I’m not sure why everybody is so anxious for them to spill the beans about their relationship—we’ve gotten all this world-class cute with them keeping it a secret so far.

What exactly would be so much better about the series if they were to come out (aside from for the “progress” fetishists, I mean)?

I can only speak for myself, but I like stories where gay relationships are out and proud. It's part of the life for anyboddy that's been there (not coming out necessarily, that's each couple's decision to make, but the struggle of deciding whether to come out) and if it's shown as a positive thing and their friends are accepting, it sets a good, positive example on how people should respond if one of their friends comes out.

Also, in a series like this, where the secrecy of their dating is emphasized so continuously, it's hard not to see it as a plot element to be overcome by the end. Like, every time they say "we're secretly dating", it feels to me like the author is setting up a payoff where after they come out, they're surrounded by their supportive friends, walking hand in hand and chatting happily with everybody, and we get the payoff of "we're....openly dating", or something to that effect.

@random^. That's a pretty plausible reading, and I wouldn't be shocked if we were to eventually get evidence (i.e., Igarashi's POV) to support some or all of it.

The reason it's not my own first-order reading, though, is that Igarashi's shocked reaction to Nanoha's claim-staking announcement really seems to be genuine--"Y-you're dating, as in a relationship? But you're both girls? . . . You're really, / Truly dating?"

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/hana_ni_arashi_ch46#15

Either she's a consummate actress, or that expression says that it's the first time she's actually considered a real same-sex relationship, which would definitely rule out any romantic intent behind her return to school.

(And of course, as I seem to be saying ad nauseam, it makes those "more than friends" chocolates highly problematic.)

EDIT: Just to clarify the overall point, my read is that we're still getting contradictory signals and until we get something more definitive, it remains up in the air as to what Igarashi thinks she is/was up to in regard to Chidori.

I've been going back and re-reading the flashback chapters every time we got a new one, and honestly, my reading of it was this:

Igarashi fell -hard- for Chidori when they first met. Love at first sight type stuff. She is immediately affectionate, but also pretty sad. She never really strikes me as a player. Her expressions just seem to go back and forth between adoration and sorrow. She doesn't strike me as someone who was playing with Chidori's feelings at any point, She strikes me as somebody who is convinced her feelings can't possibly bear fruit.

I don't know why she's like that. I could speculate on possible reasons, (like a previous heartbreak or homophobic parents,) but for whatever reason she went out with her childhood friend, because that's what you're "supposed" to do. Still, the heart wants what it wants, and after she broke Chidori's heart, she was slammed with regret. She decided to try and win her back, to make it up to her, so she gave her the chocolate. I think that, too, was probably sincere. A real attempt to win Chidori over and start an actual relationship. We have zero information about whether she was still dating the boyfriend at that point, so whether she was bravely making a serious move or just trying to have it both ways is impossible to say at this point. But Chidori refused the chocolate and rejected the advance, because she had already moved on, and felt she needed to end it cleanly.

Igarashi graduated, and left. But she didn't get over Chidori, so she comes back to try and win her back again. I took "I made a mistake" as a sincere regret over hurting Chidori and giving up on their relationship. Once Nanoha shows up, she seems to suspect what's up, but it isn't until Nanoha actually says it out loud that she's really certain that Chidori has moved on. She seems like she's stepping out gracefully at the end there.

I mean, i just don't feel any sense of maliciousness or callousness. She just seems depressed and resigned. I agree with everyone that says she made her own bed, she clearly deeply hurt Chidori and Chidori was definitely right to shut her down on valentines. She shouldn't have kept her boyfriend a secret while pursuing Chidori. (We don't know if she meant to or not, but she definitely should have brought it up.) I just pity her. I think it'd be interesting to see her POV. I think it'd be pretty neat if Nanoha's boldness inspired her to find a girlfriend at college. She actually seems to brighten up a little after the declaration.

I dunno, I could be wrong, that's just how it felt to me during the read.

last edited at Aug 31, 2019 10:06PM

^ I agree with a lot of your interpretations Heavensrun, and if it wasn't for how harshly she rejected Chidori when she confronted Igarashi about the boyfriend she could even be a quite sympathetic character. However that was the point where I think she lost any chance for a future with Chidori.

I dunno, I could be wrong, that's just how it felt to me during the read.

I completely agree with you. I think she acts the way she does because she's afraid of being taken seriously. It's easier to act like that, since then if you're rejected you can always pass it off as if you were joking. If you look back at how she acted towards Chidori in the flashbacks, she's being pretty direct. The first thing she says to Chidori is to say she's beautiful. I guess you could say she was teasing her or playing with her feelings all along, but come on, look at this face. That's not the face of a cad. I think Chidori essentially surprised her into being honest and maybe saying more than she had planned on saying. For whatever reason—fear that it wouldn't work out, fear of being shunned or mocked, internalized homophobia, etc—she then felt she needed to end it and put some distance between them, which she did in probably the most fucked up way imaginable. It was too awful to be by accident, and I think you can only be that cruel to someone you care about.

Chidori is well rid of her. I don't think she'll ever find out that Igarashi was serious, and I don't think she should worry too much about her. When someone hurts you like that, you don't really need to care about why. Sometimes it's best to just cut a person out of your life.

Also, Nanoha really redeemed herself here. She cut Chidori off when she was trying to explain, because she was afraid of what the truth might be. I was worried that she wouldn't show up and then the whole series would be taken over by this mess, but no, the chapter after the problem appears it is resolved. Always nice when the author doesn't milk a cliche for all it's worth.

Also, Nanoha really redeemed herself here. She cut Chidori off when she was trying to explain, because she was afraid of what the truth might be. I was worried that she wouldn't show up and then the whole series would be taken over by this mess, but no, the chapter after the problem appears it is resolved. Always nice when the author doesn't milk a cliche for all it's worth.

I wouldn't say Nanoha cut Chidori off in the earlier chapter. She did lie that she wasn't bothered by it, but Chidori didn't really push to explain either. Both are understandable to be fair, I think at this point they've only been dating a couple months so it's not exactly an established relationship.

However Chidori really needs to nip this in the bud now and talk to Nanoha about everything that happened with Igarashi, ball is firmly in her court.

You guys are so nice. But I read these arguments, and hear the equivalent of saying, “Igarashi is a good person who made the mistake of torturing a puppy with a blowtorch and a chainsaw, and now she’s sorry.”

With me it’s visceral: “Needlessly cruel to Chidori” = one strike and you’re out.

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."

“It doesn’t matter what you meant, it only matters what you did.”

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."

“It doesn’t matter what you meant, it only matters what you did.”

...which wasn't exactly, ah, torturing a puppy with blowtorch and chainsaw as it were.

That notion is also bollocks right in the face of it; case in point, the moral and legal distinction between say accidental manslaughter and premediated murder...

last edited at Aug 30, 2019 6:58AM

You guys are so nice. But I read these arguments, and hear the equivalent of saying, “Igarashi is a good person who made the mistake of torturing a puppy with a blowtorch and a chainsaw, and now she’s sorry.”

With me it’s visceral: “Needlessly cruel to Chidori” = one strike and you’re out.

I don't think anyone is calling Igarashi a good person. At most understanding towards her behaviour, but understanding =/= acceptance.

As I think I posted earlier, I feel like she lost any chance she might have had with Chidori when she told her their feelings meant nothing because they were both girls. No coming back from that.

No one really deserves a second chance after that tbh.

last edited at Aug 30, 2019 6:51AM

"Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."

“It doesn’t matter what you meant, it only matters what you did.”

...which wasn't exactly, ah, torturing a puppy with blowtorch and chainsaw as it were.

Stipulating that we both understand what “hyperbole” is, Igarashi has shown a consistent lack of honesty, sincerity, and regard for the feelings of the person she supposedly cares about.

It’s certainly possible, as we have seen, to explain that as something other than pure selfishness, callousness or malice. At which point I would repeat:

“It doesn’t matter what you meant, it only matters what you did.”

It’s certainly possible, as we have seen, to explain that as something other than pure selfishness, callousness or malice-

And insisting on explaining it solely as those strikes me as downright boorish knee-jerk demonization. I'm trying to give the author more credit than spending this much effort writing a mere cardboard villain you know...

It’s certainly possible, as we have seen, to explain that as something other than pure selfishness, callousness or malice-

And insisting on explaining it solely as those strikes me as downright boorish knee-jerk demonization. I'm trying to give the author more credit than spending this much effort writing a mere cardboard villain you know...

“Boorish.” OK, bye.

Igarashi is a good person who made the mistake

To be fair, there is too little info about her to claim that she is not a good person or vice versa. I think, Heavensrun gave a really good insight about her character and this is all what we have. She could be troubled and mistaken young gay girl. She was wrong and I hope that she understand that, lol. It doesn’t make her a bitch to the end of her days.

last edited at Aug 30, 2019 11:51AM

It doesn’t make her a bitch to the end of her days.

No but at this end of this arc yes.She know she had a BF but still act flirty toward Chidori and end up hurting her because shedoesn't bring up the BF.

It doesn’t make her a bitch to the end of her days.

No but at this end of this arc yes.She know she had a BF but still act flirty toward Chidori and end up hurting her because shedoesn't bring up the BF.

Clueless teenagers fucking up their relationships is novel and unusual how exactly?

It doesn’t make her a bitch to the end of her days.

No but at this end of this arc yes.She know she had a BF but still act flirty toward Chidori and end up hurting her because she doesn't bring up the BF.

Clueless teenagers fucking up their relationships is novel and unusual how exactly?

I don't exactly see the point ? I didn't said it was unusal but that doesn't mean i must pity her. I don't think it was hard for Igarashi to said she had a BF to Chidori and coming month later claming she is Chidori's ex to one of her friend as a joke but like Nanoha said "Nobody is laughing" and the only excuse of Igarashi is "You were alone so i was just nice", this can be interpreted as "It was your own fault to believe i was into you".

In the end, yes Igarashi was sexually troubled if she love girls or boys but that doesn't change the fact she had hurt deeply Chidori and nearly make her refuse love fromanyone.

lack of [...] regard for the feelings of the person she supposedly cares about.

To me, that's the main reason why I dislike Igarashi.
Troubled personality or not, even while she's refusing to admit her feelings to herself or to accept them for whatever strong reasons, it's made very clear that Igarashi cares for Chidori and even claims as much. https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/hana_ni_arashi_ch43#7
Yet, she pushed her away and waited several months(!) after shooting Chidori down before trying to make up (with the chocolate). Since the note ("not just as friends") makes it clear she didn't wait that long to give Chidori some space to cool off and rekindle as friends... she still wants "something" more. Well, there's a huge gap here, both narrative and credibilty wise, but either way that doesn't sit right, in regards to treating someone one supposedly cares for.

I guess, we are trying to explain Igarashi - explain, not excuse her!
Because - at least for me - there seems to be a whole character hiding between the panels. One with at least as much depth as our protagonists!

To me the top panel here still stands out: https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/hana_ni_arashi_ch44#3
Right after being confronted about the boyfriend, there's that one panel with Igarashi. Her features are hard to read, her mouth is slighting agape (personally I find this to be an expression of resignation, I can almost hear her breathe out after hitting a crossroad and making a choice).
But notable is the background.
A diagonal tilt in fliming is often used to portray psychological uneasiness or tension in the subject being filmed. In (still) art diagonals are often used to reflect something unbalanced and also produces tension. In anime a diagonal flash is often used to present a decisive, crucial blow. In manga and anime an abstract background [like this] is often used to illustrate a character's state of mind, generally emphazising the character's feelings. Generally here strong visual contrasts tend to reflect internal contrasts or oppositions.

Make what you will of it. But I would think that this panel - not what she says afterwards - is Igarashi's [internal] point of no return...

Still, I don't think her behaviour needs justification or excuses. But explanations would be appreciated. And in absence of that... we discuss. As we do. :P

last edited at Aug 30, 2019 4:06PM

As a character, Igarashi is interesting. As a person she is toxic. If this type of person launches into someone who is not strong, or doesn't have a support system, they can do so much damage. And this is willingly. She knows well what she is doing. Because people like this dont have the guts to make a move, they get a sense of fulfillment just by knowing their target hasn't moved on from them. Oftentimes, this is what hides behind the hot and cold treatment. Some bread crumbs just so the person doesn't move on. That Valentine's card was that. She wouldn't have sent it if she was more confident about Chidori's feelings for her. And if Chidori reciprocated, the push phase would begin again.

Chidori had a good friend support system and was confident enough to stop. But if it was a damaged person instead, they would get strung along and become more desperate and needy with time.

As a character, Igarashi is interesting. As a person she is toxic. If this type of person launches into someone who is not strong, or doesn't have a support system, they can do so much damage. And this is willingly. She knows well what she is doing. Because people like this dont have the guts to make a move, they get a sense of fulfillment just by knowing their target hasn't moved on from them. Oftentimes, this is what hides behind the hot and cold treatment. Some bread crumbs just so the person doesn't move on. That Valentine's card was that. She wouldn't have sent it if she was more confident about Chidori's feelings for her. And if Chidori reciprocated, the push phase would begin again.

Chidori had a good friend support system and was confident enough to stop. But if it was a damaged person instead, they would get strung along and become more desperate and needy with time.

You're assuming way too much, though. I agree with you that there are people like that, I don't think there's enough to say that that's Igarashi. We didn't get enough of a picture to see if there's a repeat pattern of push and pull. What we saw could match that, but it's also perfectly consistent with a closeted gay girl in a resigned het relationship falling in love for the first time and not knowing how to process it.

They're children. It's too early to start labeling anybody "toxic".

My read on Igarashi is she only realised Chidori was serious about their relationship (and not just "playing at love" as Morishima-sensei memorably put it) during the break-up confrontation, and the depth of her own actual emotional investement in it only later still - whence the belated too-little too-late olive branches.

So I’m wondering:

What’s the worst thing anybody has done to anybody else in this series excluding Igarashi?

What’s the worst thing anybody has done to anybody else including Igarashi?

What’s the worst thing anybody has done to anybody else in this series excluding Igarashi?

Nanoha unintentionally kicking Chidori under the table

What’s the worst thing anybody has done to anybody else including Igarashi?

Make a mess of Chidori's feelings because of self insecurity.

Now, how would each of you fit Igarashi dropping the "ex-girlfriend" bomb onto Nanoha into your theories?

Please take into consideration that there was hardly any reason for Igarashi to view Nanoha as a rival/competition (be it romantically or just for Chidori's overall attention) unless she's REALLY sensitive, how she deliberately and in a collected manner "introduced" herself that way and her later (unfiltered) "but you're both girls?" remark while still in some state of utter shock after Nanoha made her own declaration.

Because I... well, I mean, that really doesn't look good.
a) she's closet-gay, but then why say something like that to a complete stranger? only to refute it?
b) she realized her feelings too late / by now, is serious about them so tried to make a stand, but then why be so utterly shocked about the concept of two girls dating in the latest chapter?
c) can't quite process her own emotions... and just acts out in instinctive jealousy and is unaware that she's repeatedly causing hurt and confusion to the person she supposedly adores (no instinct at all at work there?)
d) she believes she has some sort of claim over Chidori, but doesn't want to commit to it herself (because the concept is against her rational beliefs), and acts out on anyone who may even remotely be a potential rival in that regard, attempting to alientate Chidori from them, so her attention remains undivided.

Edit: this was a response to MacySan, Heavensrun & random. (I took too long to post this.)

last edited at Aug 30, 2019 9:28PM

Judging by the comments here:

What’s the worst thing anybody has done to anybody else in this series excluding Igarashi?

The author: Bashing us over the head with the girls being in a secret relationship.

What’s the worst thing anybody has done to anybody else including Igarashi?

The author: Introducing Igarashi.

last edited at Aug 30, 2019 9:48PM