Forum › Handsome Girl and Sheltered Girl discussion

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

The Eurasian horse nomads had pants as default garb for both sexes because fuck riding in a skirt, but among more sedentary peoples some manner of skirt was usual for women for practical reasons (notably relieving yourself).

You dare assume I didn't know those? I AM THE RESIDENT HISTORY ENTHUSIAST IN THIS SITE

joined Jul 26, 2016

The Eurasian horse nomads had pants as default garb for both sexes because fuck riding in a skirt, but among more sedentary peoples some manner of skirt was usual for women for practical reasons (notably relieving yourself).

You dare assume I didn't know those? I AM THE RESIDENT HISTORY ENTHUSIAST IN THIS SITE

Screw you I was here first =3=

joined Jan 14, 2020

among more sedentary peoples some manner of skirt was usual for women for practical reasons (notably relieving yourself).

And often usual for men, especially upper class men. Well, maybe robes instead of skirts? Anyway, trousers are for barbarians.

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

The Eurasian horse nomads had pants as default garb for both sexes because fuck riding in a skirt, but among more sedentary peoples some manner of skirt was usual for women for practical reasons (notably relieving yourself).

You dare assume I didn't know those? I AM THE RESIDENT HISTORY ENTHUSIAST IN THIS SITE

Screw you I was here first =3=

Alright, let's both be then.

joined Jul 26, 2016

And often usual for men, especially upper class men. Well, maybe robes instead of skirts? Anyway, trousers are for barbarians.

"Panty flash or go home"
- the Samnites, probably

...mind you both the Romans and the Chinese ended up adopting dirty barbarian trousers at least in the military because the stupid sexy things were just too practical compared to bedsheets, especially if you wanted to get serious about cavalry :P

Alright, let's both be then.

I can work with that o3o

8ldsxx8gdfh7s211
joined Jan 11, 2019

How would a girl crossdress anyway? There isn't really a lot of "masculine-gender-locked" clothing anymore. A suit or tuxedo (with a suit jacket, not a blazer) comes to mind, maybe a shirt, everything else, meanung most everyday clothing men wear, is unisex. Unlike skirts and dresses, which are (with very few exceptions) locked to the feminine. Blouses are basically just shirts adapted to female anatomy, so I'm not even sure if we should distinguish them from shirts, and tight-fitting t-shirts (similar to girly-shirts) have found their place in masculine fashion as well.

At this point it probably comes down almost entirely to intent. It would have to be something like a girl adopting a style of dress for the express purpose of passing as male, while still identifying as female. Or being a drag king I guess.

Of course, this is relative to culture. If you're in, say, Saudi Arabia, there's still clothing that is 100% masculine coded.

joined Aug 29, 2019

At this point it probably comes down almost entirely to intent. It would have to be something like a girl adopting a style of dress for the express purpose of passing as male, while still identifying as female. Or being a drag king I guess.

Of course, this is relative to culture. If you're in, say, Saudi Arabia, there's still clothing that is 100% masculine coded.

Yeah, I guess intent and resulting behavioural adaptations would be a big part of it, and I can also see how traditional clothing has a much stronger gender exclusivity in many parts of the world. Even here, in southern Germany, the traditional "Lederhosen" are still largely masculine-exclusive, despite some women wearing them on occasion (which may even elicit negative reactions from traditionalists).

If we assume that "behaviour" is part of crossdressing, I think it's rather fair to say that Kanda is crossdressing as masculine, because she's deliberately wearing gender-neutral or masculine clothing (even making sure Ookuma won't notice her breasts) and playing the part of the boyfriend.

@random
I was specifically thinking of Kilts when I noted that there were some exceptions to skirts being feminine-coded ;-)
And I agree, Kilts are masculine a.f., especially if you wear them commando, and super comfy in hot summers.

last edited at Jul 31, 2020 5:37AM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

How would a girl crossdress anyway? There isn't really a lot of "masculine-gender-locked" clothing anymore.

Well if she's deliberately trying to pass for the opposite sex rather than, say, buying male-pattern trousers simply because those have proper useful pockets like my mother does, I'd say the intent makes the difference.

But that's the thing, she -isn't-. This is her normal style, and while it accidentally led to Ookuma thinking she was a boy, she wasn't. So in this case her "cross dressing intent" consists of wearing what she normally wears while also wearing an (apparently unnecessary) corset and not correcting a misconception. That's pretty ambiguous.

joined Jul 26, 2016

But that's the thing, she -isn't-. This is her normal style, and while it accidentally led to Ookuma thinking she was a boy, she wasn't. So in this case her "cross dressing intent" consists of wearing what she normally wears while also wearing an (apparently unnecessary) corset and not correcting a misconception. That's pretty ambiguous.

Pretty sure it's the addition of deliberate deception - however nonmalicious - that makes the difference here ya know.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

But that's the thing, she -isn't-. This is her normal style, and while it accidentally led to Ookuma thinking she was a boy, she wasn't. So in this case her "cross dressing intent" consists of wearing what she normally wears while also wearing an (apparently unnecessary) corset and not correcting a misconception. That's pretty ambiguous.

Pretty sure it's the addition of deliberate deception - however nonmalicious - that makes the difference here ya know.

But is it -cross dressing- if that deception has no bearing on what you choose to wear, since "dressing" is specifically part of the term? Isn't it just a -lie- at that point, and not the specific behavior of cross dressing?

I mean you say it's the addition of deliberate deception, but deliberate deception isn't even a necessary part of cross dressing. Drag queens and crossplayers usually aren't trying to deceive anyone at all, they're just wearing clothes they like or dressing as characters they admire.

I feel like the element that makes cross-dressing what it is isn't deception, but a deviation from expected norms, be they personal or societal. An intent to deceive -can- be part of that, but it isn't necessarily.

joined Aug 29, 2019

But is it -cross dressing- if that deception has no bearing on what you choose to wear, since "dressing" is specifically part of the term? Isn't it just a -lie- at that point, and not the specific behavior of cross dressing?

I see that it's definitely a case that's up to debate and it's okay to disagree, but I think Kanda wearing a corset to, however ineffectually, hide outward signs of her being female, does constitute choosing what she wears to pass as the opposite gender.

I mean you say it's the addition of deliberate deception, but deliberate deception isn't even a necessary part of cross dressing. Drag queens and crossplayers usually aren't trying to deceive anyone at all, they're just wearing clothes they like or dressing as characters they admire.

There are required parts to a definition, and sufficient parts to a definition. Deliberate deception is not necessary to crossdressing, but if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

I feel like the element that makes cross-dressing what it is isn't deception, but a deviation from expected norms, be they personal or societal. An intent to deceive -can- be part of that, but it isn't necessarily.

Even if we ignore my argument that deliberate deception is sufficient to call it crossdressing, isn't it true that she, through the way she behaves and dresses, deviates from expected norms and is by your definition crossdressing as well?

last edited at Jul 31, 2020 7:26PM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

But is it -cross dressing- if that deception has no bearing on what you choose to wear, since "dressing" is specifically part of the term? Isn't it just a -lie- at that point, and not the specific behavior of cross dressing?

I see that it's definitely a case that's up to debate and it's okay to disagree, but I think Kanda wearing a corset to, however ineffectually, hide outward signs of her being female, does constitute choosing what she wears to pass as the opposite gender.

I mean you say it's the addition of deliberate deception, but deliberate deception isn't even a necessary part of cross dressing. Drag queens and crossplayers usually aren't trying to deceive anyone at all, they're just wearing clothes they like or dressing as characters they admire.

There are required parts to a definition, and sufficient parts to a definition. Deliberate deception is not necessary to crossdressing, but if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

I feel like the element that makes cross-dressing what it is isn't deception, but a deviation from expected norms, be they personal or societal. An intent to deceive -can- be part of that, but it isn't necessarily.

Even if we ignore my argument that deliberate deception is sufficient to call it crossdressing, isn't it true that she, through the way she behaves and dresses, deviates from expected norms and is by your definition crossdressing as well?

Eh, but there's what's normal for the person, what's normal for society, and what's normal for a specific person operating within society. Generally it isn't considered weird for a girl to wear things like pants, jeans, t-shirts, button-up shirts, and jackets. if it wasn't for her slender figure and....(ahem) understated busom, I don't think anybody would think her mode of dress was unusual for a girl. It's tomboyish, but cross dressing just seems like a high bar. I think the fact that she bound her chest with a corset is probably the closest she's come (which turned out to be unnecessary anyway)

But my point is that it's ambiguous; not that she definitely isn't cross dressing. So if it's ambiguous at all, the question becomes "when is the tag most appropriate in ambiguous situations?" If the tag is to alert to people who want content related to the tag, then using it in ambiguous cases might be disappointing or misleading. If the tag is to ward people away from content they -don't- want, then using it in ambiguous cases is "better safe than sorry". Thing is, in this case I think even the purpose of the tag itself is ambiguous, because I think both of those scenarios come into play sometimes, which further complicates the question of "should it be tagged crossdressing".

I just feel like the answer to the question is pretty fuzzy in this case.

joined Aug 29, 2019

I see no real harm in adding the crossdressing tag, even if it's ambiguous (I mean, if it weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion). It's not a trigger warning, just content information in this case. If someone looking for crossdressing manga doesn't feel that this is crossdress-y enough, well boo-hoo, they wasted probably all of five minutes reading the first ten pages or so before figuring out that it isn't for them. Now consider that others looking for crossdressing manga do feel that this fits their wishes and would have missed it without the tag. They've gained an hour or two of reading fun as it stands and have another series to follow.

I think the potential gain outweighs the potential harm.

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

The series has been up since 1 year, if people wanted to read it then they would have read it since then. And like someone said earlier, unless you talking about tuxedo/butler suit, there is not really such thing as males clothing. Everyone can wear a jean and t-shirt. You can't really talk about crossdressing if it's gender-neutral clothes.

joined Aug 29, 2019

The series has been up since 1 year, if people wanted to read it then they would have read it since then. And like someone said earlier, unless you talking about tuxedo/butler suit, there is not really such thing as males clothing. Everyone can wear a jean and t-shirt. You can't really talk about crossdressing if it's gender-neutral clothes.

To quote myself from the previous page:

How would a girl crossdress anyway? There isn't really a lot of "masculine-gender-locked" clothing anymore. A suit or tuxedo (with a suit jacket, not a blazer) comes to mind, maybe a shirt, everything else, meanung most everyday clothing men wear, is unisex. Unlike skirts and dresses, which are (with very few exceptions) locked to the feminine. Blouses are basically just shirts adapted to female anatomy, so I'm not even sure if we should distinguish them from shirts, and tight-fitting t-shirts (similar to girly-shirts) have found their place in masculine fashion as well.

To quote myself from this page:

If we assume that "behaviour" is part of crossdressing, I think it's rather fair to say that Kanda is crossdressing as masculine, because she's deliberately wearing gender-neutral or masculine clothing (even making sure Ookuma won't notice her breasts) and playing the part of the boyfriend.

[...] if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

It's more an academic argument rather than a discussion I expect to reach a good consensus on. It's mental gymnastics and I think I should stop pushing it ;)

last edited at Aug 1, 2020 9:58AM

joined Jan 14, 2020

The series has been up since 1 year, if people wanted to read it then they would have read it since then.

That doesn't follow. There are lots of series. I keep discovering old series I like, often from forum discussions.

joined Aug 29, 2019

The series has been up since 1 year, if people wanted to read it then they would have read it since then.

That doesn't follow. There are lots of series. I keep discovering old series I like, often from forum discussions.

That's a result of different reading habits. I am a very casual manga reader and far from consistent. Sometimes I read 3 series in one day (or watch 3 full seasons of anime in five days), other times I won't touch a form of media for months before doing another binge. I've been in the forum 11 months, lilliwyt only 2 months more, yet he/she/x has about 35 times as many posts on the forum. That should be enough information about how our reading habits compare (and no, this is not a value judgement at all, we just make good examples for opposite habits).
I only stumbled upon the series and a few others about a month ago when my latest binge began.

last edited at Aug 1, 2020 11:06AM

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

Idk, that not something i call deliberate and yes, that doesn't count after because it's not like she change her way of dressing. Beside a corset but did a corset is enough to count as crossdressing.

yet he/she/x has about 35 times as many posts on the forum.

He

joined Aug 29, 2019

Idk, that not something i call deliberate and yes, that doesn't count after because it's not like she change her way of dressing.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/handsome_girl_and_sheltered_girl_ch09#18

This, on the other hand, definitely means that there was an intent to "deceive". That is putting it very, VERY strongly, as there was no malice, but rather the intent to not hurt, behind the "deception". A lie as white as it gets.

Beside a corset but did a corset is enough to count as crossdressing.

I see it as proof of the intent to crossdress.

If I were to make a stretch, I could argue that the vest she's wearing here (https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/handsome_girl_and_sheltered_girl_ch10#5) and the shirts she's wearing on several occasions emphasize broad shoulders and are thus male-coded clothing by design (pretty sure they're not blouses, for example here: https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/handsome_girl_and_sheltered_girl_ch02#2).
Ultimately it remains fuzzy because "masculine" clothing just isn't as "hard coded" to a specific gender as "feminine" clothing. We wouldn't say that the girlfriend wearing her boyfriend's shirt or hoodie is crossdressing, even though, at least in case of the shirt, it was designed around male physique.

If we propose that crossdressing isn't just about clothing, but also behaviour and gendered habits, it becomes messy again. She's definitely presenting as a guy towards Ookuma, not consciously at first, but it becomes deliberate after they start dating.

This is a mess.

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

If this is a mess and it's unsure then let's not. She is just acting like a guy, like i said she didn't change her way of dressing just because she start acting like a guy. Personally i don't see why it should be tag as crossdressing when it's clearly not crossdressing. Anyway, how do you act like a guy ? There is nothing such as behaviors reserved to one specific gender.

Edit : In any case, we're just going in circles. In the end, it's the mods who decide if it's fitting or not.

last edited at Aug 1, 2020 12:40PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

If this is a mess and it's unsure then let's not. She is just acting like a guy, like i said she didn't change her way of dressing just because she start acting like a guy. Personally i don't see why it should be tag as crossdressing when it's clearly not crossdressing. Anyway, how do you act like a guy ? There is nothing such as behaviors reserved to one specific gender.

Actually, there are--it's well-established in sociology that there are gendered ways of walking, standing, sitting, talking, and generally interacting with other people. That doesn't mean every person manifests all those coded behaviors, or does so in the same way or to the same degree. But they do exist.

I am agnostic on the tagging issue--except for the obvious trigger labels, they don't matter much to me. But it's definitely the case that behaviors can be coded as gendered.

joined Aug 29, 2019

If this is a mess and it's unsure then let's not. She is just acting like a guy, like i said she didn't change her way of dressing just because she start acting like a guy. Personally i don't see why it should be tag as crossdressing when it's clearly not crossdressing. Anyway, how do you act like a guy ? There is nothing such as behaviors reserved to one specific gender.

Actually, there are--it's well-established in sociology that there are gendered ways of walking, standing, sitting, talking, and generally interacting with other people. That doesn't mean every person manifests all those coded behaviors, or does so in the same way or to the same degree. But they do exist.

I am agnostic on the tagging issue--except for the obvious trigger labels, they don't matter much to me. But it's definitely the case that behaviors can be coded as gendered.

Tagging issue aside, there's a huge amount of gendered behaviours. I kind of like Judith Butler's postulate of "gender as performance". These behaviours are obviously not reserved for one gender, but typically associated with one more than the other, same as gendered clothes, and the associations change with time and society. That's basically the difference between gender and sex. I'd like to think of sex as what I am, and of gender as who I am.

Simple examples for some gendered ways of sitting are "manspreading" versus sitting with closed or crossed legs (e.g. to not allow others to see what's under a short skirt). Gendered ways of speaking would for example be found in turn-taking vs. interrupting one another. If you've ever seen a stereotypical "men vs women" sketch, you've seen an example of gendered behaviour taken to the extreme as a cliché for comedic effect.

last edited at Aug 1, 2020 4:30PM

Im%20gonna%20fucking%20cry%20koyuki
joined Nov 5, 2017

yalls writing WHOLE ESSAYS here, im just here enjoying the cute yuri man...

Commandershepard13
1071350_639308102760295_1399509523_o
joined Mar 24, 2014

yalls writing WHOLE ESSAYS here, im just here enjoying the cute yuri man...

I know, right?

joined Dec 18, 2018

Ahh, this just keeps getting better and better.

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