Calling those bonkers, completely unfounded "theories" wacky isn't insulting, it's just stating a fact. ^^;

I don't think "repression" is a good (narrative) answer for what's going on with Ayako. That might or might not be plausible irl, but in fiction I expect certain internal logic to be upheld, and if the mother is first shown to be oblivious, and then later shown to be not-oblivious earlier, than that's a problem the narration needs to explain ...

^
I that case, only this "wacky" theory explains logically what could have happened.
They don't remember, influenced by ...something.

edit:
Person who wrote comment was not clear is it about theory or personal insult, writing nonsense.
Anyway, my next comment written under this one is obviously not "wacky" in every sense. Because I gave the facts, not presumptions.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 8:05PM

-There is a heavy subtext of past and present sexual abuse. Disassociative disorder is usually due to abuse, and Ayuko displays other red flags as well. There are problematic statements: "All the crimes I've committed" in the monologue at the beginning of chapter 5, or telling Asuka that it's "probably my fault" for her daughter's incestuous desires. And a highly codependent relationship anyway. Given that her mother is a pharmacist, with access to sedatives and depressants (including insomnia drugs whose side effects include short term memory loss, and were popular with Japanese rapists a few years ago), and demonstrates dodgy professional ethics, there is the strong suggestion that Ayuko has been clandestinely abusing Asuka, and the latter only has a few fragmented memories to inform her.

Actually, I did not start this "wacky" theory, someone else wrote it. I just connected it with Asuka's flashbacks, and strange behavior of Ayako (oblivion state).
There's more "between lines" in this manga than common eye can notice at first sight.
I'm just restraining of judging them, whatever truth is.
And I would not call it "Ayako abused Asuka", rather, drugs abused them (Ayako did not have intention to do it consciously, it happened without presence of her will as well) .
Also, there is a scene when Asuka caught Akira above sleeping Ayako (chapter 7 pg 13 https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/1_x_ch07#13 ), so it's possible that Akira abused Ayako same way, and "infected" her, something like a chain reaction, what caused Ayako in drugged state to do it to her daughter, without being conscious why it happens, and without being conscious at all...

And, when Asuka was with her sempai, it initiated her subconsciousness toward her mother (she can't remember, but her senses perceived taste, smell, touch of her mother, and she got flashbacks)

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 7:50PM

Banning is a prerogative of those in charge of the forum, but the snarkiness and speculation about hidden psychological motives are unwarranted.

Hi, I appreciate your feedback. I'd like to take a moment to respond to each piece.

Thanks to you for your reply. I understand that you are a busy person and have more than enough work to deal with. Thank you for taking the time to address these points. I'm certain White Rose will feel much better now, after reading your explanation, knowing that there was nothing personal implied against her in your words before.

There is one part in your post that I would especially like to highlight, as it actually concerns everyone in the forum and it's well worth underlining:

Germán made a poor, incoherent post. The correct response is not to refer to their views as "fecal matter." The correct response is certainly not to target and implicate another user in their poor behaviour. I would suggest in the future that more appropriate responses include; ignoring, laughing at (politely, please), questioning, and debunking.

Yes. This, this is what I'd like everyone to remember. The simplest response is always to ignore. Or, if you have the time and the stomach, you can try to reply -- shortly and politely -- and point the errors in the problematic message. (And then, I guess, brace yourself for backlash.) Many of us have been advocating the same thing for quite some time now. Even White Rose herself, funny as it seems, as she often writes to tell us to ignore a post of some user that seems unduly negative or aggressive. In fact, I do think that the real goal of the message that got her banned was to warn Jeanne that she should start ignoring Germán, else she would put herself in danger of being banned.

I hope that clears some things up. Thanks for your time, cheers.

Again, thanks to you!

^
Restrain of personal insults.
You have no right for such behavior.

... lolololol. I don't know how you got "personal insult" from me calling a theory about these characters being drugged "wackadoo", but, you know, you do you.

^
Restrain of personal insults.
You have no right for such behavior.

... lolololol. I don't know how you got "personal insult" from me calling a theory about these characters being drugged "wackadoo", but, you know, you do you.

You weren't clear in your writing is it about theory, or personal insult. There's no need to be disrespectful in disagreements.
Anyway, I already gave few facts above, on which my opinions are based. You are giving just unclear presumptions trying to deny my words, and mock to it with vanity laugh.
I'm not upset by your behavior, for "crashing" this "wackadoo" theory or right to call it "wackadoo" you must have real arguments. And you don't have it, nor will have. I'm not the one to be upset, ha ha.

plz direct ur hates at donald trump not manga :p

^
Restrain of personal insults.
You have no right for such behavior.

... lolololol. I don't know how you got "personal insult" from me calling a theory about these characters being drugged "wackadoo", but, you know, you do you.

You weren't clear in your writing is it about theory, or personal insult. There's no need to be disrespectful in disagreements.
Anyway, I already gave few facts above, on which my opinions are based. You are giving just unclear presumptions trying to deny my words, and mock to it with vanity laugh.
I'm not upset by your behavior, for "crashing" this "wackadoo" theory or right to call it "wackadoo" you must have real arguments. And you don't have it, nor will have. I'm not the one to be upset, ha ha.

Drop it, Svitac. There's been enough nonsense to deal with on this discussion that I haven't the patience for more of it.

yea no patients

^ ^
I intended to do it anyway if provocations appear. This manga is one of the most precious I've read, I also don't have a patience to enter in vain discussions. Just give my opinions about manga itself. I will not respond on provocations anymore.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 9:02PM

Boi, this turned dark...
I get the feeling I'll have to re-read the whole thing before it ends.
That flashback feels like it's dragging out a bit (and kinda started unexpected in the first place) and without notes at the beginning of each chapter and time passing between their releases I tend to forget about the intended order of events...

There were certainly some things said and implied that could be interpreted a certain (dark) way, but there has yet to be anything actually shown remotely pointing into that direction.

I don't mind hints and hidden meanings in a manga. I enjoy it when attentive readership gets rewarded.
It's just, that if this is what this manga is trying to do, it's not very good at it. There is a lot of blurry arcs and notions and if one may implications, but some 13 chapters, several character-introductions and a lot of initiated plot-points in, there's hardly anything to grasp yet...
So I guess, it's 'enjoy the ride' for now. ...and maybe a re-read will help me connect the dots..?

am effing late to the party
nice discussion tho
am intrigued by what "crime" means in this story
nice update

am intrigued by what "crime" means in this story

Probably Ayako is thinking about misusing her position , working in pharmacy (unlimited access to meds and drugs). She isn't aware what happened under influence of drugs, so she could not address anything else as a crime...Except putting child-Asuka into sleep, without any other intention (so, she thinks she neglected her child in these occasions).
Then she took her time to chill and relax by herself (every parent can't wait the moment when children are sleeping, finally), but she does not know what exactly her relaxation was under the drugs, obviously. And, she is working single mother who truly needs time for chilling from everything. And she has found her way to do it when her child is sleeping.

Manga as manga, is not dark, is very cute and sexy, but contains the elements about subconsciousness, like the "dark side of the moon", and how it reflects in reality, what is superinteresting and very deep observation of some possible behavior (like desires toward something or someone, including incest in this case and how circumstances in life can influence on personalities and behavior, even when actual persons are not aware about it ).

I'm very curious how author will resolve this "mess " about their dark past, wishing Ayako and Asuka happy awakening. They should do it with consent, this time (?) Maybe it will set them free? Let's see what author will do, I have very high expectations, this manga is precious

I would not judge Ayako, even if it's true that she unconsciously committed a sexual crime with minor Asuka (crime is totally unintentional, if crime exists in this case) . She raised her child properly, and gave her best as a single mother. Both of them are victims of unhappy circumstances. I love them both. Please author, however dark is their past, make them happy.

last edited at Jun 25, 2019 9:18AM

am intrigued by what "crime" means in this story

Probably Ayako is thinking about misusing her position , working in pharmacy (unlimited access to meds and drugs). She isn't aware what happened under influence of drugs, so she could not address anything else as a crime...Except putting child-Asuka into sleep, without any other intention (so, she thinks she neglected her child in these occasions).
Then she took her time to chill and relax by herself (every parent can't wait the moment when children are sleeping, finally), but she does not know what exactly her relaxation was under the drugs, obviously. And, she is working single mother who truly needs time for chilling from everything. And she has found her way to do it when her child is sleeping.

Manga as manga, is not dark, is very cute and sexy, but contains the elements about subconsciousness, like the "dark side of the moon", and how it reflects in reality, what is superinteresting and very deep observation of some possible behavior (like desires toward something or someone, including incest in this case and how circumstances in life can influence on personalities and behavior, even when actual persons are not aware about it ).

I'm very curious how author will resolve this "mess " about their dark past, wishing Ayako and Asuka happy awakening. They should do it with consent, this time (?) Maybe it will set them free? Let's see what author will do, I have very high expectations, this manga is precious

I would not judge Ayako, even if it's true that she unconsciously committed a sexual crime with minor Asuka (crime is totally unintentional, if crime exists in this case) . She raised her child properly, and gave her best as a single mother. Both of them are victims of unhappy circumstances. I love them both. Please author, however dark is their past, make them happy.

All of my wat.

I’ve just re-read the entire series, twice, and while there certainly are some unanswered questions about Ayako’s earlier life and motivations, the above is, while highly imaginative and inventive, completely ungrounded in anything in the text except the (translated) word “crime.”

Ayako does feel guilty about something (that Akira says wasn’t her fault).

Possibilities that come from the text include: getting involved in the first place with Asuka’s father, who was younger and her tutoring pupil, getting pregnant, for not paying enough attention to Asuka while studying to be a pharmacist, or maybe even something to do with Asuka’s father’s death. (When she refers to her “crimes” we see an image of Asuka’s father from the back, looking very young.)

It’s an incredibly common trope in Asian popular culture for someone to blame themselves or to feel extreme guilt and shame for something that they actually had only the most indirect responsibility for—things that in the West would be considered “an unfortunate circumstance” at worst are treated by the characters as “sins” or “crimes” in manga, Asian dramas, etc.

For instance, as soon as Ayako learns that Asuka is sexually attracted to her, she blames herself for being a bad mom and apologizes.

The business about Ayako abusing drugs and committing sexual abuse is based on absolutely nothing in the text. Zero.

And whatever Ayako’s “crimes” may or may not be, the text tells us they concern her dead husband, not her daughter.

(We’ve just been lectured about not being “disrespectful” in our disagreements, no matter how preposterous or inane the ideas. So I won’t be.)

last edited at Jun 25, 2019 10:34AM

All of my wat.

My thoughts exactly. It's putting way too much dark and "if" to the current situation. She work in a pharmacy, she is not a drugs dealer. Even with that, thereno way other peoples in the pharmacy didn't find about some lacking items. We don't even know what crimes she is talking about, for all we know she can just exagerrated about it. There is too much gray areas in your theory for it to work.

yea wtf shes only guilty of being hot

White Rose herself often writes to tell us to ignore a post of some user that seems unduly negative or aggressive. In fact, I do think that the real goal of the message that got her banned was to warn Jeanne that she should start ignoring Germán, else she would put herself in danger of being banned.

Aw to warn me? oh no, now I feel bad :((

Ayako does feel guilty about something (that Akira says wasn’t her fault).

Actually it was Ayako who said to Akira that “what happened” wasn’t Akira’s fault.

I think it’s some bullshit-ish thing on the level of Yagakimi: Ayako was supposed to meet Akira somewhere but couldn’t, so Atsushi went instead (and the scene we saw in the flashback was him leaving the house for the last time) and gotten killed by that one firebender… I mean car, killed by car! As result Akira blaming herself, Ayako blaming herself and everyone are unhappy. Well, until Asuka came to the rescue that is.

last edited at Jun 25, 2019 11:29AM

White Rose herself often writes to tell us to ignore a post of some user that seems unduly negative or aggressive. In fact, I do think that the real goal of the message that got her banned was to warn Jeanne that she should start ignoring Germán, else she would put herself in danger of being banned.

Aw to warn me? oh no, now I feel bad :((

Uh, I'm still here, you know. I'm not banned. I got posting rights suspended for a few hours, 's all.

last edited at Jun 26, 2019 8:49PM

Ayako was supposed to meet Akira somewhere but couldn’t, so Atsushi went instead (and the scene we saw in the flashback was him leaving the house for the last time) and gotten killed by that one firebender… I mean car, killed by car! As result Akira blaming herself, Ayako blaming herself and everyone are unhappy. Well, until Asuka came to the rescue that is.

That's a good reading of the evidence we have. Very likely.

There might be some ambiguity in certain aspects and details, but one thing is, I think, clear and certain: when they talk about a "crime" it's Atsushi's death they are alluding to.

There's no need for far-fetched interpretations for something so simple.

Uh, I'm still here, you know. I got posting rights suspended for a few hours, 's all.

Oh, goodie, whew..... when I saw banned I thought something else, lol

I was thinking about what else "crime" might refer to in these kind of stories, and one option tends to be defying parental wishes / commands / objections / etc.

Now I'm not sure that's it here (but it could be that Ayako's parents wanted something different for her), but I'd quite like to see Ayako's parents / Asuka's grandparents at some point. Well. Once they've figured out their relationship, as a sort of season 2 theme. Getting together is one thing in an incestuous relationship, making it work in the wider world an entirely different one ^^;

I’ve just re-read the entire series, twice [...]

That's passion. For leaving proper and fact-checked comments, I guess?

Also, thank you, Blastaar.
I was second-quessing my memory of this manga, but seems overall I remembered correctly. ..still gonna take your example and will re-read as soon I find the muse & time.

[...]by that one firebender[...]

I chuckled. Thanks for that, Alexrain. ...I had a long day ^^;

[...]it could be that Ayako's parents wanted something different for her[...]

Could be. Not sure which direction the author wants to take. We know hardly anything about their family, including the father. It's all still rather vague at this point. (Personally I would prefer some loose ends with the other already introduced characters to tie up before grandparents entered the stage...)
So far I tend to the "she blames herself (wrongly) for her child's father's death" theory. ...and if Akira was involved one way or another (in a way for her to lean towards blaming herself?), there could be some one-time / almost cheating involved. At least cheating would be a moral crime, I guess.

Now I'm not sure that's it here (but it could be that Ayako's parents wanted something different for her), but I'd quite like to see Ayako's parents / Asuka's grandparents at some point. Well. Once they've figured out their relationship, as a sort of season 2 theme. Getting together is one thing in an incestuous relationship, making it work in the wider world an entirely different one ^^;

Ayako's parents are dead :(
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/1_x_ch10_1#3

That said I would also very much like to see how Asuka and Ayako would function as a couple after they become one. I reeeeally hope that manga is not going to end right after they start dating.