Forum › Handsome Girl and Sheltered Girl discussion

Chinatsu%202
joined Jan 27, 2016

I'd enjoy this chapter more if Kanda hadn't dragged the lie out to the point where I don't really feel she deserves Ookuma's boundless understanding. The longer the lie was maintained the less a jokey "It was never a problem in the first place" resolution works and the more it feels like the lie itself should be the source of conflict rather than the subject of the lie.

8ldsxx8gdfh7s211
joined Jan 11, 2019

Now let's pull up a chair and have a conversation about "rape culture".

There is no point so you can put your chair back where you take it.

The notion that "if you do x I won't be able to control myself and will sexually assault you" is a lie made up by people who either want to excuse rape or put the blame for it on the victim. Empowering rapists is what I would call a problem of rape culture.

oh my god, are we really gonna have a discussion about this? it's obvious that kanda wasn't implying that, she would never try and do something without consent. you literally see her ask "can I touch you" in one of the last panels. pls, go back to Twitter and use that energy on real rapists.

lol, no. Just because a work contains no actual rapists, it doesn't make parroting of pernicious rape apologia beyond criticism. The idea that people, especially men, have no control of themselves when they get horny is a myth with negative social consequences, and noting when a piece of media reinforces that myth is entirety fair. This doesn't mean the person noticing it is offended, or looking for something to be angry about, it just means they are looking at the media they consume with a critical eye. Which is good.

This also doesn't mean mean that liking this makes you a bad person. I still like it. I enjoy tons of problematic shit. That's okay! If it weren't, there'd be basically no media we'd be allowed to enjoy.

012
joined Apr 22, 2014

You're taking the scene way too literally. First of all, I don't know the exact japanese in the original, but you routinely see "attack" in manga referring to consensual sexual advances. She isn't literally saying she's going to sexually assault her, she's saying she's going to make a sexual advance. I don't know how anybody reading this comic could think Kanda is the type of person that would force herself on Ookuma without consent. You are conflating an absolutely innocent scene with people who make excuses for actual sexual misconduct.

She's saying "If you strip in front of me, I'm going to want to do stuff to you." Ookuma then -literally- says that's the plan, and that she will consent if that happens. Then she does strip, and Kanda literally asks for consent directly despite the fact that she already has it. There's no assault here, nor threat of assault, or anything approaching a threat of assault. Just two absolute dorks nervously approaching the concept of maybe wanting to do stuff to each other if that's okay.

You are jumping at shadows in a well-lit room here.

Oh, I'm not talking about this couple, they seem lovely (huge lie aside) and there's clearly consent there. For me, though, a romantic sequence where the dialogue is saying, over and over again, "hey, remember how all men are rapists" without criticizing that norm is disappointing.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Oh, I'm not talking about this couple, they seem lovely (huge lie aside) and there's clearly consent there. For me, though, a romantic sequence where the dialogue is saying, over and over again, "hey, remember how all men are rapists" without criticizing that norm is disappointing.

So when we find that hypothetical story that says “all men are rapists” without criticizing that norm, as opposed to this story, which depicts that initial notion that “all men are wolves” as something that a profoundly naive and explicitly sheltered girl has gleaned from pop song lyrics, a story which couldn’t be more explicit and forthright about the need for sexual desire to be accompanied by explicit consent if it tried, that will indeed be disappointing.

The whole point of the chapter is that in this context “becoming a wolf” means “giving oneself over to mutual sexual desire,” not “being a rapist.”

LesbianPirate
Shithead
joined Oct 23, 2018

damn bitch that shit was beautiful

0iksfco
joined Apr 27, 2017

Deym

Dq96tyidseq-min%20(6)
joined Apr 29, 2019

Wait, "bore with it"? Do people talk like that?

joined Aug 29, 2019

I only just stumbled upon this gem by scanning the "college" tag entries (had my fill of high school for a bit).

I love the artstyle. Kanda's great. Ookuma's character design isn't quite for me, but whatever.

I liked the progression, and, like dear Blastaar pointed out as sharply as usual, Ookuma is finally coming into her own and may be more than just a bubbly airhead in the future.

With regards to the ongoing discussion about how the "men are all wolves" line is to be interpreted, I'd take the middle ground. It's clearly depicted as a trope, and thus a clear oversimplification, but the fact remains that it's not "challenged" per sé. On the other hand we should take into account some peculiarities about Japanese culture and, as has been correctly pointed out, the baffling prevalence of "violent" imagery and words in erotic discourse in Japanese fiction.

Personally I'm taken aback when "aggression", "attacks" and "violent" appear in a sexual context, but that seems to be a somewhat western sensibility to me. Am I wrong? I'm more than willing to expand my horizons here. Still, how Ookuma reacted in the final pages was great, emphasizing consent despite the lingo.

last edited at Jul 9, 2020 9:37PM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Personally I'm taken aback when "aggression", "attacks" and "violent" appear in a sexual context, but that seems to be a somewhat western sensibility to me. Am I wrong?

Yes. At least in English common phrases such a "I want to jump your bones" are not taken as warnings of an imminent aggravated assault.

See also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWHYwUcyhaY

last edited at Jul 10, 2020 10:46AM

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Oooookaaaaay That was... over the top.

I mean I get the concept of a character being redicuiously dense for comedy. But that was just sad.

Edit: I am really glad it worked out though. At first I thought that Ookuma would stubbornly stick to her delusion that Kanda was a boy. Then at the end, when Ookuma was getting undressed, I had the surreal thought that she would end up being a guy. It all made sense in my head. The really old fashion ideas on staying chaste during dating, The whole weird issue of Ookuma having problems identifying genitalia. I thought for sure it would turn out that Ookuma was a boy and that Ookuma's parents raised her/him as a girl for some strange reason that would only make sense in a manga. Ookuma's wacky parents would be introduced in the next chapter begging Kanda to not tell Ookuma the truth. Thus starting the next story arc.

last edited at Jul 10, 2020 1:25AM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Oooookaaaaay That was... over the top.

I mean I get the concept of a character being redicuiously dense for comedy. But that was just sad.

I would be willing to bet, given the nature of the rest of the scene, that at least some of that was an act because she wanted to get a close look at her lover's naughty parts.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Edit: I am really glad it worked out though. At first I thought that Ookuma would stubbornly stick to her delusion that Kanda was a boy. Then at the end, when Ookuma was getting undressed, I had the surreal thought that she would end up being a guy. It all made sense in my head. The really old fashion ideas on staying chaste during dating, The whole weird issue of Ookuma having problems identifying genitalia. I thought for sure it would turn out that Ookuma was a boy and that Ookuma's parents raised her/him as a girl for some strange reason that would only make sense in a manga. Ookuma's wacky parents would be introduced in the next character begging Kanda to not tell Ookuma the truth. Thus starting the next story arc.

A few people have suggested this idea, and I could see it happening if this wasn't a Mochi story. Mochi usually doesn't have guys at all (like it's honestly kind of novel that Kanda has guy friends,) and I think if a Mochi book had a male-sexed protagonist, it might be something like a divide-by-zero error on the entire universe.

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Oooookaaaaay That was... over the top.

I mean I get the concept of a character being redicuiously dense for comedy. But that was just sad.

I would be willing to bet, given the nature of the rest of the scene, that at least some of that was an act because she wanted to get a close look at her lover's naughty parts.

That thought had crossed my mind as well.

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Edit: I am really glad it worked out though. At first I thought that Ookuma would stubbornly stick to her delusion that Kanda was a boy. Then at the end, when Ookuma was getting undressed, I had the surreal thought that she would end up being a guy. It all made sense in my head. The really old fashion ideas on staying chaste during dating, The whole weird issue of Ookuma having problems identifying genitalia. I thought for sure it would turn out that Ookuma was a boy and that Ookuma's parents raised her/him as a girl for some strange reason that would only make sense in a manga. Ookuma's wacky parents would be introduced in the next character begging Kanda to not tell Ookuma the truth. Thus starting the next story arc.

A few people have suggested this idea, and I could see it happening if this wasn't a Mochi story. Mochi usually doesn't have guys at all (like it's honestly kind of novel that Kanda has guy friends,) and I think if a Mochi book had a male-sexed protagonist, it might be something like a divide-by-zero error on the entire universe.

As strong as that setup was, I wonder if that was what the reader was suppose to think. A little misdirection to build suspense. Give the reader a little got ya moment.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Now let's pull up a chair and have a conversation about "rape culture".

There is no point so you can put your chair back where you take it.

The notion that "if you do x I won't be able to control myself and will sexually assault you" is a lie made up by people who either want to excuse rape or put the blame for it on the victim. Empowering rapists is what I would call a problem of rape culture.

oh my god, are we really gonna have a discussion about this? it's obvious that kanda wasn't implying that, she would never try and do something without consent. you literally see her ask "can I touch you" in one of the last panels. pls, go back to Twitter and use that energy on real rapists.

lol, no. Just because a work contains no actual rapists, it doesn't make parroting of pernicious rape apologia beyond criticism.

I contest the suggestion that "all men are wolves" or "if you get naked I won't be able to control myself" are "rape apologia. There is a fundamental difference between telling someone, before they decide to disrobe, that if they disrobe you will want to have sex, and using someone's dress or behavior after the fact as an excuse for rape. One is a means of establishing consent, the other is an attempt to excuse acting without it.

Context matters in language.

The idea that people, especially men, have no control of themselves when they get horny is a myth with negative social consequences, and noting when a piece of media reinforces that myth is entirety fair. This doesn't mean the person noticing it is offended, or looking for something to be angry about, it just means they are looking at the media they consume with a critical eye. Which is good.

This doesn't reinforce anything of the kind, though. If anything, the opposite is true, because she says she doesn't think she'll be able to control herself, but once Ookuma starts to undress, what's the first thing she does? ASK. She didn't have to ask at that point, Ookuma had already pretty clearly stated enthusiastic consent. But she did, because she -isn't- out of control.

This also doesn't mean mean that liking this makes you a bad person. I still like it. I enjoy tons of problematic shit. That's okay! If it weren't, there'd be basically no media we'd be allowed to enjoy.

But there is a point at which the overzealous labeling of things as "problematic" has deleterious effects. There's a "boy who cried wolf" effect that comes into play. The alt-right explicitly uses overzealous criticisms to dismiss and discredit the entire conversation so they can radicalize people in the other direction. I've had perfectly rational, intelligent people in my life who I've had to reverse engineer out of awful views because their first exposure to a progressive topic was overblown mania.

Being critical is great, being overly critical is counterproductive.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Context matters in language.

Context matters in everything.

Minami
joined Jun 25, 2019

and I think if a Mochi book had a male-sexed protagonist, it might be something like a divide-by-zero error on the entire universe.

Oh well

joined Aug 29, 2019

and I think if a Mochi book had a male-sexed protagonist, it might be something like a divide-by-zero error on the entire universe.

Oh well

lol.

Context matters in everything.

What is this, a Matt Easton video?

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Context matters in everything.

What is this, a Matt Easton video?

No, it is not. In fact, it is not a video of any kind.

Please make a note of it.

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

^^ Oh, hey! Long time no see, Zormau!

joined Aug 29, 2019

Hey BV, been a while. I'm always cycling through various forms of media. Play video games for a few months, get bored with that, watch anime for a few weeks, get that appetite sated, move on to reading manga for a few weeks, and the cycle continues. Since I've now taken to at least five ongoing manga, I'll probably show up more frequently again.

@Blastaar I think we missed each other's point. I was just referring to a meme about a very niche YT content creator whose favourite word is more or less "context". I was not referring to your link at that moment, if that's what you were thinking. Besides that, I'd misread your previous response to my inquiry as agreement, not as a valid counterpoint.

I'm still not a fan of lightly making connections between "violence"-related words and imagery, and "vanilla" sexuality. Don't get me wrong, I get that it's a sensibility of mine that many people won't share (while others absolutely will), but for me "pseudo-violent" aspects of sexuality require a lot of context and ideally co-text to not come off as overreaching or downright disgusting, especially when injected via outside narration. The degree of explicit consent and chemistry that we have in this very case, combined with the inexperienced and clumsy characters makes it totally work out okay for me - they're being playful at this point.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Hey BV, been a while. I'm always cycling through various forms of media. Play video games for a few months, get bored with that, watch anime for a few weeks, get that appetite sated, move on to reading manga for a few weeks, and the cycle continues. Since I've now taken to at least five ongoing manga, I'll probably show up more frequently again.

@Blastaar I think we missed each other's point. I was just referring to a meme about a very niche YT content creator whose favourite word is more or less "context". I was not referring to your link at that moment, if that's what you were thinking. Besides that, I'd misread your previous response to my inquiry as agreement, not as a valid counterpoint.

I'm still not a fan of lightly making connections between "violence"-related words and imagery, and "vanilla" sexuality. Don't get me wrong, I get that it's a sensibility of mine that many people won't share (while others absolutely will), but for me "pseudo-violent" aspects of sexuality require a lot of context and ideally co-text to not come off as overreaching or downright disgusting, especially when injected via outside narration. The degree of explicit consent and chemistry that we have in this very case, combined with the inexperienced and clumsy characters makes it totally work out okay for me - they're being playful at this point.

The concept of being "a fan" (or not) of connotative verbal connections between sexuality and violence is rather alien to me, since emotional intensity and metaphorical violence of all kinds (i.e., lust as fire, etc.) have been connected since time immemorial without necessarily implying lack of mutual consent or approval of actual physical violence--my individual endorsement or condemnation of one of the longest-lived human verbal tropes seems rather beside the point.

Hence my emphasis on context--some uses of the trope endorse toxic contemporary cultural attitudes and others do not. I have yet to hear a convincing argument that this one does.

joined Aug 29, 2019

Hence my emphasis on context--some uses of the trope endorse toxic contemporary cultural attitudes and others do not. I have yet to hear a convincing argument that this one does.

I agree, both in regards to context being key in the wider spectrum, as well as the conclusion about this specific case.

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

and I think if a Mochi book had a male-sexed protagonist, it might be something like a divide-by-zero error on the entire universe.

Oh well

(shit i forgot about that one)

(cough) I mean, Ah, but you see, Clearly Mochi and Majoccoid recognized the havoc that would be wrought by that story about a boy who was dressing like a girl to impress the boy he liked, and so therefore they created -this- series, about a girl who was dressing like a boy to impress the girl she liked, in order to cancel out it's effects!

So as you can see I actually remembered that one-shot and accounted for it in my calculations.

(nailed it.)

last edited at Jul 10, 2020 3:13PM

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

Context matters in everything.

What is this, a Matt Easton video?

Not enough sabers or falchions.

To reply you must either login or sign up.