She thought dating Chidori wasn't a option, so despite having feelings for her and acting on them, she didn't think she could date her and was just content with "teasing" or whatever, because she thought that was the best she could hope for. And then when she saw Chidori dating another girl she was like "Wait on a second? I could do that the whole time? Well, shit."

Quick fact / chronology checking...

Igarashi had a "he tells me he loves me" boyfriend
then met Chidori and thought she's cute
Chidori liked her too
Igarashi remembered that 2 girls was "straying from the norm" and got frightened.
At some she point got confronted by Chidori about the boyfriend
and asked about "what was there between us?"
Igarashi pushes her away (tying into the stray-from-norm thingy).
Chidori avoids her for several months (and casts an eye on Nanoha, only friends though)
Igarashi sends chocolates and note "not just as friends"
but Chidori gives them back and shoots her down.
Chidori and Nanoha happens.
Igarashi returns and tries to meddle with Chidori (suddenly decides calling herself her ex-gf)
The Nanoha appears and proclaims her relationship with Chidori to Igarashi
Igarashi takes off.

...that kinda puts the chocolate event a little too inbetween things - with the chocolates being very much an attempt to rekindle their relationship, pull Chidori back and - as the note said - "not just as friends", and all.

After that Igarashi did nothing to implicate she still thought 2 girls dating was impossible - so I'd say random's argument that Igarashi's reaction wasn't about 2 girls (despite what she said) but grasping the fact she lost the game (or round) against Nanoha, seems valid.
I mean, in the last chapter both the returnage of chocolate as well as girlfriend-nanoha are in focus before she thinks about being "rejected" (of all word-choices) twice. Like, she really tried to relationship... It wasn't entirely out of question anymore.
((She still thought of Chidori as someone to tease (first), have fun and show affection to (second and third...), so... her definition of "not just as friends" relationship is still rather twisted. Maybe she never intented a loud and proud 2-girls-in-love relationship... but then, I wonder why she even threw the "ex-girlfriend" out there...))

last edited at Sep 27, 2019 4:53PM

What the fuck sempai

That is what you get for being a bitch.

^ @KueKyuuQ

I believe I said some time ago that the chocolates were kind of a problem for any reading of Igarashi (if sincere, she’s OK with a g-g relationship, which is not borne out by her subsequent actions; if not sincere, she’s just being manipulative and malicious). And you’re right that the “ex-gf” claim is of a piece with the chocolates.

At this point I’m not sure if we’ve actually gotten much more information about her than we had before. She thinks of her own feelings as sincere, but as others have been saying, that doesn’t do much to rehabilitate her actions.

last edited at Sep 27, 2019 5:44PM

I don't fell bad for her too.

Too coward.

well I understand where shes coming from, afraid of coming out. But the way she pushed away chidori was not the answer.

Well shit happens when you get scared...and then you regret twice as much. feels bad man

Well, goddamn that sucks
Talk about being twice damned

It does in fact, suck to suck

Make choice
Suffer consequence

Well what the fuck did she expected?

last edited at Sep 27, 2019 9:02PM

Quick fact / chronology checking...

Igarashi had a "he tells me he loves me" boyfriend
then met Chidori and thought she's cute
Chidori liked her too

No. She only started dating the guy after she told Chidori she loved her. It was her way of putting distance between them. That's the meaning of the "I did nothing wrong" line.

((She still thought of Chidori as someone to tease (first), have fun and show affection to (second and third...), so... her definition of "not just as friends" relationship is still rather twisted. Maybe she never intented a loud and proud 2-girls-in-love relationship... but then, I wonder why she even threw the "ex-girlfriend" out there...))

As the translator, I want to tell you that you really, really shouldn't read so much into the specific wording of a translation. Maybe some kind of genius could recreate the original with such fidelity as to justify that kind of word-by-word analysis, but I certainly can't, at least not consistently (by the way, in the original it goes "tease", "tease(affectionately)", then "have fun").

In any case, all three verbs here are kind of ambiguous. Just the "tease" could mean anything from playing a prank on someone to hitting on them. But that's not really important, because that line doesn't tell us Igarashi's true feelings. The context tells us what she really meant. Look at her reaction on the next page: she was seriously trying to ask Chidori out.

She met Chidori, developed a crush on her, told her she loved her, then started dating her childhood friend and ignoring Chidori out of fear when Chidori reciprocated her feelings. Chidori confronted her, and she responded with "But we're both girls". Months later, right before Igarashi graduated, she changed her mind/realized her mistake and sent Chidori chocolates to try to rekindle their relationship. Chidori rejected her. Now she came back to school to try a second time.

It's not explicitly stated, but I think we can assume that the boyfriend is out of the picture, and probably has been since before Valentine's Day. Otherwise, Igarashi wouldn't have been sitting around in a classroom waiting for her kouhai to respond, she'd be on a date.

last edited at Sep 27, 2019 9:28PM

Quick fact / chronology checking...

Igarashi had a "he tells me he loves me" boyfriend
then met Chidori and thought she's cute
Chidori liked her too

No. She only started dating the guy after she told Chidori she loved her. It was her way of putting distance between them. That's the meaning of the "I did nothing wrong" line.

Then why in Chapter 44 is Chidori told that Igarashi had been friends with the boy “since they were young” and that they had been dating “for a while”?

That doesn’t sound at all like something that’s started suddenly or very recently.

Then why in Chapter 44 is Chidori told that Igarashi had been friends with the boy “since they were young” and that they had been dating “for a while”?

That doesn’t sound at all like something that’s started suddenly or very recently.

They say she'd been friends with him since they were young because she'd been friends with him since they were young. As in osananajimi. That doesn't imply anything about how long they'd been dating. And "a while" means the same thing as it does in English. In common usage, it can mean anything from a few minutes to a few weeks.

I tend to think that she'd only recently started dating him because that's the first time Chidori sees her meet him at the gates, and the first time anyone mentions him. It's possible she was dating him before but hiding it better, and started flaunting her boyfriend to put distance between herself and Chidori. Either way, I don't really think it matters when analyzing her character.

last edited at Sep 27, 2019 9:58PM

Everybody is saying that Igarashi is a b**** for playing with her kohai, crushing her heart, and then asking her to be more than 'just friends' whatever that means.And that being scared of 'social norms' isn't an excuse to hurt someone.
But what I see here is that IF she accepted Chidori's feelings while having a boyfriend is worse or breaking up with her bf having a 'relationship' out of 'curiosity' is even more worst. I think she CAN'T accept Chidori's feeling wholeheartedly without 'social norm' and her fears restraining her, that's why when she understood how dense she was and how much she lead Chidori on she choose to break her heart rather than keep her hoping.
FOR HER MAYBE, she didn't she how she was leading Chidori far away for her precious "social norms" and when she realize she wasn't ready to break 'social norms' for her or she wasn't reflective as much that's why when she was ask 'what were they' she responded what 'she knew what's right according to social norms' after some reflecting MAYBE she broke up with her bf before sending chocolate to Chidori hoping that she would be not too late but she was, when she reach college and visited Chidori under the statement of 'messing with her' she wanted to know if she made the right decision not to chase her after the '1st' rejection . (I mean to be fair they didn't told us how Chidori rejected her it could either she told her she had a gf or that she lost her feelings for Igarashi or that she no longer have any desire to have a relationship with her).
Well one thing for sure she's a useless closet lesbian that lost her chance cause 1.She was denying her feelings too much asin she was Deceiving herself 2.she's too scared to acknowledge Chidori's love 3.She have a damn bf and apparently having a long term relationship with a 'nice guy' is is much nicer than having a forbidden (according to social norms) with a kohai you met a couple of months 4.she was too much of an idiot too not think that someone might snag her away from her after bluntly rejecting her and still gave her chocolate somehow thinking that she will still have feelings for her.
Well it's just my opinion no need for debates

Then why in Chapter 44 is Chidori told that Igarashi had been friends with the boy “since they were young” and that they had been dating “for a while”?

That doesn’t sound at all like something that’s started suddenly or very recently.

They say she'd been friends with him since they were young because she'd been friends with him since they were young. As in osananajimi. That doesn't imply anything about how long they'd been dating. And "a while" means the same thing as it does in English. In common usage, it can mean anything from a few minutes to a few weeks.

Sorry, this is non-responsive—“They’ve known each other since they were young; they’ve been dating for a while” does not ever mean in English “they started dating very recently.” The entire thrust of the phrasing implies that this is a connection of fairly long standing.

There’s no real reason that any of the literature club would have previously mentioned Igarashi’s boyfriend to Chidori or that Chidori would have seen the two of them meeting before—this is a girls’ school, and the topic only comes up because the group happens to see the two of them out the window.

You may be right that the difference doesn’t radically alter our understanding of Igarashi’s behavior, but the text seems pretty clear about the sequence of events from Igarashi’s POV: she dated the boy because it was “normal,” then her feelings for Chidori created her “fear of straying from the norm,” so she pushed her away.

So I read this, and came here feeling pretty vindicated, since this pretty much disconfirms that every nasty thing people were saying about Igarashi and matches my charitable interpretation almost exactly...And here is almost everybody continuing to paint her in the worst possible light they can stretch their interpretations to fit.

I mean, this is pretty much exactly what I had suggested. She was dating the boyfriend because it's what you're supposed to do, she fell hard for Chidori, she got scared by the idea of being gay together, she regretted it and tried to seriously get together at valentines, was heartbroken when Chidori rejected her, came back hoping to win her back, is heartbroken again but left gracefully when she realized Chidori has someone new. No schemes, no trying to manipulate Chidori for her own ego, no plans to return to steal her away or attempts to manipulate her emotions or gaslight her or any of that. No intent to decieve, no keeping Chidori as a side piece to distract from her real relationship, none of it. All of the nasty negative interpretations were wrong.

This is literally the most positive possible version of all the scenarios that came out of all that discussion, and almost nobody is reconsidering their vitriol?

Yeah, she should've told Chidori she had a boyfriend. She could have tried being a little braver about her feelings. She was a bit insensitive to not realize how much she'd hurt Chidori. They're kids! Kids mess up!

Well fine, screw you guys. ;p I'm an Igarashi fan now. I'm digging trenches and setting up flamethrowers. Just remember YOU ALL DID THIS. ;p

last edited at Sep 28, 2019 1:11AM

I'm digging trenches and setting up flamethrowers.

May I recommend something along the lines of the Abwehrflammenwerfer 42? The bigger sorts get... inconvenient. :v

"...[Chidori's] heartfelt feelings..."

Yeah, the fact that Chidori returned her feelings sincerely is what scared her, because if it's just a one-sided girl crush and Chidori's just playing along for fun, that's one thing, but if they're sharing a mutual confession, that's scarier. She responded to it badly, not gonna argue against that, but I don't see why this line is so terrible.

"....just wanted to tease her, to have some fun....."

"...and show her my affection."

That's kind of an important part. She's talking about her return and her behavior with Nanoha. She came back to show that she has real feelings for Chidori and was hoping to reconcile.

"...to think she'd hate me that much..."

She doesn't know how much what she said shook Chidori or how much it stressed her out. Remember, she didn't see all the agonizing and worrying that the author showed us.

HEY, IGGY!!! SELF-REFLECTION IS NOT YOUR STRONGEST SUIT!!!
*curses under her breath*

Yeah, I know, I was advocating for Igarashi's POV or some sort of explanation from her side... I guess, "be careful what you wish for"? Or, is it "yay, we got official confirmation she's a self-centered closet-gay"? Or was this still too short and superficial to make proper judgement? ((That tear, tho... it has feelings...))

Do.NOT.fuck.with.Nanoha’s.Chidori.

And vice versa.

....Now I kinda hope Igarashi will return someday so Nanoha can resume from where Igarashi took the wind out of her sails and NanohaSmash™ her....

You mean the scene where Igarashi gracefully stepped down from the confrontation as soon as she realized Chidori had moved on, and even lied to try and cut off any further drama between the happy couple? ;p

Ah, being biased towards kyoot widdle Chidori, and with the last happy kiss-chapter, this chapter came too soon for me to be more open-minded for Igarashi's case...

That's okay, I'm here to fight on her behalf. ;p

*found on Igarashi's i-pod*

(Okay that's quality meme use tho)

Quick fact / chronology checking...

Igarashi had a "he tells me he loves me" boyfriend
then met Chidori and thought she's cute
Chidori liked her too

No. She only started dating the guy after she told Chidori she loved her. It was her way of putting distance between them. That's the meaning of the "I did nothing wrong" line.

I disagree on the same grounds Blastaar goes over. The first page is entirely about her feelings toward her boyfriend. She went out with him because they got along and she thought it was normal. She thought to herself that it's okay that she doesn't feel anything special towards him, it's fine going with the flow. This is framed as before she met Chidori.

((She still thought of Chidori as someone to tease (first), have fun and show affection to (second and third...), so... her definition of "not just as friends" relationship is still rather twisted. Maybe she never intented a loud and proud 2-girls-in-love relationship... but then, I wonder why she even threw the "ex-girlfriend" out there...))

Pretty much what was being said a few pages back. The ex-girlfriend line was probably 1 part poorly executed flirting, one part feeling out Nanoha's relationship with Chidori.

As the translator, I want to tell you that you really, really shouldn't read so much into the specific wording of a translation. Maybe some kind of genius could recreate the original with such fidelity as to justify that kind of word-by-word analysis, but I certainly can't, at least not consistently (by the way, in the original it goes "tease", "tease(affectionately)", then "have fun").

In any case, all three verbs here are kind of ambiguous. Just the "tease" could mean anything from playing a prank on someone to hitting on them. But that's not really important, because that line doesn't tell us Igarashi's true feelings. The context tells us what she really meant. Look at her reaction on the next page: she was seriously trying to ask Chidori out.

She met Chidori, developed a crush on her, told her she loved her, then started dating her childhood friend and ignoring Chidori out of fear when Chidori reciprocated her feelings. Chidori confronted her, and she responded with "But we're both girls". Months later, right before Igarashi graduated, she changed her mind/realized her mistake and sent Chidori chocolates to try to rekindle their relationship. Chidori rejected her. Now she came back to school to try a second time.

It's not explicitly stated, but I think we can assume that the boyfriend is out of the picture, and probably has been since before Valentine's Day. Otherwise, Igarashi wouldn't have been sitting around in a classroom waiting for her kouhai to respond, she'd be on a date.

I agree with most of this, except for the fact that I'm certain they were dating before she fell for Chidori. She just didn't mention him and he was never around because girl's school. I do think the boyfriend's absence is conspicuous, and from the way she's talking about him in this chapter, I would bet she broke up with him before the valentine's gambit.

Also, on the "not just friends" chocolate, keep in mind in Japan there is a tradition of giving chocolates to club members and friends. They call it "giri-choco" (giri=obligatory, in this context) This is contrasted by "Honmei-choco" (heartfelt) which is what you give a romantic interest. The note was to convey that no, this was not just a gesture as her club sempai, it was a real romantic gesture of reconciliation.

She wasn't serious. Having feelings for someone and thinking that she could act on it, but when the reality comes she goes "lol I was just messing with you" is different.

You've got the order of events backwards. She had feelings for her, got scared and ran away, and then steeled her will and came back with a serious attempt. There is nothing in the text or subtext that suggests she was anything other than resolved and serious from Valentine's on.

Nice work, Heavensrun—you’ve burnished every phrase and artfully lit every inference so they shine on Igarashi in the most flattering light possible, and beyond.

However, the stark cruelty of the phrase, “Nothing, of course,” and the gratuitous “ex-girlfriend” alleged joke will need further perfuming to fully eradicate the persistent scent of corruption.

I would also recommend some sleight of hand to convince the audience that the phrase “I made a mistake” actually is “I’m sorry I hurt you.”

But you’re utterly convincing that Igarashi is not simply evil, and that Chidori was merely collateral damage in her sempai’s personal little psychodrama.

She wasn't serious. Having feelings for someone and thinking that she could act on it, but when the reality comes she goes "lol I was just messing with you" is different.

You've got the order of events backwards. She had feelings for her, got scared and ran away, and then steeled her will and came back with a serious attempt. There is nothing in the text or subtext that suggests she was anything other than resolved and serious from Valentine's on.

I didn't say otherwise, my point is different than Igarashi having no feelings. I knew she had even before this chapter, the point is how she acts about them.
There is no proof that if Chidori reciprocated her feelings and they started dating, that she wouldn't revert to her old ways too. Well since this is a story I guess everything can solve itself easily. But realistically Igarashi is a bit of manipulative as a person, and that isn't related to her gay panic but it's a part of her character.

I'm pretty sure she will get her happy ending here though.

She wasn't serious. Having feelings for someone and thinking that she could act on it, but when the reality comes she goes "lol I was just messing with you" is different.

You've got the order of events backwards. She had feelings for her, got scared and ran away, and then steeled her will and came back with a serious attempt. There is nothing in the text or subtext that suggests she was anything other than resolved and serious from Valentine's on.

I didn't say otherwise, my point is different than Igarashi having no feelings. I knew she had even before this chapter, the point is how she acts about them.
There is no proof that if Chidori reciprocated her feelings and they started dating, that she wouldn't revert to her old ways too. Well since this is a story I guess everything can solve itself easily. But realistically Igarashi is a bit of manipulative as a person, and that isn't related to her gay panic but it's a part of her character.

I'm pretty sure she will get her happy ending here though.

What "old ways"? You mean where she was exceptionally touchy and affectionate? Because that's the only way they ever were before they "broke up". I don't see any evidence of her -being- manipulative, that's an assumption a bunch of people made when they thought she was a player. That was blown out of the water as soon as we got a confirmation from her internal monologue that she meant what she said. If you mean flirting with Chidori while not telling her she has a boyfriend that she doesn't really love, I don't think that qualifies as enough of a scheme to qualify as a character trait.

You could maybe argue that the ex-girlfriend line is a little sly, if it is indeed intended to draw out the nature of Nanoha's relationship with Chidori, but it could also just be a tone-deaf joke intended to tease Chidori. It seems pretty obvious to me that Igarashi doesn't get how much she hurt Chidori. if I was going to ascribe character flaw to her, I'd say insensitivity is more on-point than manipulativeness. (If she is manipulative, she's really bad at it.)

Nice work, Heavensrun—you’ve burnished every phrase and artfully lit every inference so they shine on Igarashi in the most flattering light possible, and beyond.

However, the stark cruelty of the phrase, “Nothing, of course,” and the gratuitous “ex-girlfriend” alleged joke will need further perfuming to fully eradicate the persistent scent of corruption.

I would also recommend some sleight of hand to convince the audience that the phrase “I made a mistake” actually is “I’m sorry I hurt you.”

But you’re utterly convincing that Igarashi is not simply evil, and that Chidori was merely collateral damage in her sempai’s personal little psychodrama.

It helps if you imagine "Nothing, of course" as being spoken with a sort of broken hopelessness rather than a casual dismissiveness. I think the ex-girlfriend comment was a tone-deaf flirt because she doesn't realize how much she hurt Chidori. That also helps with the thing you mentioned after that!

But being serious for a moment, I'm not suggesting for a second that Igarashi wasn't dumb and hurtful. She's definitely on the insensitive side, and her careless words seriously hurt Chidori. She doesn't seem to realize how much she hurt her, either. While I think both her attempts to get back together were sincere, I don't think she really appreciates how much she hurt Chidori in the first place.

But that's what makes me like her as a tragic character. She made a mistake for kinda sympathetic reasons, hurt someone she honestly adored, and is heartbroken that she destroyed her relationship with her first actual love. (I'm pretty sure nothing from that paragraph is spin, either, that's objectively what the text tells us.) And...I just really feel like if this story had been framed differently, people would have a totally different read on her.

Imagine this entire manga reframed from her perspective: (forewarning, this part is DEFINITELY spin. I make no apologies. ;p )

(Also, my first take of this I got carried away on, and it basically turned into a lengthy outline for an Igarashi fanfic. When I realized it was huge, I decided that would be pretty obnoxious, so here is a more concise summary while the longer version goes into a text file on my computer that I'll probably never open again. Fkin ADHD.)

Igarashi is the protagonist of a manga. She has a boyfriend that she's dating because they were friends and everybody seemed to expect them to get together. She meets a new Kouhai and falls for her pretty hard. They flirt for awhile, she neglects her boyfriend because she's super into this girl. She confesses, the girl likes her back.

Boyfriend shows up at school, so she leaves to pull him away before Chidori sees. (but she does) She breaks up with the boyfriend and tells him the truth about Chidori. He gets pissed off and says some nasty stuff about girls not being able to date girls and stuff. It's really traumatic for her because he's one of her oldest friends. Next day the breakup with Chidori happens. Igarashi echoes something Boyfriend-kun said in his fit (about two girls not being able to have anything between them) And Chidori bolts. Igarashi sobs quietly after she leaves.

Next is an arc where Igarashi is...not exactly following Chidori, but watching from afar whenever she gets a chance. Chidori's dealing, moving on, being happy with her friends, cutting her hair. A rival appears, but Igarashi isn't aware of it. Eventually, because their families are close, Igarashi and Boyfriend-kun end up stuck together at a social gathering, and he apologizes. He says he lashed out because he was hurt and he wants to go back to being friends and it's okay if she has a girlfriend and he was undeniably wrong. This little bit of acceptance gives her the courage to try again, so, since valentines is coming up, she pours herself into making chocolate, intend on winning her girl back and being with her. But Chidori is getting awful close to this new girl that got introduced pretty soon after the breakup.

So like, I'm not saying that's how it went, but it's a way that it could have gone, it doesn't contradict anything, and can any of you guys honestly say that if the story was framed like that the fans wouldn't be rooting for Igarashi to win Chidori back and be telling this Nanoha bitch to piss off and get away from bae? ;p

(Yes, that really was the concise version)

I know it would also totally be possible, also without contradictions, to write another version of this that makes her out to be a pretty self-centered brat (though nothing near the malicious player some people assumed she was at first) But that's my point. I can't see the reason in summoning so much vitriol towards something so uncertain.

last edited at Sep 28, 2019 4:41AM

I don’t really disagree with anything you say, and as usual your argument is thoughtful and well-supported.

I just don’t give a shit. Yes, if this story were framed differently, it would be different. But I’m reading this story, where Chidori is our precious cupcake, and Igarashi is the thoughtless, self-centered bitch who casually hurt her, then had the gall to assume that her cute, short, round but evidently unable-to-be-fully-conceptualized-as-a-real-human-being kouhai could never reject her own wonderful sempaian self twice.

So kudos to your powers of empathy and imagination. Just don’t come around Nanoha with that bullshit, or there’ll be trouble.