I feel very impotent and uncomfortable even at silly stuff like when someone does something to me without my consent like when I have something in my hand and someone playing around takes it forcefully... so being raped must feel a hundred times worse I guess. I really can't imagine it, and just thinking about it makes me sick.

So my idealized version of rape is a bunch of shit, I would never want it nor wish for other person to undergo such stuff so I don't know how my brain can have those types of dreams.

Why not? It's a fantasy in your mind; you can stop at any point or change whatever you want. Rape is a lot about a loss of control - that's just not a thing in fantasies ... otherwise it'd be a nightmare ^^;

Also, while I agree that generally those fantasies are more of the "dubious consent" type, I disagree that it always stops there. Not that I think that that's a huge problem.

I wonder what/who Natsume is until now.

Well, the entire point of fantasy is that you can keep the "good bits" while ignoring those pesky bits of reality that get in the way.

Symphogeah posted:

so being raped must feel a hundred times worse I guess. I really can't imagine it, and just thinking about it makes me sick.

So my idealized version of rape is a bunch of shit, I would never want it nor wish for other person to undergo such stuff so I don't know how my brain can have those types of dreams.

That is why your brain doesn't show you that. It shows you the idealized fantasies you are ok with. Not the actual real thing you are uncomfortable with. That is the difference. Your fantasies goes only as far as you are ok with them. And just because you fantasize about it, it doesn't mean you would want even those fantasies to happen in real life. That is the point. It is something you can experience in safe environment, without any risk.

last edited at May 30, 2018 8:48AM

Oh. That escalated quickly. Welp. I'm glad it turned out this way. I want my yuri happy. A touch of angst and drama maybe but I like my yuri with happy endings. :3

So going by that last line I'm guessing Kousaka up and pulled a Minato...?

Do you think rape is hot or something?

Rape fantasies can be pretty hot, yeah. As well as a lot of other fetishes that exist in a "2D environment", so to speak. Hence why cheap erotica, whether we're talking about books, games or movies, is popular.

I myself hate rape with all my might but I admit that I have dreams about being raped by a girl of course, being tied up and stuff (and I seem to enjoy it in the dream).. like, what the fuck brain. I heard of lots of people who have those sort of fantasizes, must be something psychological, dunno.

fantasies about being rape is kinda normal. without context, of course. as if it were a role-play or something like that...
which is definitely not the case of this manga :V this manga contextualizes the whole idea of abuse and abuser, and the confusion of a young victim with the trauma and its "consequences".

in other words: this shit is creepy

Is not rape, the girl was seduce to do thing that she doesn´t know but it was clearly allowed.

I suppose date rape drugs are all right too, then.

themusicman500: On the subject of whether the relationship in this story is being depicted positively or not, I'd say no, but with a caveat. The author is presenting an obviously disgusting and awful thing, but leaving open the question of whether there's some beauty to be found in it too despite the awfulness. It's a theme that Gen Urobochi explores a lot in his works.

You put it far better than I ever could have; thank you.

I wrote earlier about how I feel that, whether or not Jinno likes the relationship, that it's not a healthy relationship for either Jinno or Kousaka... But, at the same time, it is obvious that the relationship brings happiness - albeit unhealthy happiness - to both of them. This emphatically does not make it an okay or a good thing, but, like you said, even in a twisted situation like this, there's still some "beauty to be found in it too".

Is Kousaka preying on Jinno okay? No.

Does Kousaka preying on Jinno make Jinno happy? Yes.

Does the fact that this makes Jinno happy make Kousaka's predation okay? No.

Imagine that, a work of artistic fiction that's nuanced and complex. I guess that's too much for a lot of people, though, who would rather prefer some sort of black and white, simple plot to follow... >_>

Last two cents: I think portraying it "as is" rather than hamfistedly trying to emphasize any sort of awfulness on Kousaka's part is more effective than the latter, since it allows the readers themselves to draw their own conclusions about the relationship between Kousaka and Jinno, which is - in my opinion - a far more powerful thing than delivering a pre-developed conclusion from the get-go.

urrrghhhhjjjjjhhhh

oh god whyy

I wonder if the author is just really bad at writing romance or it's intended to be weird like this

I give up. I can't see how anybody can look at what Kousaka did to Jinno as anything other than rape. One could argue that it's just a story, so relax. One could argue that it was a positive experience for Jinno, though I think that would be a hard sell for many. One could even argue that the rape was just Kousaka's misguided attempt to help Jinno become an adult. What you can't argue is it wasn't rape. Jinno did not give consent. She is a child, to young to give consent, even she did. That is rape, both in the letter of the law, and the spirit of it. It kind of scary how many people want to believe it's not.

I'm not really counting but I only saw two

I'm not really counting but I only saw two

I guess I over reacted. it's still scary that anyone would see it that way.

I guess I over reacted.

You don't say.

Among the things I'm half convinced about in regards to this series is that the author is quite deliberately trolling for overreactions.

Wait WHAT disappeared!!!

Wait WHAT disappeared!!!

'And a special acknowledgment to the author of Niven's Law: "There is a technical, literary term for those who mistake the opinions and beliefs of characters in a novel for those of the author. The term is 'idiot'."'
- S.M. Stirling, quoted on Wikipedia

Okay that's not entirely true. Authors have been using their "fictional" characters to express their own views and opinions since the dawn of writing.

I think you should follow more author's blogs.

L. E. Modesitt, Jr. has written several posts on his blog over the years about readers sending him letters and fans at signings assuming his characters are true reflections of his ideals. They are not.

Firstly L.E.M. writes for a living. His books must sell.

Secondly L.E.M. likes to use his books to pose moral and ethical questions to he readers. To do this some of his protagonist have committed mass killings that make Hitler and Stalin look like infants.

The characters do not reflect his true beliefs, but rather reflect beliefs that he wants readers to question and judge.

Assuming that a character is a true reflection of an author's beliefs without knowing the author's motivation for writing the story is just very shortsighted. Get to know the author, then form your opinion.

Edit: To clarify your not wrong about authors using fictional characters to express their own beliefs. But not everyone does this.

last edited at May 30, 2018 8:24PM

Sure, some authors can have some agenda or praise/condemn something in their works, but assuming ever single thing is reflecting their exact believes and morals is usually bad idea. Also there are situations where authors put some ideas or themes unaware, because of ignorance or bad writing.

so wats next

There's a pretty serious difference between an Author Tract and portraying a character's subjectively valid take on things. Or to put it in very crude terms one does not need to be a Nazi to write a credible one.

Symphogeah posted:

Do you think rape is hot or something?

Rape fantasies can be pretty hot, yeah. As well as a lot of other fetishes that exist in a "2D environment", so to speak. Hence why cheap erotica, whether we're talking about books, games or movies, is popular.

I myself hate rape with all my might but I admit that I have dreams about being raped by a girl of course, being tied up and stuff (and I seem to enjoy it in the dream).. like, what the fuck brain. I heard of lots of people who have those sort of fantasizes, must be something psychological, dunno.

There is difference between fantasies about rape or even role playing rape scenario with someone and actual rape. Most people never actually imagine real rape, but rather a idealized version of it. Being taken control of, someone being a bit rougher with you, someone being obsessed with you to the point of losing reason. I guess it is similar to what submissive people look in bdsm. The point is, none of it is nowhere near what it is like in reality. I'm pretty sure nobody actually wants to be raped.

EDIT/ Got Shen'ed, but yea pretty much what Gralwer said. People seems to misunderstand what "rape fantasies" are all about.

While I don't really get it myself I can see how others would be interested in those fantasies, honestly thank you guys for telling me because I thought people here were really thinking that real rape was something sexy which made me sick.

It's like half of japanese porn...

Todd Akin wrote:
I thought people here were really thinking that real rape was something sexy which made me sick.

Belay the thought mr. representative.

There's a pretty serious difference between an Author Tract and portraying a character's subjectively valid take on things. Or to put it in very crude terms one does not need to be a Nazi to write a credible one.

Writing a nazi is easy. You take a normal person, you remove logic, reason, and any sense of human decency. Then you add a triple helping of undeserved sense of superiority. tada, you have a nazi.