A time skip sounds interesting, see where everyone ends up. It would be kind of hilarious if the author trolled everyone by having the series just end in a giant orgy with all the relevant female characters.

Edit: The male teacher can uh...take a vacation to Hawaii or something.

Which he deserves.

I did try to read that, and for me it had quite a different vibe than this one (but bear in mind I was only able to get a few chapters into it). This series is about dysfunctional people being dysfunctional, to be sure, but to me there's actually not a lot of outright malice--just people compelled by their weaknesses into some messed-up places.

Well, if it's not your cup of tea, that's fine. I can only speak for the anime, anyway, which probably has a very different pacing from the manga. (a manga that ended up having 60 chapters turned into 12 episodes, probably a different ending as the Manga was still ongoing)

I for one didn't think most characters had a lot of genuine malice - aside from the Minagawa, the female teacher. And even her malice ultimately felt similar to the way Sei acts to cover up her vulnerability. She was a snake for sure, but everyone else just tried to cope with their own shortcomings and struggles in their own way. They weren't exactly mindful of one another and paid little heed to others' feelings, but didn't go out of their way to hurt others. And when those characters did act deliberately malicious, it backfired somewhat spectacularly and was rather short-lived.

That's off topic, though.

@FluffyCow: as hilarious as that ending would be, I'm fine without a Gainax-Ending to my Yuri-Drama, thank you ;)
And in general I'm not too big a fan of timeskip-endings, there's always still quite a few things that I'd like to see play out live rather than learn through the status quo after a flash forward. But eh, it's only one more chapter and you can't stuff it too full anyway. Feels a bit like Ueda had a fifth volume planned but got the axe. Oh well, I'd rather be happy with what I did get than complain about what could have been.

last edited at May 26, 2021 10:01PM

A time skip sounds interesting, see where everyone ends up. It would be kind of hilarious if the author trolled everyone by having the series just end in a giant orgy with all the relevant female characters.

Edit: The male teacher can uh...take a vacation to Hawaii or something.

Which he deserves.

Wasn't he weirdly okay with a student dating a teacher? I'm not sure if he entirely deserves a nice vacation haha
Edit2: For clarity I just want him out of the picture, and didn't want to say something mean about him.

Edit: Just saw the other response, apologies.

@FluffyCow: as hilarious as that ending would be, I'm fine without a Gainax-Ending to my Yuri-Drama, thank you ;)
And in general I'm not too big a fan of timeskip-endings, there's always still quite a few things that I'd like to see play out live rather than learn through the status quo after a flash forward. But eh, it's only one more chapter and you can't stuff it too full anyway. Feels a bit like Ueda had a fifth volume planned but got the axe. Oh well, I'd rather be happy with what I did get than complain about what could have been.

That's fair. I'm personally a fan of time skips because it's a fun way to show where the characters end up over time, in my opinion anyhow. Also I'm honestly not sure if this got the axe or not, the pacing throughout was at times wonky but I'd think this series would sell pretty well. As much as some elements frustrated me, I think the author really knows how to take the audience on a crazy ride.

last edited at May 26, 2021 10:20PM

That's the compelling point of the series for me--and it is compelling.

Also, the art is pretty compelling for me.

I've been rather bemused by the desperate search by some readers here for a "good" character to somehow make things OK.

Everyone is always quick to judge by their morals and standards and believe only their way is the right way.

This may well be like Asagi Ryuu's Age 15, where, after a whole lot of obviously bad and a great deal of at best questionable behavior, the MCs end up in a surprisingly better, although not necessarily objectively good, place.

What works for some may not work for all. Certainly isn’t preferred by many.

Yes, dominant Aya, first time we can see her as real tall lady.
Now i hope the end is had a time skip to avoid the rest of the problems

Yes, dominant Aya, first time we can see her as real tall lady.
Now i hope the end is had a time skip to avoid the rest of the problems

Would not mind seeing Haruki hooking up with that brat who liked that male professor, they deserve each other so freaking bad

Edit: The male teacher can uh...take a vacation to Hawaii or something.

Which he deserves.

Wasn't he weirdly okay with a student dating a teacher? I'm not sure if he entirely deserves a nice vacation haha
Edit2: For clarity I just want him out of the picture, and didn't want to say something mean about him.

Comparatively speaking, I mean--his sins, such as they were, were sins of omission in a raging sea of commission.

I've been rather bemused by the desperate search by some readers here for a "good" character to somehow make things OK.

Get used to it. It happens a lot.
Lately in the comments thread for Useless Princesses everyone and their uncle have been screaming hysterically for a "good character" (preferably a grown-up, any grown-up) to come and solve the problems of the mc kids.
And in the comments for Arioto people have been going crazy since the beginning because of the "sexual preference conversion" element... and wishing for a positive hero to come and assert the politically correct truth.
Extensive exposition to Western conventions and a sudden switch of focus to Asian mores can have this effect. Aftertremors of culture shock, you could say.

Edit: The male teacher can uh...take a vacation to Hawaii or something.

Which he deserves.

Wasn't he weirdly okay with a student dating a teacher? I'm not sure if he entirely deserves a nice vacation haha
Edit2: For clarity I just want him out of the picture, and didn't want to say something mean about him.

Comparatively speaking, I mean--his sins, such as they were, were sins of omission in a raging sea of commission.

Yeah you're definitely not wrong there.

I've been rather bemused by the desperate search by some readers here for a "good" character to somehow make things OK.

Get used to it. It happens a lot.
Lately in the comments thread for Useless Princesses everyone and their uncle have been screaming hysterically for a "good character" (preferably a grown-up, any grown-up) to come and solve the problems of the mc kids.
And in the comments for Arioto people have been going crazy since the beginning because of the "sexual preference conversion" element... and wishing for a positive hero to come and assert the politically correct truth.
Extensive exposition to Western conventions and a sudden switch of focus to Asian mores can have this effect. Aftertremors of culture shock, you could say.

I think in general, judging less is better than more, and that keeping an open mind is important.

Taking your three points in order: honestly I think those type of posts on Useless Princesses is just a way to express frustration, not a sign that readers literally want an adult to intervene and tell the characters what their sexuality should be (though Kurosawa should probably see a therapist for unrelated self-esteem issues).

Personally, I actually like Arioto, despite how iffy consent is in some spots. You could see it as sexual preference conversion, but despite having one character as the exclusive PoV, we never see inside her mind. It is entirely possible for her to be in denial. There's also other explanations, too.

You are right that it is a different culture, but I think it's mostly just because they're a bit farther back on the timeline of LGB rights and general acception. Before you can credibly complain about the minute details of LGB representation in media, you have to first have consistent LGB representation in media, which they don't.

If you go back and read Yuri manga from 15-20 years ago, you can see this as an extended trend. Back then, relationships between high school girls was portrayed as a kind of fickle, pretend romance exclusive to all-girls schools. It was played off as something straight girls did to prepare for having a boyfriend.

On top of everything, Arioto is pretty sexually explicit, and things made for sexual gratification tend to care wildly less about what is politically or even morally correct (for example, hentai is littered with sexual assault).

I like it. Aya and Sei'selfishness is the reason why their chemistry is in sync. People here love to project their own set of standards in a relationship too much. Their realtionship is not healthy? That's the point. It was never healthy to begin with.

True. I think people want it to be more all cotton candy and bubble gum. Toxic relationships in yuri isn't welcome because people like to brought their own beliefs and sometimes self-insert. Their relationship for me is kind of intoxicating, it's bad but it makes you feel all sorts of emotion

(Also, Aya isn't a child anymore yet they still treat Sei and ped)

I don't self insert myself into manga. I'm not projecting my standards on the manga, I'm stating my own personal opinion, and I'm not saying the author should do anything different. I'm also not saying people shouldn't enjoy the manga.

I also know the point of the manga is that the characters are toxic and the relationship isn't healthy. I'm very aware of that. I'm still here reading it to see where it ends up. I shouldn't have to defend myself for saying I don't like how the author romanticizes selfishness. I can read and find a story interesting, while still holding that opinion.

Edit: I also don't want everything to be "cotton candy and bubble bum", I can read and enjoy works like that and works like this for different reasons. I never said I hated this manga, if I did I would have stopped reading pretty quickly. Again I find the work interesting, I'm just not personally a fan of the romanticized selfishness here. It's not a black and white thing of love it or hate it, I can have a nuanced opinion and I try my best to do so.

It's like you can only have one opinion of the story to read it, otherwise you are a judgemental westerner. I don't know why people are so defensive over someone else's opinion for fictional characters. Fictional characters.

Well, I suppose that could have gone worse. At least it was actually quite a cute chapter...

Dayum, I forgot how deliciously thicc Aya is. That ass is something else.

Aya and sei are perfect for each other. They belong together. Now. Let the side characters begone to end this drama xD

I don't know, I'm gonna finally drop out of this one now.

It's just getting too exhausting for me to read....they just annoy me...a lot, the possessivenes, the 'selfishness' all of it just has a toxic level to it that I don't care for.
For what it's worth the MCs seem to be fine with their situations, but me 'as an outsider looking at their story' have stopped caring about any of their well-beings or possible lack there of :/

last edited at May 27, 2021 6:56AM

KakumeiNoHi posted:

I don't know, I'm gonna finally drop out of this one now.

It's just getting too exhausting for me to read....they just annoy me...a lot, the possessivenes, the 'selfishness' all of it just has a toxic level to it that I don't care for.
For what it's worth the MCs seem to be fine with their situations, but me 'as an outsider looking at their story' have stopped caring about any of their well-beings or possible lack there of :/

It's nearly over.

WTF are you dropping this one or two chapters away from the end?

KakumeiNoHi posted:

I don't know, I'm gonna finally drop out of this one now.

It's just getting too exhausting for me to read....they just annoy me...a lot, the possessivenes, the 'selfishness' all of it just has a toxic level to it that I don't care for.
For what it's worth the MCs seem to be fine with their situations, but me 'as an outsider looking at their story' have stopped caring about any of their well-beings or possible lack there of :/

It's nearly over.

WTF are you dropping this one or two chapters away from the end?

One chapter it is

It's like you can only have one opinion of the story to read it, otherwise you are a judgemental westerner. I don't know why people are so defensive over someone else's opinion for fictional characters. Fictional characters.

Can’t speak for the rest but I share my interpretations based on what I read. When people have a difference of opinion I respond because I wonder why they read it that way; if it’s because they missed a detail in the story or they’re just reading it differently based on biases (which is not wrong- I actually think that means the writing is good if it gets the audience to tap into their personal preferences because that means it evokes some type of emotional response with them.)

Mostly I like talking about this messed up manga.

last edited at May 27, 2021 11:00AM

It's like you can only have one opinion of the story to read it, otherwise you are a judgemental westerner. I don't know why people are so defensive over someone else's opinion for fictional characters. Fictional characters.

Can’t speak for the rest but I share my interpretations based on what I read. When people have a difference of opinion I respond because I wonder why they read it that way; if it’s because they missed a detail in the story or they’re just reading it differently based on biases (which is not wrong- I actually think that means the writing is good if it gets the audience to tap into their personal preferences because that means it evokes some type of emotional response with them.)

Mostly I like talking about this messed up manga.

Discussing opinions is good, however I think it's pretty common for people to think you can only have one opinion on a subject, and people often think you can't have a nuanced opinion. There's a very black and white, you love it or you hate it narrative a lot of the time. Which isn't helped by the fact that we have various review systems for places like Netflix and Steam now, where you can only give a "yes" or "no" opinion in terms of your score, and it REALLY lacks nuance. Plus text obviously lacks tone, and well a person's tone of voice might also be misleading.

Edit: And I should note, I of course also fall into this trap sometimes. We're all human, conversation can be hard and sometimes it's easy to forget that there's more nuance to a person's view on something .

As for this story, I think the author blatantly romanticizes selfishness, in this chapter especially. I believe it's brought up 3 times? Even only using the end as an example, "I love you Sei, your selfishness, your everything". It's okay if people enjoy that, and perfectly fine for the author to write it. I was only saying that I personally think the romanticization of selfishness is weird, and it's not something I like. I'm still entertained by the story, and I don't regret reading it. I'm even curious what the author's next work will be like.

last edited at May 27, 2021 1:17PM

KakumeiNoHi posted:

I don't know, I'm gonna finally drop out of this one now.

It's just getting too exhausting for me to read....they just annoy me...a lot, the possessivenes, the 'selfishness' all of it just has a toxic level to it that I don't care for.
For what it's worth the MCs seem to be fine with their situations, but me 'as an outsider looking at their story' have stopped caring about any of their well-beings or possible lack there of :/

It's nearly over.

WTF are you dropping this one or two chapters away from the end?

first of all how would I know this was going to be over in a chapter or two? and just the phrasing of 'one or two chapters' implies that you don't know either :/ and I'm still not going to finish it because secondly I am over it. it is done to me...I don't care to.

last edited at May 27, 2021 1:08PM

Dayum, I forgot how deliciously thicc Aya is. That ass is something else.

Yes, her ass is... Otherworldly. @Roseanna You are a person of culture.

last edited at May 27, 2021 2:46PM

Discussing opinions is good, however I think it's pretty common for people to think you can only have one opinion on a subject, and people often think you can't have a nuanced opinion. There's a very black and white, you love it or you hate it narrative a lot of the time. Which isn't helped by the fact that we have various review systems for places like Netflix and Steam now, where you can only give a "yes" or "no" opinion in terms of your score, and it REALLY lacks nuance. Plus text obviously lacks tone, and well a person's tone of voice might also be misleading.

Edit: And I should note, I of course also fall into this trap sometimes. We're all human, conversation can be hard and sometimes it's easy to forget that there's more nuance to a person's view on something .

Hearing tone is definitely important. I sometimes like to read with voices in my head to get things flowing. But that's why we have to rely on phrasing which can leave things up to interpretation. And no, I am not trying to diss translators. I understand the difficulties of translating and the impossibility of expressing sentences/dialogue verbatim.

As for this story, I think the author blatantly romanticizes selfishness, in this chapter especially. I believe it's brought up 3 times? Even only using the end as an example, "I love you Sei, your selfishness, your everything". It's okay if people enjoy that, and perfectly fine for the author to write it. I was only saying that I personally think the romanticization of selfishness is weird, and it's not something I like. I'm still entertained by the story, and I don't regret reading it. I'm even curious what the author's next work will be like.

I guess I see it as not so much romanticizing selfishness as it is romanticizing the embracing of your love's flaws. Yes, Sei's flaw is selfishness but from a broader perspective my mind is reading it as Aya loves Sei even though she knows how imperfect she is. Which is more what the message of the story to me is? It's even encapsulated in that last line of Chapter 19. "Your everything." - meaning the good and the bad that makes up Sei.

We see how Mochida and Haruki romanticize their love. Mochida loves her nurturing teacher yet what does she know really know about him? I feel like that moment when he says he doesn't care about what Sei has done defeats her not only because she exerted all that effort for no reward but also she becomes disillusioned. Like maybe Mr. Perfect isn't all that perfect.

And then we see Haruki, how she constantly is trying to keep Aya from growing and the minute Aya doesn't fit that image of Aya that Haruki loves, she rejects that Aya and tries to prevent her from evolving.

Yet Sei and Aya both loved people despite their flaws. That was just my take though.

last edited at May 27, 2021 3:27PM

Discussing opinions is good, however I think it's pretty common for people to think you can only have one opinion on a subject, and people often think you can't have a nuanced opinion. There's a very black and white, you love it or you hate it narrative a lot of the time. Which isn't helped by the fact that we have various review systems for places like Netflix and Steam now, where you can only give a "yes" or "no" opinion in terms of your score, and it REALLY lacks nuance. Plus text obviously lacks tone, and well a person's tone of voice might also be misleading.

Edit: And I should note, I of course also fall into this trap sometimes. We're all human, conversation can be hard and sometimes it's easy to forget that there's more nuance to a person's view on something .

Hearing tone is definitely important. I sometimes like to read with voices in my head to get things flowing. But that's why we have to rely on phrasing which can leave things up to interpretation. And no, I am not trying to diss translators. I understand the difficulties of translating and the impossibility of expressing sentences/dialogue verbatim.

Yeah, and with phrasing in conversation I often over think things and get overly wordy, on the other hand sometimes I don't say enough. So I know phrasing can be tricky, and getting the right intent across. Especially when everyone has their own interpretations and the like as well.

As for this story, I think the author blatantly romanticizes selfishness, in this chapter especially. I believe it's brought up 3 times? Even only using the end as an example, "I love you Sei, your selfishness, your everything". It's okay if people enjoy that, and perfectly fine for the author to write it. I was only saying that I personally think the romanticization of selfishness is weird, and it's not something I like. I'm still entertained by the story, and I don't regret reading it. I'm even curious what the author's next work will be like.

I guess I see it as not so much romanticizing selfishness as it is romanticizing the embracing of your love's flaws. Yes, Sei's flaw is selfishness but from a broader perspective my mind is reading it as Aya loves Sei even though she knows how imperfect she is. Which is more what the message of the story to me is? It's even encapsulated in that last line of Chapter 19. "Your everything." - meaning the good and the bad that makes up Sei.

We see how Mochida and Haruki romanticize their love. Mochida loves her nurturing teacher yet what does she know really know about him? I feel like that moment when he says he doesn't care about what Sei has done defeats her not only because she exerted all that effort for no reward but also she becomes disillusioned. Like maybe Mr. Perfect isn't all that perfect.

And then we see Haruki, how she constantly is trying to keep Aya from growing and the minute Aya doesn't fit that image of Aya that Haruki loves, she rejects that Aya and tries to prevent her from evolving.

Yet Sei and Aya both loved people despite their flaws. That was just my take though.

Honestly I don't think we even completely disagree here. We just have slightly different perspectives and that's fine. Along the lines of what you said, I also think the author is romanticizing the idea of embracing a flaw like selfishness. Embracing and/or Romanticizing a flaw like selfishness is weird to me, mainly because I think any kind of relationship should be about two people willing to work together, mutual give and take in theory. Which again, that's my opinion. I'm not saying the author is wrong for writing something that disagrees with what I think, and I'm not saying people can't enjoy the way the author writes this.

Edit: I should state again just to be clear for anyone reading, I don't have to agree with everything in a story or how the author writes it, I can still find a work like this interesting and even enjoyable in some aspects. I like reading stories that are different than what I think and who I am. Having all my media revolve around who I am would get boring quickly for me, so going out of my comfort zone is something I try to do often.

last edited at May 27, 2021 4:46PM

Yeah, and with phrasing in conversation I often over think things and get overly wordy, on the other hand sometimes I don't say enough. So I know phrasing can be tricky, and getting the right intent across. Especially when everyone has their own interpretations and the like as well.

I remember reading a chapter on Citrus+ here where I thought Harumi may be in love with Yuzu but then I read the Seven Seas version and the wording there changed the tone for me so I totally understand the importance of phrasing and word choices.

I like figuring out why people can interpret things the way they do so I read comments. Plus, it feels nice when someone else corroborates my thoughts.

Honestly I don't think we even completely disagree here. We just have slightly different perspectives and that's fine. Along the lines of what you said, I also think the author is romanticizing the idea of embracing a flaw like selfishness. Embracing and/or Romanticizing a flaw like selfishness is weird to me, mainly because I think any kind of relationship should be about two people willing to work together, mutual give and take in theory. Which again, that's my opinion. I'm not saying the author is wrong for writing something that disagrees with what I think, and I'm not saying people can't enjoy the way the author writes this.

I like reading about all kinds of romantic stories. Sometimes I go for fluff and want uncomplicated. But there are times when my "creative" side just loves reading about complex characters and their inability to form "normal" relationships and Aya and Sei feed that beast in me pretty well.

Edit: I should state again just to be clear for anyone reading, I don't have to agree with everything in a story or how the author writes it, I can still find a work like this interesting and even enjoyable in some aspects. I like reading stories that are different than what I think and who I am. Having all my media revolve around who I am would get boring quickly for me, so going out of my comfort zone is something I try to do often.

Amen to that.

last edited at May 27, 2021 8:31PM

God damn i love the last picture of them in the train look so good together