ForumBloom Into You discussion

joined Sep 16, 2014

I mean, for sure not every little detail has to have a symbolism attached to it.
That said, some authors who put a lot of thought in their work do pay attention to the detail crammed into every other panel of their work. Also, if I have to recall, Japanese authors really love likening their love stories with the seasons. For instance in "5 centimeters per second" the main character's love story begins under a cherry blossom during winter. It connotes heavily how their love is doomed from the start.
So yeah, I don't think the leaves "dying away with Sayaka's love" is that far-fetched. That said, ya'll should really just live and let live.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Your plan was perfect, Sayaka—but you forgot about the ducks.

One glimpse of nuzzling lesbian ducks, and the whole thing comes crashing down.

You gave it your best shot. You might have pulled it off, too, if it weren’t for those darned ducks.

https://imgur.com/gallery/C98siJ7

last edited at Feb 4, 2019 2:56PM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Yeah... I still don't like Touko. Let them all figure out they're gay and date other people outside of this triangle. I don't want Touko and Yuu to end up together because of how unhealthy their relationship is but that's my opinion.

They are teenagers. Teeeeeenaaaagerrrrs.

Seriously, I know I can be an asshole sometimes, but come ON. They're CHILDREN. They are allowed to not get it perfect right away.

I get so indescribably frustrated when people come into a story about kids learning "how do I work relationship" and going "WHAT THE FUCK WHY AREN'T THEY INSTANTLY PERFECT AT THIS".

Literally the entire point of the story is them learning -how- to have a healthy relationship, and that frequently begins by starting in a less healthy space, especially when one of the pair has a significant childhood trauma to deal with.

joined Jul 26, 2016

Being clueless, stupid and generally fumbling around is pretty much the natural state of teenagers, as is being rigidly fixated on dumb ideas with all the certainty only utter ignorance brings. If anything this lot is a cut above the average as they (are starting to) at least vaguely realize it, and the need to rethink things.

Ie. they're in the middle of the whole messy process of growing up.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Just... the interpretation of the leaves, "dying away or rotten as Sayaka's love" is eye-rolling for me. It's their autumn trip, so there are falling leaves. That's it.

Nothing wrong in trying to wring out everything you can out of a manga you love, but sometimes it's really far fetched.

At the same time, Autumn is often deliberately chosen as the setting for turning points in stories because it's an easy shorthand for change and withering of the old. They're maybe focusing too much on the details, but that doesn't mean the observation is completely wrong.

I mean, people -do- frequently include blue things in scenes to reflect sad feelings. ;p

joined Jan 19, 2017

Just a heads-up, people—I’ve got a big wall o’text percolating on the differences between connotation, suggestion, and symbolism (and also narrative staging), and soon as I get the time and energy, you’re gonna get it.

I will be looking forward to this, as I am now past my AP English days and still woefully uneducated in the literary arts.

When I said symbolism in my comment, that might have been too strong a word. In the past I've been corrected on terminology differences between drama and melodrama too for example. I like my interpretations though, because they lend more shades of feeling to me beyond what's literally depicted and said.

To a number of the other comments which say those are far-fetched interpretations, well I passed by those scenes (boat/leaf ones) completely on my first read. They clearly didn't stand out enough to have an immediate meaning like the ducks did. I don't think they necessarily have to mean anything, cause there are plenty of way more practical reasons for why those scenes were drawn that way, like the boat showing up on the first page cause then we know there are boats in the area and the leaves being there cause fall.

I like to think that Nakatani's narrative can be complex enough to allow for the possibility of such interpretations, given that there is some repeated textual evidence which is not contradicted by other main themes. And I've found that in Yagakimi, it is those every day objects, the small things which blend into daily life, which end up having the most meaning and feeling through coincidence and perhaps association with what's going on storywise. I mean, ducks. So why not other objects too which seem to have been deliberately drawn in?

Mostly I'm just surprised people even read so much of that wall of text.

last edited at Feb 4, 2019 1:53PM

Sayaka_ava
joined Nov 23, 2014

Well, I think we can all agree (at least, I hope most of us can!) that it is wonderful how different people can enjoy a work of fiction on their own terms, reading as deep into it as they choose to and derive equivalent amount of enjoyment that is not inferior to anyone else's level of engagement with it. If anything, that just shows that what we have here is something well written and worth talking about, whether we agree with the finer details of it or not.

4bbe1078a9d82bf519de9e5fc56dee60
joined Feb 18, 2018

Yeah... I still don't like Touko. Let them all figure out they're gay and date other people outside of this triangle. I don't want Touko and Yuu to end up together because of how unhealthy their relationship is but that's my opinion.

Preach.

Img_0053
joined Sep 19, 2017

Yeah... I still don't like Touko. Let them all figure out they're gay and date other people outside of this triangle. I don't want Touko and Yuu to end up together because of how unhealthy their relationship is but that's my opinion.

Preach.

Why they have to date other people just to know they’re gay? Part of this story is teaching us that people always have a choice. Sayaka definitely knows she’s gay, but she chose to stay and waited for Touko. Yuu clearly has a choice through out the whole story but she chose to help and learn to fall in love with Touko, Touko chose to runaway from all the confessions and even rejected Sayaka because she chose Yuu to be with and love her instead. They’re teenagers who are struggling to know what love truly is. So it’s understandable. It should have been obvious that they’d messed up. And seeing Sayaka and Touko learning to accept and respect each other’s choices is something to proud of. It means they grew up and learned. They have plenty of things to learn since they are young. Why don’t you let them choose what they want and who they want to love at this moment and learn?

joined Aug 22, 2016

I find what riverFlower posted to be a wonderful interpretation of the chapter, and since the beginning Nakatani Nio has not been shy about using a great depth of symbolism. It may be a bit outside the story but that can be fine. Stories are as much what we learn from them as we can connect to outside of a story.

Autumn, in cultures new and old, and from around the world, has been used as a time and setting to be thankful of what we have while accepting of what we don't have. It's a time of harvest and bounty but also a time of preparing for going on without when winter arrives. Modern society is losing touch with emotions brought by the seasons and of living by the seasons themselves. It's not stretch that Nakatani would be familiar with this, especially concerning her wide use of natural symbolism in the story.

Yeah... I still don't like Touko. Let them all figure out they're gay and date other people outside of this triangle. I don't want Touko and Yuu to end up together because of how unhealthy their relationship is but that's my opinion.

Unhealthy despite helping both of them progress in a positive direction? Certainly Touko took advantage of Yuu's perceived inability to love but Yuu herself is aware of this. Not only does she reassure Touko that she can continue to love her, but Yuu admits to herself that she wants Touko to keep loving her so that Yuu herself can learn about love. And the main theme to Yuu's struggle is accepting that love isn't perfect and comes in different forms.

Touko not only lost her sister of who she was fully dependent on, but her family shamed her into living for her sister, basically telling Touko "you're no good unless you're like your sister, so live for her". Touko's family shoved their inability to accept death onto her, to make her a replacement. How can anyone understand themselves and their own feelings after being subjected to such a thing at such a young age?

Bloom into You is a story of learning and of accepting. If Touko is bad then how about Sayaka early on relishing in her perceived control over Touko? Yuu and Sayaka are essentially mirrors of each other. Yuu wants Touko to "change" or rather to be herself while Sayaka had to learn to accept Touko as Touko and not of what she wanted Touko to be. Sayaka talking about love being a matter of trust in a fundamental self while knowing what changes to accept and which changes not to are all words from her own experience and process as a character. And this applies to where Sayaka had to accept Touko's changes to love her and the same for Touko to love Yuu in a "healthy" way. Touko has to accept change. To accept that Yuu is still Yuu, that Yuu has changed but not changed, that Yuu loving her is okay because Yuu is Yuu and no one else.

The most telling of the nature or healthiness of their relationship is when Yuu tells Touko that internal contradictions are okay, a revelation that stunned Touko. The other part is when Yuu tells Touko that even if she wants to accomplish what her sister couldn't, even if Touko wants to be different, even if she contradicts herself that's fine because at her core the person wanting to do those things is herself. And that the love people have for Touko isn't for her sister, it isn't for anyone nor anything else, but for that Touko who is fighting to find her own way.

Touko feels like she has to live for her sister, but the one that wants to perform the play and act, wants to find herself, that's all Touko, the Touko people rally behind and love. This is why Yuu said along the lines of "don't hate what I love, BAKA!" after Touko said she hates herself.

Touko and Sayaka are already aware they are lesbians and I think Yuu is bisexual and otherwise didn't have much difficulty with Touko being a girl too. The play ended basically with Touko coming out to her parents who said at the end "we have things to talk about" in an understanding way. The play was written by another character but the accuracy in describing Touko was spot on. Discovering sexuality is a theme to Bloom into You, and while there are certainly differences, the focus is facing the challenges of and acceptance of love itself which has no orientation. People have orientations, love doesn't.

As for the rest of the story, I don't think were through all the drama just yet. Yuu, I have a hard time believing she'd accept Touko's answer right away.

last edited at Feb 4, 2019 11:03PM

joined Nov 5, 2017

Touko and Sayaka are already aware they are lesbians and I think Yuu is bisexual and otherwise didn't have much difficulty with Touko being a girl too. The play ended basically with Touko coming out to her parents who said at the end "we have things to talk about" in an understanding way. The play was written by another character but the accuracy in describing Touko was spot on. Discovering sexuality is a theme to Bloom into You, and while there are certainly differences, the focus is facing the challenges of and acceptance of love itself which has no orientation. People have orientations, love doesn't.

I don't really think Touko is a lesbian or Yuu is bisexual. Sayaka for sure is a lesbian and she herself has stated this. But Touko and Yuu are pretty much the same, both fell in love with each other for other reasons than mainly "because she is a girl and I like girls" (unlike Sayaka). Nakatani even said that one of the reasons boys exist in yagakimi is to show girls who fall in love with other girls because they like girls (Sayaka and Miyako) and girls whose love interest simply happened to be a girl (Touko & Yuu). Boys are present yet the leads choose other girls and don't show attraction to guys (Yuu may have wanted to, but failed to). Touko didn't fall in love with Yuu at first sight or showed that kind of interest before Yuu said the magic words "I can't fall in love with anyone" and she hasn't shown attraction to other women either. Yuu fell in love with Touko after all the time they spent knowing each other.
It's easier to label the other characters in this manga (Sayaka and Miyako are lesbians, Maki is asexual aro, Koyomi, Akari and Doujima are straight, Riko is bi) but I don't see the point on labelling the main characters. If people really insist on labelling them, I would say pansexual, but still, I'd much rather just say that they fell in love for who the other is, and their gender was irrelevant in that process (which doesn't mean they aren't sexually attracted to each other, because they clearly are, but that's a part that came with love). Could they have fallen for each other had the other (or both) been male instead? Probably. Just like Riko wasn't into girls but chose Miyako because she fell in love with the person she is.

last edited at Feb 4, 2019 11:23PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

OK, Nyah-chan has thrown down the “you’re reading too much into it—the author didn’t intend that” gauntlet, so:

Symbolism, broadly defined = something has meaning beyond its denotation. In literature, that denotation is the literal meaning of the word, in comics it’s that plus the factuality of what is visually depicted (in the first instance, a leaf is a leaf.)

Then there’s connotation, what’s suggested by what is said/shown. Some of that is cultural knowledge, some is cultural convention.

Let’s take a romantic confession. As mere information being passed from one person to another, that can happen any way at all—through a text, an email, or even a telegram (they still exist in a lot of places).

But socially, it seems “wrong” that a confession be done otherwise except in person. It further seems necessary that it be done away from other people—you could do it on a bus, or walking through a crowded mall, but it’s too emotionally fraught for that. Furthermore, it could be done in complete privacy, like in a bedroom, but depending on how it goes, one or the other person could feel trapped and confined. Therefore, conventionally confessions take place somewhere both public and also private—in a quiet area of a park, behind the school, in an empty classroom, etc.

None of that is “symbolic” but only suggestive. If it were to take place in a dark alley, it would suggest something clandestine and tawdry about the relationship, because those are associations that “go with” a dark alley.

So in Chapter 38, the boats. There are boats in the first instance because in the Arashiyama section of Kyoto where the characters are is a river and on that river are boats (also an old-fashioned train from which you can see boats going through a narrow passage). Touko and Sayaka are in a boat because it allows them to be together in public but away from everyone else—not symbolism either, but still meaningful in terms of staging. There are also further connotations that go with boats—travel, change, progress, etc. But the two of them aren’t literally going anywhere, so which boat-ish connotations get engaged in any given reading is highly variable and basically subjective. (Ditto for the bridges.)

Then there are repeated patterns. Distinguishing between mere repetition and a meaningful pattern is highly context-dependent and to also to varying degrees subjective (just ask a paranoid person about the difference sometime).

The leaves. The first fallen leaves, on page 11 [paginated 67] are arguably just part of the literal furniture of the scene. Now, there’s no necessary reason for there to be an overhanging tree, or for Sayaka to trail her fingers in the water near the leaves; that’s a thing you do on a leisurely boat ride like that. But the bottom panel isolates a falling leaf, placing it right beside a word balloon reading “loving someone.” That makes a direct textual link between the literal leaf and the concept of love, all but labeling the image as “leaf = love.”

In the ensuing sequence, Sayaka plucks the leaf from Touko’s hair (at the literal level simply a thing a friend does for a friend) and holds it up almost like a talisman as she tells Touko her understanding of love. It’s the key moment almost of the entire story—where Touko finally hears the thing that she’s needed to get through her thick, stubborn skull for the whole series: love is about trusting yourself and the other person with no guarantee of certainty about the future (in the other translation, a leap of faith). So the pattern not only suggests but almost shouts that there’s a connection between the leaf and Touko’s love.

How far you can legitimately push that connection is, again, variable and subjective (I probably lean a bit more Nyah-chan’s way than riverFlower’s on this one). But if we wanted to be exhaustive about the possible symbolic resonance of “falling leaves” in Japanese culture we could be here for a fucking month, and only just be getting started.

The ducks are blatantly obvious. Duck #1, on page 9, is a “furniture” duck, part of the physical scene of the story. The ducks at the top of page 15 are “atmospheric” ducks—part of a calm sylvan scene where Touko thinks how she’s never been so calm when someone has confessed to her. The calm exterior scene mirrors Touko’s interior calm. You potentially could think of that as “symbolic,” but it’s really just parallelism. (If you start to doze on a quiet beach, the sounds of the waves aren’t “symbols” of your relaxation, they’re part of it.)

But then Touko notices the pair of ducks floating nearby, and their ducky skinship (beakship?) suddenly reminds her of her previous close relationship with Yuu. The connection is more associative than technically symbolic—person sees X, which reminds her of Y. Touko’s demeanor changes, which Sayaka notices, then we cut away from the scene.

Then the ducks reappear at the crucial moment, after Touko has announced her decision and just before Sayaka confirms that Yuu is the one Touko has chosen. Then as Sayaka reflects on what has happened, she sees a duck high in the sky, watches it land beside another duck, then sees them as a couple in the distance while she thinks “It didn’t end up being me.” Sayaka, razor-sharp as she is, most likely explicitly makes the connection between Touko’s previous reaction to the ducks and her relationship with Yuu. (I am very fond of Sayaka in this moment and sad for her, but am glad the ducks have found contentment).

This panel might as well have fucking neon signs saying, “This duck represents Touko,” and “This duck represents Yuu” and “This panel represents how Sayaka is a proud but sad fucking bunny rabbit.” (I just made up the part about the bunny rabbit.)

So tl;dr: sometimes things carry more weight than their literal sense to varying degrees, unless you’re paranoid. Then everything always does.

last edited at Feb 5, 2019 9:43AM

joined Sep 1, 2017

I think the ones who are analazying in depth give the rest an opportunity to listen to a second perspective of the manga. I like it. & to the ones who aren’t fond of it.. well tough luck just scroll along xD

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

The ducks are blatantly obvious. Duck #1, on page 9, is a “furniture” duck, part of the physical scene of the story. The ducks at the top of page 15 are “atmospheric” ducks—part of a calm sylvan scene where Touko thinks how she’s never been so calm when someone has confessed to her. The calm exterior scene mirrors Touko’s interior calm. You potentially could think of that as “symbolic,” but it’s really just parallelism. (If you start to doze on a quiet beach, the sounds of the waves aren’t “symbols” of your relaxation, they’re part of it.)

But then Touko notices the pair of ducks floating nearby, and their ducky skinship (beakship?) suddenly reminds her of her previous close relationship with Yuu. The connection is more associative than technically symbolic—person sees X, which reminds her of Y. Touko’s demeanor changes, which Sayaka notices, then we cut away from the scene.

Then the ducks reappear at the crucial moment, after Touko has announced her decision and just before Sayaka confirms that Yuu is the one Touko has chosen. Then as Sayaka reflects on what has happened, she sees a duck high in the sky, watches it land beside another duck, then sees them as a couple in the distance while she thinks “It didn’t end up being me.” Sayaka, razor-sharp as she is, most likely explicitly makes the connection between Touko’s previous reaction to the ducks and her relationship with Yuu. (I am very fond of Sayaka in this moment and sad for her, but am glad the ducks have found contentment).

This panel might as well have fucking neon signs saying, “This duck represents Touko,” and “This duck represents Yuu” and “This panel represents how Sayaka is a proud but sad fucking bunny rabbit.” (I just made up the part about the bunny rabbit.)

And then there's the historical significance of the ducks pointed out in Lyendith's earlier post in the middle of the spoilers. Whether we read too much into anything else in this chapter or not, the symbolism should be pretty clear in this case.

last edited at Feb 5, 2019 4:51AM

joined Aug 22, 2016

Touko and Sayaka are already aware they are lesbians and I think Yuu is bisexual and otherwise didn't have much difficulty with Touko being a girl too. The play ended basically with Touko coming out to her parents who said at the end "we have things to talk about" in an understanding way. The play was written by another character but the accuracy in describing Touko was spot on. Discovering sexuality is a theme to Bloom into You, and while there are certainly differences, the focus is facing the challenges of and acceptance of love itself which has no orientation. People have orientations, love doesn't.

I don't really think Touko is a lesbian or Yuu is bisexual. Sayaka for sure is a lesbian and she herself has stated this. But Touko and Yuu are pretty much the same, both fell in love with each other for other reasons than mainly "because she is a girl and I like girls" (unlike Sayaka). Nakatani even said that one of the reasons boys exist in yagakimi is to show girls who fall in love with other girls because they like girls (Sayaka and Miyako) and girls whose love interest simply happened to be a girl (Touko & Yuu). Boys are present yet the leads choose other girls and don't show attraction to guys (Yuu may have wanted to, but failed to). Touko didn't fall in love with Yuu at first sight or showed that kind of interest before Yuu said the magic words "I can't fall in love with anyone" and she hasn't shown attraction to other women either. Yuu fell in love with Touko after all the time they spent knowing each other.
It's easier to label the other characters in this manga (Sayaka and Miyako are lesbians, Maki is asexual aro, Koyomi, Akari and Doujima are straight, Riko is bi) but I don't see the point on labelling the main characters. If people really insist on labelling them, I would say pansexual, but still, I'd much rather just say that they fell in love for who the other is, and their gender was irrelevant in that process (which doesn't mean they aren't sexually attracted to each other, because they clearly are, but that's a part that came with love). Could they have fallen for each other had the other (or both) been male instead? Probably. Just like Riko wasn't into girls but chose Miyako because she fell in love with the person she is.

I don't feel a need to label their orientations, just noting them as I felt the story presented them. I thought the play included something about orientation but going back to read it again that's not the case. So yes, nothing indicates what orientation Touko has other than her obvious sexual attraction to Yuu. But at the same time nothing indicates she has any other sexual interest. Again, only going off the story not giving labels out of some need to.

I was quoted out of context as my argument was that while the characters have their orientations, whatever they may be;

the focus is facing the challenges of and acceptance of love itself which has no orientation. People have orientations, love doesn't.


gender was irrelevant in that process

The story never tried to show Miyako and Riko as anything but cisgendered women: where gender and sex match without conflict. So the gender vs. sex argument doesn't apply. Miyako avoids Riko because she likes her but worries Riko won't return those feelings because she is a woman. When Riko wants to try dating Miyako, Miyako again makes it clear she's a woman and Riko would be dating a woman to which Riko replies she isn't sure but wants to try and believes that she can.

Much later, seemingly still a bit uncertain, Miyako asks Riko what her preference is, man or woman? Riko replies "It's not like I'm all that into women" which obliterates Miyako's soul. To clarify Riko says "I'm normally not that interested in women, but I'm dating you now, Miyako. So you're like an exception, or a special case, or..."

In response Miyako tries to coax out of her what she means, not because she's uncertain what Riko means but because it's nice to hear that the person you're sexually involved with is sexually attracted to you. In Miyako's case it's wanting to hear that Riko is sexually attracted to her, at least in part because she's a woman. Riko couldn't only come this far in their relationship because part of her, as she was too embarrassed to admit directly, is attracted to women. Gender was never irrelevant to either of them. To Miyako and Riko, being women is part of who they are.

It is possible that Riko would say "I love you because you're you". But Miyako made it clear to Riko that an important part to her, and their relationship, is that she's a woman. Miyako could be a one-off for Riko, that does happen, but gender definitely is a factor in their relationship working.

And in general, regardless of orientation, sexual compatibility is real. Love, romantic love, does not automatically turn into sexual compatibility just because one loves someone for who they are. I'm not meaning Asexual, but people can romantically love someone and have no sexual interest or lose sexual interest which actually ends some relationships where love remains.

So, there's actually a lot I want reply to in your post but this is long already so I may make it a two part reply. However, the main point I wanted to make was that while orientation is addressed in the story, love itself is the main focus on the story.

OK, Nyah-chan has thrown down the “you’re reading too much into it—the author didn’t intend that” gauntlet, so:

Yes, Nyah-chan's comment made me remember what my Great Grandfather once said in regard to the Grand Canyon, "It's just a big hole in the ground, who cares?" Eyes roll all the way back to Bohemia.

last edited at Feb 5, 2019 5:21AM

Untitled-1
joined Oct 28, 2018

Bloom's 2nd Volume Blu-ray is selling reasonably well (about the same as the 1st) at 3,490 in the 1st week.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-02-05/japan-animation-blu-ray-disc-ranking-january-28-february-3/.143018

last edited at Feb 5, 2019 6:38AM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

I don't really think Touko is a lesbian or Yuu is bisexual. Sayaka for sure is a lesbian and she herself has stated this. But Touko and Yuu are pretty much the same, both fell in love with each other for other reasons than mainly "because she is a girl and I like girls" (unlike Sayaka). Nakatani even said that one of the reasons boys exist in yagakimi is to show girls who fall in love with other girls because they like girls (Sayaka and Miyako) and girls whose love interest simply happened to be a girl (Touko & Yuu). Boys are present yet the leads choose other girls and don't show attraction to guys (Yuu may have wanted to, but failed to). Touko didn't fall in love with Yuu at first sight or showed that kind of interest before Yuu said the magic words "I can't fall in love with anyone" and she hasn't shown attraction to other women either. Yuu fell in love with Touko after all the time they spent knowing each other.
It's easier to label the other characters in this manga (Sayaka and Miyako are lesbians, Maki is asexual aro, Koyomi, Akari and Doujima are straight, Riko is bi) but I don't see the point on labelling the main characters. If people really insist on labelling them, I would say pansexual, but still, I'd much rather just say that they fell in love for who the other is, and their gender was irrelevant in that process (which doesn't mean they aren't sexually attracted to each other, because they clearly are, but that's a part that came with love). Could they have fallen for each other had the other (or both) been male instead? Probably. Just like Riko wasn't into girls but chose Miyako because she fell in love with the person she is.

I don't see how anyone can say Yuu is bi. We don't have enough information to label Touko or Yuu at all They are each the other's first loves. As you mention, Sayaka explicitly says she is lesbian "I can only fall in love with girls" but with Yuu and Touko they only have each other. Touko is okay with the idea of being with Sayaka, so that's also a data point, and she was pretty sure that she wasn't turning down ms "cute letter" over gender, but those don't confirm exclusive interest in same sex relationships, they just show she isn't averse to them.

Fad8970e-c901-4004-bae1-4e5d013b5424
joined Jan 19, 2019

Bloom's 2nd Volume Blu-ray is selling reasonably well (about the same as the 1st) at 3,490 in the 1st week.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-02-05/japan-animation-blu-ray-disc-ranking-january-28-february-3/.143018

Is that considered a reasonable amount of sells? I just don’t wanna get my hopes up for a second season just to be crushed. Even if I believe that the project won’t start until the end of the manga.

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

OK, Nyah-chan has thrown down the “you’re reading too much into it—the author didn’t intend that” gauntlet, so:

Yes, Nyah-chan's comment made me remember what my Great Grandfather once said in regard to the Grand Canyon, "It's just a big hole in the ground, who cares?" Eyes roll all the way back to Bohemia.

There is a difference between saying "It's a wonder of nature and beautiful" and saying "it's a wonder of nature that was created by God in order to remind us that we have a hole as big in our heart ever since His Son sacrificed himself for our sake", or something to that extent...

I won't deny that there's symbolism in this chapter, like the ducks, but "Sayaka picking up the leaf in Touko's hair as a symbol of love and leaves in the water representing rotting, or wasting away, love" etc... is just putting things into it that are probably not there.

It's autumn. There are leaves falling. Sayaka picks a leaf in Touko's hair because author wants to show she cares about Touko and watches her. It's more likely than some deep meaning of rotting leaves.

last edited at Feb 5, 2019 10:21AM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

OK, Nyah-chan has thrown down the “you’re reading too much into it—the author didn’t intend that” gauntlet, so:

Yes, Nyah-chan's comment made me remember what my Great Grandfather once said in regard to the Grand Canyon, "It's just a big hole in the ground, who cares?" Eyes roll all the way back to Bohemia.

There is a difference between saying "It's a wonder of nature and beautiful" and saying "it's a wonder of nature that was created by God in order to remind us that we have a hole as big in our heart ever since His Son sacrificed himself for our sake", or something to that extent...

I won't deny that there's symbolism in this chapter, like the ducks, but "Sayaka picking up the leaf in Touko's hair as a symbol of love and leaves in the water representing rotting, or wasting away, love" etc... is just putting things into it that are probably not there.

It's autumn. There are leaves falling. Sayaka picks a leaf in Touko's hair because author wants to show she cares about Touko and watches her. It's more likely than some deep meaning of rotting leaves.

You'll notice (those who read it) that my post didn't say anything about authorial intention as a final boundary for validating an interpretation. Authors certainly do use symbolism consciously and intentionally many times, but whenever a word, trope, or image is deployed it inevitably connects (potentially) to all the connotations and previous history of such deployments, whether the author intended those meanings or not.

Sometimes the author uses them unconsciously, deciding that a given word or image just "seems right" or "just works," without actually thinking through why it works. Authors can even psychologically repress the implications of their own work, and only later do they look back and think, "Oh, yeah, all those villainous women in my stories really do look a lot like my mom when she was young. Oops." (Things get even more complicated when authors do intend a particular meaning but fail to get it across to readers, or even, for various reasons, lie about what their original intentions actually were.)

But most of those extensive potential connotations and associations won't actually become relevant to any given text, and deciding which ones are relevant and to what extent is a matter for interpretation (i.e., making a convincing argument for that interpretation). That's where the "context/repeated pattern" elements come in.

There's a single individual leaf depicted in five consecutive panels, and in the first one the leaf is shown entirely on its own beside the word "love." The sequence itself is one of the most thematically important for the whole series--clearly a turning point for Touko's character and for the main plot.

There's no ultimate proof that the leaf isn't just a bit of stage business, or a simple repetition of something we've seen multiple times--Touko's attention to and care for Touko. From my point of view, though, a minimalist reading of the leaf image seems less convincing because of the repetition and the context, and then once an association (NOT a 1-to-1 allegorical identification) of "falling leaf > Touko's love" is made, the connotations of withering/decay are inescapable, because that's what happens to fallen leaves. The long history of the image of falling leaves in Japanese poetry also points to a wider rather than narrower reading in this case.

What's "there" in a text isn't only what an author consciously and intentionally puts there, because that intention is just one side of the boundary defining "there."

Captureefef
joined Mar 16, 2018

Yeah, I was never that worried that Sayaka was ever going to be a match to Yuu and I'm glad it turned out the way that it did. Even Yuu didn't seem that concerned with a potential rivalry when Sayaka announced her feelings toward Touko in chapter 26. Sayaka missed her chance because she was content to let things stay the way they were. Only Yuu noticed the Touko's warped feelings and decided to do something about it. Yuu decided to take action and do something about it. Sayaka was content with merely the supporting role while Yuu claimed the lead. However, I am glad that Sayaka finally did confess and get that off her chest because I know that burying your feelings deep down can really fucking suck.

Hanging%20chito%20ava
joined Dec 18, 2016

I won't comment on whether the leaf actually represents love or not since that one isn't as obvious so the meaning is more speculative. However, I do want to point out that the use of autumn as the backdrop to emphasize the theme of change is most likely intentional on Nakatani's part. Even back in ch 34, this page specifically, the connection is established. What Touko said in the original Japanese is "I like autumn, wouldn't it be nice if we could remain in this kind of season forever?" It very much parallels her wish for their relationship to not change as she later expressed here. But we know how that went. Their relationship changes for good after Yuu's confession & now, here we are in ch 38, still contemplating about changes in autumn.

Is that considered a reasonable amount of sells? I just don’t wanna get my hopes up for a second season just to be crushed. Even if I believe that the project won’t start until the end of the manga.

It's a very solid number for today anime industry's standard. It's basically in the top 10% for its season & probably the whole year as well. Based on that number alone, S2 is highly likely. However, there are other factors to take into consideration. YagaKimi anime sold well but it's not exactly a huge hit or a merch magnet, & S2 is pretty much guaranteed to sell less than S1. In other words, it's not super profitable on its own. Because of that, manga sales boost is a big factor in determining a S2 in terms of profits (like a lot of adaptations nowadays). This brings us to the biggest hurdle against a S2 right now: the release schedule. Troyca and Makoto Kato (YagaKimi director) are gonna be busy with the new Fate project till the end of summer season, so they won't be available to work on YagaKimi till after that. So for a decent S2 to happen, the earliest it should come out is around Spring 2020 or even later. If the prediction of vol 8 being the last is correct, then by that time, the manga has long ended, which would mean there'll be less incentive to make a S2. There are definitely some anime projects/sequels that happen even after the manga has ended, recent example being Mob Psycho S2, but that tends to happen with bigger named titles with the rare cases of passion projects. YagaKimi is pretty mainstream for a yuri but it's still iffy to compare it to the battle shounen titles and all the classics that get that kind of treatment. So basically, you can only hope that the production committee loves it enough to fund a full adaptation at this point.

last edited at Feb 5, 2019 12:29PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I won't comment on whether the leaf actually represents love or not since that one isn't as obvious so the meaning is more speculative. However, I do want to point out that the use of autumn as the backdrop to emphasize the theme of change is most likely intentional on Nakatani's part. Even back in ch 34, this page specifically, the connection is established. What Touko said in the original Japanese is "I like autumn, wouldn't it be nice if we could remain in this kind of season forever?" It very much parallels her wish for their relationship to not change as she later expressed here. But we know how that went. Their relationship changes for good after Yuu's confession & now, here we are in ch 38, still contemplating about changes in autumn.

Yeah, I didn't even get into intra-textual pattern formations (a lot of us have been calling them "callbacks" at various points).

There's also the "shots of legs and feet on the way to and from big confrontation scenes" thing--we should have known as soon as we saw Touko wearing trainers (like Yuu in Chapter 34) and Sayaka with clunkier shoes (penny loafers, I think) that Touko was going to (figuratively) run away. lol

Once the the whole thing's finished, oh, the walls of text we shall have!

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

It's a very solid number for today anime industry's standard. It's basically in the top 10% for its season & probably the whole year as well. Based on that number alone, S2 is highly likely. However, there are other factors to take into consideration. YagaKimi anime sold well but it's not exactly a huge hit or a merch magnet, & S2 is pretty much guaranteed to sell less than S1. In other words, it's not super profitable on its own. Because of that, manga sales boost is a big factor in determining a S2 in terms of profits (like a lot of adaptations nowadays). This brings us to the biggest hurdle against a S2 right now: the release schedule. Troyca and Makoto Kato (YagaKimi director) are gonna be busy with the new Fate project till the end of summer season, so they won't be available to work on YagaKimi till after that. So for a decent S2 to happen, the earliest it should come out is around Spring 2020 or even later. If the prediction of vol 8 being the last is correct, then by that time, the manga has long ended, which would mean there'll be less incentive to make a S2. There are definitely some anime projects/sequels that happen even after the manga has ended, recent example being Mob Psycho S2, but that tends to happen with bigger named titles with the rare cases of passion projects. YagaKimi is pretty mainstream for a yuri but it's still iffy to compare it to the battle shounen titles and all the classics that get that kind of treatment. So basically, you can only hope that the production committee loves it enough to fund a full adaptation at this point.

Well, there's also 3D Kanojo's 2nd season airing this season that should adapt second half of the manga (volumes 7-12, after the first season did 1-6), with the manga having finished almost two years before even the first season aired and selling nowhere near this well. I would not be too worried yet for this series to get a proper conclusion in anime form as well.

Img_0053
joined Sep 19, 2017

Okay. While others discussing about autumn, just want to share this video: ONLY YOU KNOW: BLOOM INTO YOU
https://youtu.be/HO4sPVmTn_Y

To reply you must either login or sign up.