But is it -cross dressing- if that deception has no bearing on what you choose to wear, since "dressing" is specifically part of the term? Isn't it just a -lie- at that point, and not the specific behavior of cross dressing?

I see that it's definitely a case that's up to debate and it's okay to disagree, but I think Kanda wearing a corset to, however ineffectually, hide outward signs of her being female, does constitute choosing what she wears to pass as the opposite gender.

I mean you say it's the addition of deliberate deception, but deliberate deception isn't even a necessary part of cross dressing. Drag queens and crossplayers usually aren't trying to deceive anyone at all, they're just wearing clothes they like or dressing as characters they admire.

There are required parts to a definition, and sufficient parts to a definition. Deliberate deception is not necessary to crossdressing, but if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

I feel like the element that makes cross-dressing what it is isn't deception, but a deviation from expected norms, be they personal or societal. An intent to deceive -can- be part of that, but it isn't necessarily.

Even if we ignore my argument that deliberate deception is sufficient to call it crossdressing, isn't it true that she, through the way she behaves and dresses, deviates from expected norms and is by your definition crossdressing as well?

last edited at Jul 31, 2020 7:26PM

But is it -cross dressing- if that deception has no bearing on what you choose to wear, since "dressing" is specifically part of the term? Isn't it just a -lie- at that point, and not the specific behavior of cross dressing?

I see that it's definitely a case that's up to debate and it's okay to disagree, but I think Kanda wearing a corset to, however ineffectually, hide outward signs of her being female, does constitute choosing what she wears to pass as the opposite gender.

I mean you say it's the addition of deliberate deception, but deliberate deception isn't even a necessary part of cross dressing. Drag queens and crossplayers usually aren't trying to deceive anyone at all, they're just wearing clothes they like or dressing as characters they admire.

There are required parts to a definition, and sufficient parts to a definition. Deliberate deception is not necessary to crossdressing, but if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

I feel like the element that makes cross-dressing what it is isn't deception, but a deviation from expected norms, be they personal or societal. An intent to deceive -can- be part of that, but it isn't necessarily.

Even if we ignore my argument that deliberate deception is sufficient to call it crossdressing, isn't it true that she, through the way she behaves and dresses, deviates from expected norms and is by your definition crossdressing as well?

Eh, but there's what's normal for the person, what's normal for society, and what's normal for a specific person operating within society. Generally it isn't considered weird for a girl to wear things like pants, jeans, t-shirts, button-up shirts, and jackets. if it wasn't for her slender figure and....(ahem) understated busom, I don't think anybody would think her mode of dress was unusual for a girl. It's tomboyish, but cross dressing just seems like a high bar. I think the fact that she bound her chest with a corset is probably the closest she's come (which turned out to be unnecessary anyway)

But my point is that it's ambiguous; not that she definitely isn't cross dressing. So if it's ambiguous at all, the question becomes "when is the tag most appropriate in ambiguous situations?" If the tag is to alert to people who want content related to the tag, then using it in ambiguous cases might be disappointing or misleading. If the tag is to ward people away from content they -don't- want, then using it in ambiguous cases is "better safe than sorry". Thing is, in this case I think even the purpose of the tag itself is ambiguous, because I think both of those scenarios come into play sometimes, which further complicates the question of "should it be tagged crossdressing".

I just feel like the answer to the question is pretty fuzzy in this case.

I see no real harm in adding the crossdressing tag, even if it's ambiguous (I mean, if it weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion). It's not a trigger warning, just content information in this case. If someone looking for crossdressing manga doesn't feel that this is crossdress-y enough, well boo-hoo, they wasted probably all of five minutes reading the first ten pages or so before figuring out that it isn't for them. Now consider that others looking for crossdressing manga do feel that this fits their wishes and would have missed it without the tag. They've gained an hour or two of reading fun as it stands and have another series to follow.

I think the potential gain outweighs the potential harm.

The series has been up since 1 year, if people wanted to read it then they would have read it since then. And like someone said earlier, unless you talking about tuxedo/butler suit, there is not really such thing as males clothing. Everyone can wear a jean and t-shirt. You can't really talk about crossdressing if it's gender-neutral clothes.

The series has been up since 1 year, if people wanted to read it then they would have read it since then. And like someone said earlier, unless you talking about tuxedo/butler suit, there is not really such thing as males clothing. Everyone can wear a jean and t-shirt. You can't really talk about crossdressing if it's gender-neutral clothes.

To quote myself from the previous page:

How would a girl crossdress anyway? There isn't really a lot of "masculine-gender-locked" clothing anymore. A suit or tuxedo (with a suit jacket, not a blazer) comes to mind, maybe a shirt, everything else, meanung most everyday clothing men wear, is unisex. Unlike skirts and dresses, which are (with very few exceptions) locked to the feminine. Blouses are basically just shirts adapted to female anatomy, so I'm not even sure if we should distinguish them from shirts, and tight-fitting t-shirts (similar to girly-shirts) have found their place in masculine fashion as well.

To quote myself from this page:

If we assume that "behaviour" is part of crossdressing, I think it's rather fair to say that Kanda is crossdressing as masculine, because she's deliberately wearing gender-neutral or masculine clothing (even making sure Ookuma won't notice her breasts) and playing the part of the boyfriend.

[...] if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

It's more an academic argument rather than a discussion I expect to reach a good consensus on. It's mental gymnastics and I think I should stop pushing it ;)

last edited at Aug 1, 2020 9:58AM

The series has been up since 1 year, if people wanted to read it then they would have read it since then.

That doesn't follow. There are lots of series. I keep discovering old series I like, often from forum discussions.

The series has been up since 1 year, if people wanted to read it then they would have read it since then.

That doesn't follow. There are lots of series. I keep discovering old series I like, often from forum discussions.

That's a result of different reading habits. I am a very casual manga reader and far from consistent. Sometimes I read 3 series in one day (or watch 3 full seasons of anime in five days), other times I won't touch a form of media for months before doing another binge. I've been in the forum 11 months, lilliwyt only 2 months more, yet he/she/x has about 35 times as many posts on the forum. That should be enough information about how our reading habits compare (and no, this is not a value judgement at all, we just make good examples for opposite habits).
I only stumbled upon the series and a few others about a month ago when my latest binge began.

last edited at Aug 1, 2020 11:06AM

if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

Idk, that not something i call deliberate and yes, that doesn't count after because it's not like she change her way of dressing. Beside a corset but did a corset is enough to count as crossdressing.

yet he/she/x has about 35 times as many posts on the forum.

He

Idk, that not something i call deliberate and yes, that doesn't count after because it's not like she change her way of dressing.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/handsome_girl_and_sheltered_girl_ch09#18

This, on the other hand, definitely means that there was an intent to "deceive". That is putting it very, VERY strongly, as there was no malice, but rather the intent to not hurt, behind the "deception". A lie as white as it gets.

Beside a corset but did a corset is enough to count as crossdressing.

I see it as proof of the intent to crossdress.

If I were to make a stretch, I could argue that the vest she's wearing here (https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/handsome_girl_and_sheltered_girl_ch10#5) and the shirts she's wearing on several occasions emphasize broad shoulders and are thus male-coded clothing by design (pretty sure they're not blouses, for example here: https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/handsome_girl_and_sheltered_girl_ch02#2).
Ultimately it remains fuzzy because "masculine" clothing just isn't as "hard coded" to a specific gender as "feminine" clothing. We wouldn't say that the girlfriend wearing her boyfriend's shirt or hoodie is crossdressing, even though, at least in case of the shirt, it was designed around male physique.

If we propose that crossdressing isn't just about clothing, but also behaviour and gendered habits, it becomes messy again. She's definitely presenting as a guy towards Ookuma, not consciously at first, but it becomes deliberate after they start dating.

This is a mess.

If this is a mess and it's unsure then let's not. She is just acting like a guy, like i said she didn't change her way of dressing just because she start acting like a guy. Personally i don't see why it should be tag as crossdressing when it's clearly not crossdressing. Anyway, how do you act like a guy ? There is nothing such as behaviors reserved to one specific gender.

Edit : In any case, we're just going in circles. In the end, it's the mods who decide if it's fitting or not.

last edited at Aug 1, 2020 12:40PM

If this is a mess and it's unsure then let's not. She is just acting like a guy, like i said she didn't change her way of dressing just because she start acting like a guy. Personally i don't see why it should be tag as crossdressing when it's clearly not crossdressing. Anyway, how do you act like a guy ? There is nothing such as behaviors reserved to one specific gender.

Actually, there are--it's well-established in sociology that there are gendered ways of walking, standing, sitting, talking, and generally interacting with other people. That doesn't mean every person manifests all those coded behaviors, or does so in the same way or to the same degree. But they do exist.

I am agnostic on the tagging issue--except for the obvious trigger labels, they don't matter much to me. But it's definitely the case that behaviors can be coded as gendered.

If this is a mess and it's unsure then let's not. She is just acting like a guy, like i said she didn't change her way of dressing just because she start acting like a guy. Personally i don't see why it should be tag as crossdressing when it's clearly not crossdressing. Anyway, how do you act like a guy ? There is nothing such as behaviors reserved to one specific gender.

Actually, there are--it's well-established in sociology that there are gendered ways of walking, standing, sitting, talking, and generally interacting with other people. That doesn't mean every person manifests all those coded behaviors, or does so in the same way or to the same degree. But they do exist.

I am agnostic on the tagging issue--except for the obvious trigger labels, they don't matter much to me. But it's definitely the case that behaviors can be coded as gendered.

Tagging issue aside, there's a huge amount of gendered behaviours. I kind of like Judith Butler's postulate of "gender as performance". These behaviours are obviously not reserved for one gender, but typically associated with one more than the other, same as gendered clothes, and the associations change with time and society. That's basically the difference between gender and sex. I'd like to think of sex as what I am, and of gender as who I am.

Simple examples for some gendered ways of sitting are "manspreading" versus sitting with closed or crossed legs (e.g. to not allow others to see what's under a short skirt). Gendered ways of speaking would for example be found in turn-taking vs. interrupting one another. If you've ever seen a stereotypical "men vs women" sketch, you've seen an example of gendered behaviour taken to the extreme as a cliché for comedic effect.

last edited at Aug 1, 2020 4:30PM

yalls writing WHOLE ESSAYS here, im just here enjoying the cute yuri man...

yalls writing WHOLE ESSAYS here, im just here enjoying the cute yuri man...

I know, right?

Ahh, this just keeps getting better and better.

cute yuri man...

B-but Kanda-kun is a woman tho.

They have already met so I don't really get the sudden fuss, but brilliant chapter.

Eh, single target sexuality may be my least favorite trope in yuri

The pheromones were strong in that final scene.

Eh, single target sexuality may be my least favorite trope in yuri

sameee ugh

Ggghhhhh.... kanda x ookuma is wholesome but... my shipping urge is tellin’ me that secchan x kanda doesn’t look that bad.... hhhgghhh.... WELL, kanda x ookuma is canon i need to shut up-
It’s cute either way _:(´ཀ`」 ∠):

last edited at Aug 11, 2020 4:00PM

Eh, single target sexuality may be my least favorite trope in yuri

So it's about 80% of all yuri manga.

Insane amounts of (offscreen) sex

Kanda in a wedding dress though sweats

Eh, single target sexuality may be my least favorite trope in yuri

So it's about 80% of all yuri manga.

Unfortunately, yeah