Edit to add: Please, folks, I understand people have Strong Feelings about things but personally I'm tired of having to scroll through entire novellas as the same three people continue to duke it out...

Voice of reason.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 12:15PM

sigh

Scratch that, I do want to say one thing though.

And I just literally told you modern science, which has accepted Homosexuality as normal, still considers incest bad to a certain degree. Because of facts, not ideology.

If you think modern science is completely unblemished by political and social biases, well... you sweet summer child. I'm not even talking about incest in this case. To be honest, I hesitate to say it's even gotten better at all. Nevermind something as nebulous as defining whether something is a mental illness or not, even things you'd think are hard facts and numbers are often "interpreted" to a certain end, to put it softly.

Of course it isn't. That's why the scientific consensus exists across the globe. Even if a certain faction lets their biases flood in, other scientists have different viewpoints. They all have to agree based on the data, however. Numbers are universal and because scientists with thousands of viewpoints all look at the same data, only what is actually objective can find any consensus.
Look... we aren't talking about a hypothesis here. Not about some nebulous concept like string "theory". Not about some complicated mental illness. It's incest. Something whose negative effects we can perceive with relative ease and basic observation.

Science always continues to improve and change, but there are some things that are more or less a given at some point, like the theory of evolution or gravity. Sure, psychological consequences are more vague, because psychology is a disgustingly vague "science", but we gotta work with what we have. The results are there, even if the deductions based on them aren't perfect. Pattern recognition is still a thing.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 12:24PM

sigh

Oh please, opening your post with that? You should have done that in the first place and saved us some time even bothering to discuss this if you're going to act like some exasperated teacher trying to correct a student. I would have just left your post be for the sake of ending this, but now I feel compelled to say something!

It's incest. Something whose negative effects we can perceive with relative ease and basic observation.

Says the person who literally just said they can't get realistic figures on consensual incestuous relationships a few posts before...? Now you're telling me that measuring the psychological aspects of consensual incestuous relationships can be done with relative ease?

Of course the genetics side of it is measurable, but if you're going to harp on that point further I'd have to assume you uh, didn't read anything I've been saying in regards to that. It can be mitigated, just as much as those with genetic disorders have their conditions mitigated. And even those with little to no risk at all like cousins don't exactly get a free pass, even in states where it's legal, it's still looked up on with a great deal of stigma. Nor does it address the stigmatization of homosexual incest, etc. which is stigmatized even by those who are accepting of homosexuality.

The rest of your post is mostly irrelevant to the main discussion so I'm not going to argue about the fallibility of modern science for the sake of brevity.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 12:37PM

I'm now vetoing this entire conversation. It's gone on past the point where you both were going to stop, and since neither of you seem capable of doing so I'll help out.

BugDevil and Minalinsky, shaddap!

Well that is a relief. Although I guess we can still continue this here https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/10103-dynasty-cafe-a-home-for-off-topic-discussion-where-everyone-s-welcome?page=335
I'll at least try to give my final reply there.

I'm now vetoing this entire conversation. It's gone on past the point where you both were going to stop, and since neither of you seem capable of doing so I'll help out.

BugDevil and Minalinsky, shaddap!

B-but he started it!

Nah, jokes aside, I think I'm done. Feel free to leave a reply in that thread but the equivalent of getting water splashed in your face kinda dampens things so I think I'm going to do something else equally unproductive.

Nah, jokes aside, I think I'm done. Feel free to leave a reply in that thread but the equivalent of getting water splashed in your face kinda dampens things so I think I'm going to do something else equally unproductive.

Nezchan is famously skilled with the water hose.

Nah, jokes aside, I think I'm done. Feel free to leave a reply in that thread but the equivalent of getting water splashed in your face kinda dampens things so I think I'm going to do something else equally unproductive.

Nezchan is famously skilled with the water hose.

Wet T-shirt contest is next weekend, be there!

Nezchan is famously skilled with the water hose.

Wet T-shirt contest is next weekend, be there!

As long as we're allowed to wear black on black...

Ayaka-San thinks her daughter is a delicious kind of cute

Edit to add: Please, folks, I understand people have Strong Feelings about things but personally I'm tired of having to scroll through entire novellas as the same three people continue to duke it out...

...meantime, I am very entertained reading these kind of discussions >.>

Adding my two cents to that discussion,
I found this article interesting (albeit, it focuses on cousins)
https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-inbreeding-really-isnt-as-bad-as-you-think-it-is-5863666

We live at a time where we are so aware of potential genetic diseases, that perfectly healthy and un-related couples can (depending on your country, expensively) get themselves checked for a wide array of them, because we know the respective genetic markers might exist in anyone - but more often they are not. That applies to relatives as well. They might have 'bad genes' which would if present result in an increased chance of their offspring having the same "bad genes" with an increased chance of the actual disease presenting itself (heredity transmission). Non-related parents may not even be aware of themselves having a -shared- particular genetic disease and combined increased risk for their child - and there is no law sending all young couples to get themselves tested in advance, just in case. (Because, that would leap back to the already made eugentics slippery slope.)

Please note, that "inbreeding depression" is not refering to mental health of incest-children.
Regarding the latter, there are vastly conflicting studies about incest's effect on the offspring's mental health, depending on pre-existing harmful genetic markers in the parents and for how many generations the inbreeding lasted and many other factors

"Inbreeding avoidance" is a hypothesis (which is "a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation") and not a proven fact. However for siblings growing up together there may be an effect in place which is called the "Westermarck effect" (another hypothsis, claiming a "reverse imprinting", which also seems to -usually- work with non-relatives growing up together - and there's a counter-argument to be made, that growing up in the same enviroment doesn't equal being raised with the same nurturing - which e.g. a simple difference/segregation in parental approach based on gender could suffice), whereas relatives that meet as adults may experience GSA (genetic sexual attraction - but as to why, there are only unproven theories).
The human psyche is very complex and despite all efforts highly unexplored. Both on a merely mental as well as physiological level (in this case, potential olfactory influences in choice of mating partner).

Psychological stress on related couples is not inherent per se, but caused by their socialized sexual and moral structures (taboos).

Edit: I swear, I started writing this (went away and got distracted a bit, beofre posting it) before we were told to stop!
I guess, I'll be there for the wet T-contest?

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 2:29PM by Nezchan

Holy Jesus, ya'll have more issues than the fictional characters. All I was hoping to do was confirm if she realized she thought her daughter looked delicious and be happy over a new chapter, but its like ya all went full blown crazy.

Holy Jesus, ya'll have more issues than the fictional characters. All I was hoping to do was confirm if she realized she thought her daughter looked delicious and be happy over a new chapter, but its like ya all went full blown crazy.

Welcome to Dynasty? XD

I am still getting confused with the timeline here. As someone else mentioned, if this "delicious"-epiphany happened in the past, then why was she so oblivious of her own attraction to her in the (beginning of) the present?

I am still getting confused with the timeline here. As someone else mentioned, if this "delicious"-epiphany happened in the past, then why was she so oblivious of her own attraction to her in the (beginning of) the present?

That's what repression does to someone.

alex whens the next ch and translation coming

Translation, I wouldn't know, but the author stated on their fanbox that the next chapter's coming on the 28th.

Thanks to Goggled Anon swiftness translation usually ready in about 12-24 hours from the time of release. Typesetting on the other hand... depending greatly on the amount of free time current typesetter have and may take up to few weeks (for example last chapter was released by Taiyaki on May 31st).

How unfair. I also worked hard on my mega-posts of abstract cultural commentary, thank you very much.

Personally I really appreciate your mega-posts of abstract cultural commentary or MPACC for short. Good job. And BugDevil too for that matter (though I don't agree with his point of view at all).

To be honest, I'm slightly surprised anyone else was reading it at all. But thanks.

Many people were reading you, trust me on that one. Admiring you, too.

I remember having many such long debates, in other places, in other times. Trying to explain the facts of neurological development to anti-abortionists, for example. (You can imagine what good it did.) Or trying to teach to anti-sex fundies the scientific truth on children sexuality ⎯ telling them about the emotional and sexual development of children from the point of view of modern anthropology, psychology and sexology. (All I got for my efforts was being called a pedophile a hundred times.) At some point, I decided life is too short to waste it on unpleasant, unremitting forum arguments that never lead anywhere, and I just stopped bothering.

You were really amazing, displaying such energy and drive to keep arguing in a calm, rational and methodical way, clarifying the issues and laying down the facts, reply after reply, to the very end. That was a read I really enjoyed. Well done!

Also, since I'm at it ⎯ Alexrain: your post on the frequency of autosomal recessive disease for the children of relatives was solid, conclusive, and closed the discussion on that issue. Kudos to you too.

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 6:34PM by Nezchan

Dang I know how you feel mother, she’s way too cute. It’s almost a shame that this is just a flashback, but I guess her being older decreases the odds of any potential relationship getting too psychological/tragic

Also, since I'm at it ⎯ Alexrain: your post on the frequency of autosomal recessive disease for the children of relatives was solid, conclusive, and closed the discussion on that issue. Kudos to you too.

I’m as much in favor of intelligent, rational discourse as the next person, but the topic of autosomal recessive disease, however superbly handled in its own right, really is (pending the author’s hypothetical sudden insertion of cutting-edge lesbian-science-babies technology into a narrative hitherto lacking such) irrelevant to the story itself so far.

Does anyone understand the end of the new chapter? Why Ayako loses her appetite?

I was like you: I didn't understand at first.
Actually, I strongly suspect we two weren't the only ones, lol.

Then I came to the forum and I saw these posts by Jeanne and shadesofgreymoon:

https://i.ibb.co/cg8FJnV/1-X1-HALF09b.jpg

and

https://i.imgur.com/vfIjsGv.jpg

And then I understood. :-D

Does anyone understand the end of the new chapter? Why Ayako loses her appetite?

I was like you: I didn't understand at first.
Actually, I strongly suspect we two weren't the only ones, lol.

Then I came to the forum and I saw these posts by Jeanne and shadesofgreymoon:

https://i.ibb.co/cg8FJnV/1-X1-HALF09b.jpg

and

https://i.imgur.com/vfIjsGv.jpg

And then I understood. :-D

Aw shucks thankies! :)))

Fairypixie24

Also, since I'm at it ⎯ Alexrain: your post on the frequency of autosomal recessive disease for the children of relatives was solid, conclusive, and closed the discussion on that issue. Kudos to you too.

Why, thank you. The subject of genetics simply happened to be close enough to my speciality (which is molecular biology btw).

Blastaar

pending the author’s hypothetical sudden insertion of cutting-edge lesbian-science-babies technology into a narrative hitherto lacking such

You'll never know. Considering Asuka's infatuation with genetics (she was reading Richard Dawkins' "The selfish gene" of all things!) and her possible personal interest in the subject of said lesbian-science-babies she may be the one to discover such technology.

You'll never know. Considering Asuka's infatuation with genetics (she was reading Richard Dawkins' "The selfish gene" of all things!) and her possible personal interest in the subject of said lesbian-science-babies she may be the one to discover such technology.

True—at which point the subject would be transformed into being on-topic. :)

So the implication is that Ayako realized ... something ... even as Asuka was still in middle school? Does that really make sense looking back at the first chapters, where she seemed fairly oblivious? :?

Well, she is really like in "half-dreaming" state, and there's a new theory spreading around how she (working in pharmacy) used some stuff and probably committed some crimes in such a state, putting them both under influences of some stuff.
So, Asuka's flashback about Ayako while she was with sempai is her subconscious "memory".
Parallel, Ayako experiences some strange realizations during her lunch (and she acted in bed very strange (half-"possesed"). It's very possible something happened between them, but they don't know. And now subconscious "context" of both, appears finding the way.

Banning is a prerogative of those in charge of the forum, but the snarkiness and speculation about hidden psychological motives are unwarranted.

Hi, I appreciate your feedback. I'd like to take a moment to respond to each piece.

but the snarkiness...[is] unwarranted

I have no intention of coming across as snarky, there's really no reason for me to be. I'm delivering notice of a ban, nothing more. Upon rereading my post, I do see that I may have unintentionally come off in a particular way. Please rest assured, the snark was unintentional, and I'll be more careful next time.

and speculation about hidden psychological motives [is] unwarranted.

This part confused me a little bit, but I imagine you're referring to my writing, "personal issues plaguing you are not of interest to users..." I do not mean to suggest that some unfortunate circumstance affecting White Rose as an individual is responsible for their actions. Nor do I mean to ascribe any particular "hidden" motivation for their actions. I apologise if my words were read as such. I agree that such speculation is unwarranted and additionally, damaging to discourse generally.
They have openly displayed a specific, targeted distaste for BugDevil, on multiple occasions. From my perspective, this is a personal issue, is of little relevance to the discussion at hand, and is unnecessary in general terms.

Two persons who disliked this story came here, to this thread, to write in strong terms about their dislike. White Rose disapproved of it. That's all her reason.

I appreciate the negative feelings associated with those users, and those doing it repeatedly or intentionally to flame may also be disciplined. Germán made a poor, incoherent post. The correct response is not to refer to their views as "fecal matter." The correct response is certainly not to target and implicate another user in their poor behaviour. I would suggest in the future that more appropriate responses include; ignoring, laughing at (politely, please), questioning, and debunking.

I hope that clears some things up. Thanks for your time, cheers.

So the implication is that Ayako realized ... something ... even as Asuka was still in middle school? Does that really make sense looking back at the first chapters, where she seemed fairly oblivious? :?

Well, she is really like in "half-dreaming" state, and there's a new theory spreading around how she (working in pharmacy) used some stuff and probably committed some crimes in such a state, putting them both under influences of some stuff.
So, Asuka's flashback about Ayako while she was with sempai is her subconscious "memory".
Parallel, Ayako experiences some strange realizations during her lunch (and she acted in bed very strange (half-"possesed"). It's very possible something happened between them, but they don't know. And now subconscious "context" of both, appears finding the way.

That is... completely wackadoo. lol

Personally I think Ayaka just had that moment I think all parents have--".... oh good lord my child is growing up and into a sexual being", probably helped quite a bit by her subconscious picking up on Asuka's behavior that gave away exactly what she'd been doing in her bed. Maybe that also flipped A Forbidden Switch in her head that was quickly suppressed and then repressed--but it will presumably re-emerge at some point in the future (at least according to the author).

And poor Asuka has to endure those kinds of feelings without being able to talk to anyone about them. I actually feel really bad for the kid, those changes are rough enough to go through, having to do it while trying to navigate a blossoming attraction to a parent is just unfathomable for me.

Still super curious how the mysterious senpai fits into the whole thing.