Hormonal teenagers ARE a pain in the ass lol. And I don't particularly care about defending a character so much as I can't comprehend "attacking" her. She's a well written complex flawed character. She's not failing to meet any of the requirements of a character, even if she's definitely failing to meet the requirements of an "ethical girlfriend," cuz this ain't a story about ethical girlfriends. Tbh, a story about ethical girlfriends sounds pretty boring. Yuni's job as a character is to be interesting and entertaining, and imo she's doing great at that.

Hormonal teenagers ARE a pain in the ass lol. And I don't particularly care about defending a character so much as I can't comprehend "attacking" her. She's a well written complex flawed character. She's not failing to meet any of the requirements of a character, even if she's definitely failing to meet the requirements of an "ethical girlfriend," cuz this ain't a story about ethical girlfriends. Tbh, a story about ethical girlfriends sounds pretty boring. Yuni's job as a character is to be interesting and entertaining, and imo she's doing great at that.

Yeah, she's great. I'm also a bit confused by the suggestion that Yuni hasn't received much development. I'm not sure what that might mean. She may not have developed in the way some might want but that's not a requirement for narrative development. She's had the most development, rivaled only by her "partner in crime."

last edited at Apr 1, 2024 9:27AM

Hormonal teenagers ARE a pain in the ass lol. And I don't particularly care about defending a character so much as I can't comprehend "attacking" her. She's a well written complex flawed character. She's not failing to meet any of the requirements of a character, even if she's definitely failing to meet the requirements of an "ethical girlfriend," cuz this ain't a story about ethical girlfriends. Tbh, a story about ethical girlfriends sounds pretty boring. Yuni's job as a character is to be interesting and entertaining, and imo she's doing great at that.

I suppose by this definition, most of the stories on this site are pretty boring.

Hormonal teenagers ARE a pain in the ass lol. And I don't particularly care about defending a character so much as I can't comprehend "attacking" her. She's a well written complex flawed character. She's not failing to meet any of the requirements of a character, even if she's definitely failing to meet the requirements of an "ethical girlfriend," cuz this ain't a story about ethical girlfriends. Tbh, a story about ethical girlfriends sounds pretty boring. Yuni's job as a character is to be interesting and entertaining, and imo she's doing great at that.

Yeah, she's great. I'm also a bit confused by the suggestion that Yuni hasn't received much development. I'm not sure what that might mean. She may not have developed in the way some might want but that's not a requirement for narrative development. She's had the most development, rivaled only by her "partner in crime."

It's the traditional equivocation/ambiguity/confusion between "character development" defined as;

• Character grows and changes as a person (presumptively for "the better," whatever that may mean in a given context) because of experiences in the story

• Different aspects of a character are revealed or explained

The first one is something the character (i.e., the imaginary person) does, the second is done by the author to the character for the sake of readers.

Since I have little interest in characters as imaginary friends and I do care about how stories are told, I generally don't have much investment in whether an imaginary person "changes for the better" or not.

Hormonal teenagers ARE a pain in the ass lol. And I don't particularly care about defending a character so much as I can't comprehend "attacking" her. She's a well written complex flawed character. She's not failing to meet any of the requirements of a character, even if she's definitely failing to meet the requirements of an "ethical girlfriend," cuz this ain't a story about ethical girlfriends. Tbh, a story about ethical girlfriends sounds pretty boring. Yuni's job as a character is to be interesting and entertaining, and imo she's doing great at that.

Yeah, she's great. I'm also a bit confused by the suggestion that Yuni hasn't received much development. I'm not sure what that might mean. She may not have developed in the way some might want but that's not a requirement for narrative development. She's had the most development, rivaled only by her "partner in crime."

It's the traditional equivocation/ambiguity/confusion between "character development" defined as;

• Character grows and changes as a person (presumptively for "the better," whatever that may mean in a given context) because of experiences in the story

• Different aspects of a character are revealed or explained

The first one is something the character (i.e., the imaginary person) does, the second is done by the author to the character for the sake of readers.

Since I have little interest in characters as imaginary friends and I do care about how stories are told, I generally don't have much investment in whether an imaginary person "changes for the better" or not.

Definitely. I picked up on that too.

I don't believe these arguments were made in good faith. My use of the term "development" clearly referred to the growth and change of a character as a person due to experiences within the story - character development. My argument was entirely consistent with that definition. I pointed out that Yuni remains as selfish now as she was at the start, illustrating a lack of character growth or change. This seems like a deliberate misinterpretation of my words.

I don't believe these arguments were made in good faith. My use of the term "development" clearly referred to the growth and change of a character as a person due to experiences within the story - character development. My argument was entirely consistent with that definition. I pointed out that Yuni remains as selfish now as she was at the start, illustrating a lack of character growth or change. This seems like a deliberate misinterpretation of my words.

Yuni has changed. She is not the same person now as she was before. She has developed quite a bit. No matter which angle we attack this from, your clarification doesn't change much. Whether you're realizing it or not, your choice of words seems to imply a certain idea about what counts as development. I also don't know why anyone would deliberately misinterpret something. We don't even know each other and it's a relaxed, casual discussion. Why would anyone do that?

last edited at Apr 1, 2024 5:03PM

Yuni is maybe selfish, but the author also gave her guilt and gave her empathy. Sometimes, people can't help but do selfish things and are rattled with guilt, but they would do it again because there's something deeper compelling them.

Yuni is more complex than people give her credit for, because they're furious at her cheating. I seriously don't get why people get mad at fictional characters for cheating on their partner. They get invested emotionally in a cheating that has actually nothing to do with them, like they project hard on the characters. It's unhealthy.

Take the characters as what they are: fictional. Relax and enjoy the drama.

Hormonal teenagers ARE a pain in the ass lol. And I don't particularly care about defending a character so much as I can't comprehend "attacking" her. She's a well written complex flawed character. She's not failing to meet any of the requirements of a character, even if she's definitely failing to meet the requirements of an "ethical girlfriend," cuz this ain't a story about ethical girlfriends. Tbh, a story about ethical girlfriends sounds pretty boring. Yuni's job as a character is to be interesting and entertaining, and imo she's doing great at that.

I suppose by this definition, most of the stories on this site are pretty boring.

A manga can have ethical girlfriends without the story being about ethical girlfriends. I don't think there's anything morally questionable to the relationship in "The Guy She Was Interested in Wasn't a Guy At All" for example (despite the occasional transphobic rhetoric that would pop up in the comments early on of people accusing Mitsuki of "tricking" Aya about her "real" gender). But it's not a story about ethical or unethical behavior it's a story about two punk teenagers who felt isolated finding solidarity and romance and learning to express themselves through Western rock music.

I don't believe these arguments were made in good faith. My use of the term "development" clearly referred to the growth and change of a character as a person due to experiences within the story - character development. My argument was entirely consistent with that definition. I pointed out that Yuni remains as selfish now as she was at the start, illustrating a lack of character growth or change. This seems like a deliberate misinterpretation of my words.

"Could I be wrong or expressed myself poorly? No, it is the entire rest of the comment thread who deliberately misinterpreted me"

last edited at Apr 1, 2024 3:22PM

I don't believe these arguments were made in good faith. My use of the term "development" clearly referred to the growth and change of a character as a person due to experiences within the story - character development. My argument was entirely consistent with that definition. I pointed out that Yuni remains as selfish now as she was at the start, illustrating a lack of character growth or change. This seems like a deliberate misinterpretation of my words.

Project about "bad faith" much? The entire story is about Yuni's changes as a character--her discovery of what she does and doesn't want in a relationship, of her own sexual proclivities, etc.

You started this discussion by demanding that readers enumerate Yuni's positive qualities, and then promptly scorned the answers as "shallow arguments," as if only those aspects of Yuni's character that meet your personal moral standards really count as "development."

To me the expectation that a character must become a "better person" epitomizes a shallow conception of what "character development" means.

I don't believe these arguments were made in good faith. My use of the term "development" clearly referred to the growth and change of a character as a person due to experiences within the story - character development. My argument was entirely consistent with that definition. I pointed out that Yuni remains as selfish now as she was at the start, illustrating a lack of character growth or change. This seems like a deliberate misinterpretation of my words.

Project about "bad faith" much? The entire story is about Yuni's changes as a character--her discovery of what she does and doesn't want in a relationship, of her own sexual proclivities, etc.

You started this discussion by demanding that readers enumerate Yuni's positive qualities, and then promptly scorned the answers as "shallow arguments," as if only those aspects of Yuni's character that meet your personal moral standards really count as "development."

To me the expectation that a character must become a "better person" epitomizes a shallow conception of what "character development" means.

I believe you're arguing in bad faith, Blaastar, and persisting in doing so.

I presented an argument about how I perceive Yuni's lack of significant character development since the beginning of the story. You came in asserting that I'm using the term incorrectly, despite your argument being unrelated to what I was trying to convey, as I further clarified in my subsequent post. I don't think it's necessary to continue debating that point.

I firmly believe that an argument based solely on physical attractiveness and sexual compatibility is superficial. Let's agree to disagree on that.

Whether the character development is positive or negative doesn't matter; there's no inherent morality to it. Thus far, I haven't seen any convincing arguments that Yuni has changed. She still exhibits self-centered behavior, lacks communication skills, blames others, and is willing to disregard others' feelings. Moreover, I haven't observed her expressing any sense of remorse in her actions or thoughts, whereas for instance Fuuko has demonstrated meaningful character growth.

Yuri_book_club posted:

Whether the character development is positive or negative doesn't matter; there's no inherent morality to it. Thus far, I haven't seen any convincing arguments that Yuni has changed. She still exhibits self-centered behavior, lacks communication skills, blames others, and is willing to disregard others' feelings. Moreover, I haven't observed her expressing any sense of remorse in her actions or thoughts, whereas for instance Fuuko has demonstrated meaningful character growth.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch21#4
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch21#26
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch21#25
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch23#23

Sorry, I call this "character development". In the previous chapters, Yuni felt guilt because she was cheating on Nanase.

In later chapters, she now clearly feels guilt and remorse because she wronged Fuuko as much as she wronged Nanase, so she's wavering in her previous decision to stick with Nanase. She's not blaming Fuuko or Nanase anymore, she's blaming herself.

She's not so "self-centered" as you make her out to be. She evolved from "bitching on twitter about her gf" to "Maybe I went too far and hurt people". You can eventually pretend it's for self-satisfaction, but then it'd mean admitting that Yuni's character has depth. You have your own anti-Yuni bias and you refuse to see any depth in her character. It's your right, but there's no one more blind than one who refuses to see.

last edited at Apr 2, 2024 7:29AM

Yuri_book_club posted:

Whether the character development is positive or negative doesn't matter; there's no inherent morality to it. Thus far, I haven't seen any convincing arguments that Yuni has changed. She still exhibits self-centered behavior, lacks communication skills, blames others, and is willing to disregard others' feelings. Moreover, I haven't observed her expressing any sense of remorse in her actions or thoughts, whereas for instance Fuuko has demonstrated meaningful character growth.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch21#4
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch21#26
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch21#25
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch23#23

Sorry, I call this "character development". In the previous chapters, Yuni felt guilt because she was cheating on Nanase.

In later chapters, she now clearly feels guilt and remorse because she wronged Fuuko as much as she wronged Nanase, so she's wavering in her previous decision to stick with Nanase. She's not blaming Fuuko or Nanase anymore, she's blaming herself.

She's not so "self-centered" as you make her out to be. She evolved from "bitching on twitter about her gf" to "Maybe I went too far and hurt people". You can eventually pretend it's for self-satisfaction, but then it'd mean admitting that Yuni's character has depth. You have your own anti-Yuni bias and you refuse to see any depth in her character. It's your right, but there's no one more blind than one who refuses to see.

I appreciate that you're the first one to make an argument based on the source material, and that's commendable. I'm open to changing my opinion or conceding a point if the argument has merit.

However, all of your links are about Yuni feeling guilty about hurting Fuuko, and I don't see how that indicates genuine remorse on her part. She seems more concerned about not choosing Fuuko rather than hurting her girlfriend. So the argument is that because she feels remorseful about hurting Fuuko, who was her partner in crime and was acting like a crazy person, that somehow demonstrates her character development? She's suddenly full of empathy and remorse, and she's grown so much?

It's true that Yuni did acknowledge that she may have gone too far, which she definitely did. The way she and Fuuko acted was pretty disgusting. But there hasn't been any significant follow-up on that, even though Nanase is trying to talk to her and give her a second chance. The latest we saw is Yuni running away to cheat again. So, nothing learned.

And, to be honest, I don't have a good opinion of Yuni. I wouldn't wish her as a girlfriend on my worst enemy. I don't see anything positive about her. She lacks interests, friends, or any discernible personality. She is needy to the extreme. Even Fuuko deserves better.

I don't believe these arguments were made in good faith. My use of the term "development" clearly referred to the growth and change of a character as a person due to experiences within the story - character development. My argument was entirely consistent with that definition. I pointed out that Yuni remains as selfish now as she was at the start, illustrating a lack of character growth or change. This seems like a deliberate misinterpretation of my words.

Project about "bad faith" much? The entire story is about Yuni's changes as a character--her discovery of what she does and doesn't want in a relationship, of her own sexual proclivities, etc.

You started this discussion by demanding that readers enumerate Yuni's positive qualities, and then promptly scorned the answers as "shallow arguments," as if only those aspects of Yuni's character that meet your personal moral standards really count as "development."

To me the expectation that a character must become a "better person" epitomizes a shallow conception of what "character development" means.

I believe you're arguing in bad faith, Blaastar, and persisting in doing so.

I presented an argument about how I perceive Yuni's lack of significant character development since the beginning of the story. You came in asserting that I'm using the term incorrectly, despite your argument being unrelated to what I was trying to convey, as I further clarified in my subsequent post. I don't think it's necessary to continue debating that point.

I firmly believe that an argument based solely on physical attractiveness and sexual compatibility is superficial. Let's agree to disagree on that.

Whether the character development is positive or negative doesn't matter; there's no inherent morality to it. Thus far, I haven't seen any convincing arguments that Yuni has changed. She still exhibits self-centered behavior, lacks communication skills, blames others, and is willing to disregard others' feelings. Moreover, I haven't observed her expressing any sense of remorse in her actions or thoughts, whereas for instance Fuuko has demonstrated meaningful character growth.

Sexual compatibility is definitely not just "superficial," it can solely make or break a relationship. After all of everything else is fine but you're not sexually compatible, why not just be friends?
You also ignored a full half of the points I made for why Fuuko things Yuni is a desirable partner after you asked for them, the two that are specifically about their emotional connection, and then you claim that the only points are "superficial". Are you sure it's everyone else working in bad faith here?
https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/posts/899535

I don't believe these arguments were made in good faith. My use of the term "development" clearly referred to the growth and change of a character as a person due to experiences within the story - character development. My argument was entirely consistent with that definition. I pointed out that Yuni remains as selfish now as she was at the start, illustrating a lack of character growth or change. This seems like a deliberate misinterpretation of my words.

Project about "bad faith" much? The entire story is about Yuni's changes as a character--her discovery of what she does and doesn't want in a relationship, of her own sexual proclivities, etc.

You started this discussion by demanding that readers enumerate Yuni's positive qualities, and then promptly scorned the answers as "shallow arguments," as if only those aspects of Yuni's character that meet your personal moral standards really count as "development."

To me the expectation that a character must become a "better person" epitomizes a shallow conception of what "character development" means.

I believe you're arguing in bad faith, Blaastar, and persisting in doing so.

I presented an argument about how I perceive Yuni's lack of significant character development since the beginning of the story. You came in asserting that I'm using the term incorrectly, despite your argument being unrelated to what I was trying to convey, as I further clarified in my subsequent post. I don't think it's necessary to continue debating that point.

I firmly believe that an argument based solely on physical attractiveness and sexual compatibility is superficial. Let's agree to disagree on that.

Whether the character development is positive or negative doesn't matter; there's no inherent morality to it. Thus far, I haven't seen any convincing arguments that Yuni has changed. She still exhibits self-centered behavior, lacks communication skills, blames others, and is willing to disregard others' feelings. Moreover, I haven't observed her expressing any sense of remorse in her actions or thoughts, whereas for instance Fuuko has demonstrated meaningful character growth.

Sexual compatibility is definitely not just "superficial," it can solely make or break a relationship. After all of everything else is fine but you're not sexually compatible, why not just be friends?
You also ignored a full half of the points I made for why Fuuko things Yuni is a desirable partner after you asked for them, the two that are specifically about their emotional connection, and then you claim that the only points are "superficial". Are you sure it's everyone else working in bad faith here?
https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/posts/899535

Bruh you can’t ignore all their points and then say

You also ignored a full half of the points I made for why Fuuko things Yuni is a desirable partner after you asked for them, the two that are specifically about their emotional connection, and then you claim that the only points are "superficial". Are you sure it's everyone else working in bad faith here?

If you can’t make a proper argument for your side just concede

I don't believe these arguments were made in good faith. My use of the term "development" clearly referred to the growth and change of a character as a person due to experiences within the story - character development. My argument was entirely consistent with that definition. I pointed out that Yuni remains as selfish now as she was at the start, illustrating a lack of character growth or change. This seems like a deliberate misinterpretation of my words.

Project about "bad faith" much? The entire story is about Yuni's changes as a character--her discovery of what she does and doesn't want in a relationship, of her own sexual proclivities, etc.

You started this discussion by demanding that readers enumerate Yuni's positive qualities, and then promptly scorned the answers as "shallow arguments," as if only those aspects of Yuni's character that meet your personal moral standards really count as "development."

To me the expectation that a character must become a "better person" epitomizes a shallow conception of what "character development" means.

I believe you're arguing in bad faith, Blaastar, and persisting in doing so.

I presented an argument about how I perceive Yuni's lack of significant character development since the beginning of the story. You came in asserting that I'm using the term incorrectly, despite your argument being unrelated to what I was trying to convey, as I further clarified in my subsequent post. I don't think it's necessary to continue debating that point.

I firmly believe that an argument based solely on physical attractiveness and sexual compatibility is superficial. Let's agree to disagree on that.

Whether the character development is positive or negative doesn't matter; there's no inherent morality to it. Thus far, I haven't seen any convincing arguments that Yuni has changed. She still exhibits self-centered behavior, lacks communication skills, blames others, and is willing to disregard others' feelings. Moreover, I haven't observed her expressing any sense of remorse in her actions or thoughts, whereas for instance Fuuko has demonstrated meaningful character growth.

Sexual compatibility is definitely not just "superficial," it can solely make or break a relationship. After all of everything else is fine but you're not sexually compatible, why not just be friends?
You also ignored a full half of the points I made for why Fuuko things Yuni is a desirable partner after you asked for them, the two that are specifically about their emotional connection, and then you claim that the only points are "superficial". Are you sure it's everyone else working in bad faith here?
https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/posts/899535

Bruh you can’t ignore all their points and then say

You also ignored a full half of the points I made for why Fuuko things Yuni is a desirable partner after you asked for them, the two that are specifically about their emotional connection, and then you claim that the only points are "superficial". Are you sure it's everyone else working in bad faith here?

If you can’t make a proper argument for your side just concede

People talk about "deserve" way too much with romance, it's kinda gross ngl. Nobody "deserves" any romantic relationship, they aren't something you can earn. They are a matter of two (or more) people consenting to be with each other and clearly Fuuko does not share in these extremely negative interpretations of Yuni's character.

Well, go ahead and share some of her positive qualities with us. I'm curious to hear about them, especially since even the author describes her negatively. Then, explain to us how someone who was forgiven for cheating and then betrays that trust again at the first chance can still be considered a good person.

I think she’s intentionally written in a way to be cunty, where you’re not supposed to have sympathy or like her personally. She’s just too dislikable for it to be an accident. As a writer myself, I can tell what the author is trying to do. Part of why she is the way she is is because she’s not getting her emotional needs met, and doesn’t know what she wants

And because it’s a yuri manga gotta crank that miscommunication and drama meter up 30 lvls haha

last edited at Apr 22, 2024 9:05AM

Last two pics from the link should be called:
intentionally provoking "the bull"

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/my_girlfriends_not_here_today_ch12_5#3