next to me realized it (due to me telling him about it beforehand, and because he turned on his Wi-Fi so I could find what I needed on the Internet).

Šta ti želim reći
Je uvjek zapisano u dubini mog srca.
Kad čujem tvoj glas, sve zaboravim.
Čak u tim tajnim razmjenama,
Zakopam ih svakog dana razgovorima.
Šta bi trebalo uraditi?
Šta da kažem?
Riječima drugim do "ljubav".

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

its touko's fault for not noticing sayaka in the first place.

I wouldn't say "not noticing". She even points out right in this chapter that she was aware of Sayaka's feelings, but chose not to think about them. It's not a question of noticing, but rather Touko not wanting to be with anyone who had any such feelings for her, leading her to choose Yuu who at that time seemed unable to ever do so.

I wonder what exactly Touko means by “Sayaka’s feelings.” Question for our multilingual folk: is the original unequivocal that she’s talking about specifically romantic feelings?

Dynasty translation: “It’s not that I was oblivious to how how strongly Sayaka feels about me.”

Alternate translation: “It’s not that I didn’t notice how strong Sayaka’s affection was.”

(As a parallel example in English, if someone were to say, “I knew she had feelings for me,” the idiom always means “romantic feelings.”)

Sayaka clearly has worked hard at becoming Touko’s only close friend, and the specific moments Touko thinks about (the fireworks scene, the confrontation about the revised script of the play) are perfectly consistent with Sayaka attempting to get closer to Touko in a non-romantic way.

If the answer to my translation question is “yes, the feelings in question are definitely romantic,” then Touko always was making an implicit choice between Sayaka and Yuu from the very beginning.

But if not, it’s more like, “I knew that Sayaka really wanted to be my friend, but her silence about her love allowed me to not think about it any more deeply than that.” In this reading Sayaka never was perceived as a romantic possibility until she actually confessed.

In the end, there’s really not that much difference between the two possibilities as far as the outcome of the story goes.

But the story has been structured around the two big reveals by Yuu and then by Sayaka. Touko’s instant grasp of the situation both times (in Sayaka’s case, even before the reveal itself) raises the question of whether she had a psychological block that prevented her from perceiving how her two friends actually felt about her (and therefore how her own attitudes were causing them emotional pain) or if she did know what was up and she simply found it convenient to not fully think things through.

A subtle thing at times, this language business. Emotions too, as a matter of fact.

joined Nov 5, 2017

its touko's fault for not noticing sayaka in the first place.

I wouldn't say "not noticing". She even points out right in this chapter that she was aware of Sayaka's feelings, but chose not to think about them. It's not a question of noticing, but rather Touko not wanting to be with anyone who had any such feelings for her, leading her to choose Yuu who at that time seemed unable to ever do so.

I wonder what exactly Touko means by “Sayaka’s feelings.” Question for our multilingual folk: is the original unequivocal that she’s talking about specifically romantic feelings?

Dynasty translation: “It’s not that I was oblivious to how how strongly Sayaka feels about me.”

Alternate translation: “It’s not that I didn’t notice how strong Sayaka’s affection was.”

(As a parallel example in English, if someone were to say, “I knew she had feelings for me,” the idiom always means “romantic feelings.”)

Sayaka clearly has worked hard at becoming Touko’s only close friend, and the specific moments Touko thinks about (the fireworks scene, the confrontation about the revised script of the play) are perfectly consistent with Sayaka attempting to get closer to Touko in a non-romantic way.

If the answer to my translation question is “yes, the feelings in question are definitely romantic,” then Touko always was making an implicit choice between Sayaka and Yuu from the very beginning.

But if not, it’s more like, “I knew that Sayaka really wanted to be my friend, but her silence about her love allowed me to not think about it any more deeply than that.” In this reading Sayaka never was perceived as a romantic possibility until she actually confessed.

In the end, there’s really not that much difference between the two possibilities as far as the outcome of the story goes.

But the story has been structured around the two big reveals by Yuu and then by Sayaka. Touko’s instant grasp of the situation both times (in Sayaka’s case, even before the reveal itself) raises the question of whether she had a psychological block that prevented her from perceiving how her two friends actually felt about her (and therefore how her own attitudes were causing them emotional pain) or if she did know what was up and she simply found it convenient to not fully think things through.

A subtle thing at times, this language business. Emotions too, as a matter of fact.

The word Touko used was 好意 and is not used to talk about romantic feelings exclusively. Should be closer to kindness or affection in this context.

Touko was not oblivious to Sayaka's and Yuu's feelings is my take. There were some scenes where she looked suspicious about Yuu (chapters 13 & 24), but just chose to think it was not possible for Yuu to have feelings for her, because she felt good and wanted to keep the status quo. It should be the same with Sayaka, Touko was aware of how much Sayaka cared about her but didn't want to believe that affection was love, which was easy because Sayaka never confessed. When she tried to, Touko put two and two together and noticed what was gonna happen.

last edited at Feb 14, 2019 1:14PM

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

Whether or not the chosen word is used exclusively for romantic feelings, she already considers Sayaka her closest friend, so I don't really see how it could mean simply Sayaka wanting to be her friend. Clearly she did not ignore her friendship. Not to mention, she's specifically thinking this as a comment to Sayaka's confession replayed in the previous panel.

last edited at Feb 14, 2019 1:57PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Again, it's a fairly small point about how to re-read the Touko in the earlier chapters now that everything's out in the open.

As I've mentioned before, prior to the confession scenes we're supposed to understand Touko as being both exceptionally sharp and noticing, especially about how the people around her feel about her, as well as unaware (at some level) of exactly how the two people closest to her feel about her.

skulll's reading of Touko in regard to Yuu is clearly right: on the alert for danger signals of Yuu falling in love with her, yet willing to overlook or rationalize away such hints in order to keep the status quo. (Touko, thy name is status quo. Except for the falling in love with Yuu thing.)

Touko knew Sayaka cared for her, certainly--she's Touko's only real friend, and Sayaka makes no secret of being proud that she's the only person Touko relies on. Touko of course also feels affection for Sayaka, but until the fireworks scene she doesn't actually confide in her (she does about the string of confessions, but that's the personal life of "Perfect Touko"--the fireworks scene is a glimpse of "Real Touko," but only a glimpse.) But Sayaka's obvious willingness to get even closer to Touko as a friend if Touko would let her does not necessarily read as romantic interest.

As I said, the difference between "Touko has known all along about Sayaka's romantic feelings for her" and "Touko did not allow herself to be consciously aware of Sayaka's romantic feelings for her until moments before Sayaka's confession" is not extremely large, but it's interesting to me as an aspect of Touko's character, and I wondered if the original phrasing shed any light on the matter.

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

@Blastaar
@skull
Thank you. It makes the situation much more clear. And just in time before I start re-reading this too, lol.

Cindy%20small%20gs
joined Oct 20, 2017

I reread chapter 38 and I feel very fortunate that the author has been able to handle Touko this well so far. I expected that Touko getting the plot ball, after Yuu has held onto it for most of the series, would put a lot of strain on the character. That is, basically every little thing she does is magnified, especially since we're in the middle of the climax now. But so far it's working.

I have a feeling that it's kind of risky to play the "plot card" of Touko crying (I think for the first time in the story) in a scene that isn't the one where Touko and Yuu reconcile the main conflict, but it might pay off. (I'm not sure if this counts as a subverted trope?) Either way, I continue to be very excited. (Also, if anyone is wondering why I'm fixating on the crying... It's because I am the dumb and I can only talk about the few patterns that even I can spot.)

last edited at Feb 14, 2019 7:07PM

joined Nov 5, 2017

I reread chapter 38 and I feel very fortunate that the author has been able to handle Touko this well so far. I expected that Touko getting the plot ball, after Yuu has held onto it for most of the series, would put a lot of strain on the character. That is, basically every little thing she does is magnified, especially since we're in the middle of the climax now. But so far it's working.

I have a feeling that it's kind of risky to play the "plot card" of Touko crying (I think for the first time in the story) in a scene that isn't the one where Touko and Yuu reconcile the main conflict, but it might pay off. (I'm not sure if this counts as a subverted trope?) Either way, I continue to be very excited. (Also, if anyone is wondering why I'm fixating on the crying... It's because I am the dumb and I can only talk about the few patterns that even I can spot.)

There is a high chance Touko will cry when she and Yuu make up as well. And it's not the first time she has cried, that was in chapter 31.
I feel Touko was crying for Yuu and Sayaka in chapter 38. She is in pain for hurting Yuu's feelings and realising that she does love Yuu for Yuu and for having to reject her best friend.

last edited at Feb 14, 2019 7:11PM

Eivhbyw
joined Aug 26, 2018

I read this chapter somewhere else before and completely forgot to check over here because of that. Now I'm late. Whoopsie.

There is probably not a single thing I can add to the discussion at this point so I'll just talk about something else!
Did anyone notice that Nakatani reused the same panel of Kyoto three times in this chapter? I guess it was so detailed that it took too much time to make extra ones. lol

I still totally think Midori and the other girl have something going on behind the scenes as well. Just because it would be pretty hilarious to have another lesbian pair close-by that nobody noticed. Would certainly enhance the "oblivious" theme that gets torn down recently.

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

I still totally think Midori and the other girl have something going on behind the scenes as well. Just because it would be pretty hilarious to have another lesbian pair close-by that nobody noticed. Would certainly enhance the "oblivious" theme that gets torn down recently.

Well, there's no evidence, but we can have dreams.

To reply you must either login or sign up.