@jseah
Are you that guy that wrote that isekai novel?

Which one?

"A Hero's War" by a guy called jseah. I used to discuss it with my buddy on my way home from high school.

Based on what I'm seeing in this first chapter, this is a pretty pure dom/sub story. People who are into that will like it, people who aren't won't.

There's the surface level plot of "oh I want to get one over on her so she realizes she isn't so perfect and can have equal relationships with others" but the whole bets thing is just an excuse for them to do romantic DS stuff, both in and out of universe. I assume eventually Wakaba will realize "Hey wait a minute, I keep agreeing to bets that inevitably end with this hot girl ordering me around and making me kiss her and stuff, and that makes me feel good, what could this possibly mean?"

Anyway, I like the way they position the characters, with Komaki above Wakaba, wrapping her legs around her possessively. It was also a good choice to have Komaki be taller and fuller figured. I don't expect this to be an especially clever or original story, but they're getting the core appeal stuff right.

Did you read in rice to get that idea about the plot? like this ain’t the first time we got this kind of weird plot in romance were we have the biggest cunt act like that and we are supposed to think “she has feelings so she is gonna humiliate her out of love”

this is FAR from BDSM! this is the Japanese weirdo concept of “bullying out of love”

I think you're approaching this all wrong. It's normal to think “oh this is unrealistic, it would be impractical or immoral or unhealthy or toxic to do this in real life” when you see something like this, but if you want to enjoy this kind of media you have to be able to turn that part of your brain off. You have to enjoy this kind of thing on a completely libidinal, illogical level. You have to ignore your logical brain and go with your gut: “do i find this kind of interaction enjoyable or intriguing?” For a lot of people the answer will be no. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks. That's why we have tags on this website. This one's for the freaks (and frankly it's pretty light so far).

I always felt weird about people complaining about 50 shades of gray. They'd roast it for having a shitty plot or being an unrealistic unhealthy depiction of BDSM as if the target audience had any reason to give a shit about that. The middle aged women who read that crap just cared if they found it hot. Enjoyment of low-brow edgy romance fiction is a totally id-based thing, you don't need cerebral moralistic concerns.

I hate the idea that every piece of media has to be some kind of moral instruction manual for how to live your life. Like yeah, if I emulated the actions of these fictional cartoon characters it would go horribly for everyone involved, but who cares. I just want to see a toxic relationship in a comic book and go “oh that's freaky I like that” and if you can't relate, that's just a difference in taste isn't it?

TLDR: DLDR

I don't even think you need to turn your brain off (and in the case of the person you're replying to I don't think they need that advice lol), more just abstract the level from which you're looking at the story.
It seems very likely to me that for this manga you're not supposed to be looking at these characters and judging them as people on moral standards (almost no media is written for the audience to morally judge it, just like Chick tracts and garbage like that basically lol), but rather feeling these characters as bundles of emotion and conflict and desire. Of course Komaki looks like a haughty bitch, we're not seeing any sort of "objective" portrayal of a character, we're seeing her through Wakaba's subjective perspective, tinted by her emotions.

the person you're replying to probably can't figure that out between the blood rushing to their head and the blood rushing to their lower half

Yuri is generally written from an abstracted point of view where the audience is not necessarily intended to involve themselves personally in the media at all. Even wall-kun otaku are getting too personal with it. ofc people don't tend to think that spicy media can also have other aspects and that's where we get antishippers and (the worse kinds of) proshippers

FYI, you can read and enjoy incest stories on the regular and not be a proshipper, it's called critical enjoyment

Whaddaya want from me? I'm plenty critical, and I'm not a self-inserter. I just keep my critical thoughts in the back of my mind where they belong. Like I could be reading this while mentally composing an essay about how coercing someone into kissing you is morally abhorrent, but that's not really the point of this manga is it? I have much more fun by focusing on thoughts like "ooh that's spicy, I wonder what exciting things these crazy girls will get up to next."

The detached, intellectual way of viewing media is often enjoyable and illuminating, but I just don't think it's the best way to approach this kind of thing. Again, I expect the plot of this story to mostly be an excuse for romantic dom/sub stuff, so if you come at it the way you would a more straight-laced and dramatic romance, you're going to find yourself frustrated and disappointed.

Based on what I'm seeing in this first chapter, this is a pretty pure dom/sub story. People who are into that will like it, people who aren't won't.

There's the surface level plot of "oh I want to get one over on her so she realizes she isn't so perfect and can have equal relationships with others" but the whole bets thing is just an excuse for them to do romantic DS stuff, both in and out of universe. I assume eventually Wakaba will realize "Hey wait a minute, I keep agreeing to bets that inevitably end with this hot girl ordering me around and making me kiss her and stuff, and that makes me feel good, what could this possibly mean?"

Anyway, I like the way they position the characters, with Komaki above Wakaba, wrapping her legs around her possessively. It was also a good choice to have Komaki be taller and fuller figured. I don't expect this to be an especially clever or original story, but they're getting the core appeal stuff right.

Did you read in rice to get that idea about the plot? like this ain’t the first time we got this kind of weird plot in romance were we have the biggest cunt act like that and we are supposed to think “she has feelings so she is gonna humiliate her out of love”

this is FAR from BDSM! this is the Japanese weirdo concept of “bullying out of love”

I think you're approaching this all wrong. It's normal to think “oh this is unrealistic, it would be impractical or immoral or unhealthy or toxic to do this in real life” when you see something like this, but if you want to enjoy this kind of media you have to be able to turn that part of your brain off. You have to enjoy this kind of thing on a completely libidinal, illogical level. You have to ignore your logical brain and go with your gut: “do i find this kind of interaction enjoyable or intriguing?” For a lot of people the answer will be no. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks. That's why we have tags on this website. This one's for the freaks (and frankly it's pretty light so far).

I always felt weird about people complaining about 50 shades of gray. They'd roast it for having a shitty plot or being an unrealistic unhealthy depiction of BDSM as if the target audience had any reason to give a shit about that. The middle aged women who read that crap just cared if they found it hot. Enjoyment of low-brow edgy romance fiction is a totally id-based thing, you don't need cerebral moralistic concerns.

I hate the idea that every piece of media has to be some kind of moral instruction manual for how to live your life. Like yeah, if I emulated the actions of these fictional cartoon characters it would go horribly for everyone involved, but who cares. I just want to see a toxic relationship in a comic book and go “oh that's freaky I like that” and if you can't relate, that's just a difference in taste isn't it?

TLDR: DLDR

I don't even think you need to turn your brain off (and in the case of the person you're replying to I don't think they need that advice lol), more just abstract the level from which you're looking at the story.
It seems very likely to me that for this manga you're not supposed to be looking at these characters and judging them as people on moral standards (almost no media is written for the audience to morally judge it, just like Chick tracts and garbage like that basically lol), but rather feeling these characters as bundles of emotion and conflict and desire. Of course Komaki looks like a haughty bitch, we're not seeing any sort of "objective" portrayal of a character, we're seeing her through Wakaba's subjective perspective, tinted by her emotions.

the person you're replying to probably can't figure that out between the blood rushing to their head and the blood rushing to their lower half

Yuri is generally written from an abstracted point of view where the audience is not necessarily intended to involve themselves personally in the media at all. Even wall-kun otaku are getting too personal with it. ofc people don't tend to think that spicy media can also have other aspects and that's where we get antishippers and (the worse kinds of) proshippers

FYI, you can read and enjoy incest stories on the regular and not be a proshipper, it's called critical enjoyment

Whaddaya want from me? I'm plenty critical, and I'm not a self-inserter. I just keep my critical thoughts in the back of my mind where they belong. Like I could be reading this while mentally composing an essay about how coercing someone into kissing you is morally abhorrent, but that's not really the point of this manga is it? I have much more fun by focusing on thoughts like "ooh that's spicy, I wonder what exciting things these crazy girls will get up to next."

The detached, intellectual way of viewing media is often enjoyable and illuminating, but I just don't think it's the best way to approach this kind of thing. Again, I expect the plot of this story to mostly be an excuse for romantic dom/sub stuff, so if you come at it the way you would a more straight-laced and dramatic romance, you're going to find yourself frustrated and disappointed.

Yeah I think can you enjoy things in fictional media that aren't good in real life. As long as you're able to separate fiction and reality you're doing fine. There's so much over correction online and it's insane to me, especially when it comes to people wanting to sanitize all media, and people's opinions as well. No one is allowed to have a taboo or weird fantasy, they must be made to feel shame and guilt at all times. It's why terms such as "proshipper/proshipping" and related immediately give me a headache every time I see them. The internet loves to make sure you know that you're a terrible person for having the "wrong opinions and enjoyment" of fictional media.

@jseah
Are you that guy that wrote that isekai novel?

Which one?

"A Hero's War" by a guy called jseah. I used to discuss it with my buddy on my way home from high school.

That was me, yes.

FYI, you can read and enjoy incest stories on the regular and not be a proshipper

If you think it's okay for people to write incest stories, you're a pro-shipper. As in pro-shipping. vs anti-shippers who want to police what's written.

Huh, all the weirdly introspective internal monologue brings this from a "wow, she is losing bets and has to play gay chicken howwww original" to "omg this is kinda cool actually"

Also in Japanese losing is a euphemism for like subbing or something LOL they really baked the Reversal tag into the premise

the first part i agree with hahaha

So less fked up and a tad more wholesome than Destroy It All And Love Me In Hell!, I guess?

I feel like the two series' aren't really that similar all things considered, with the characters in this story being childhood friends and also having generally different personality traits. We'll have to see as the story progresses whether there are any more similarities, but as of now it shares some aspects w "a kiss and white lily" more than anything

Ooh fuck yeah. There’s so many layers to her determination. That is some sexy sexy rivalry going on there, the addition of “I still remember being friends, and wanting to show her that she’s human” is just delicious. It really sells that she’d accept these terms even knowing she has low odds, because there’s so much feeling in it. Oh I’m so excited for this one.

Japanese mangaka be cooking some weird shit and I'll be eating them all

I'd say this is definitely closer to Kiss and a White Lilly than Arioto, mainly because the whole wagering sexual favors for academic accomplishments makes me buy into the belief both these girls are actually gay and not just being coerced into it for financial reasons.

Man arioto is so fuckin weird

Arioto also had a 'wager', and it's not like Marika was desperate enough to be called coerced. She wanted a nice bag, not food or rent or tuition money.

Arioto also had a 'wager', and it's not like Marika was desperate enough to be called coerced. She wanted a nice bag, not food or rent or tuition money.

That, plus I don't understand the idea that she was coerced into being gay? She's just gay. They're similar because neither girl actually needs to continue the "game." They both continue to "play" for other underlying reasons (or feelings) but there isn't any real threat to "losing," beyond pride and a handbag.

last edited at Feb 27, 2024 5:46PM

I guess I should be clear that it's not the wager per se that annoys me about arioto (I mean, that would be more like a laundry list of complaints) but that the nature of the wager seems based on the idea that Marika isn't gay and the story (at least in the manga) doesn't do a good job of establishing otherwise up until that point, so the whole thing feels off. Here, though, I can come up with no other reason for actually initiating such a wager rather than just, like, studying harder and getting better scores and then bragging about them against her; none of this makes sense unless both of our main characters are gay as heck.

I guess I should be clear that it's not the wager per se that annoys me about arioto (I mean, that would be more like a laundry list of complaints) but that the nature of the wager seems based on the idea that Marika isn't gay and the story (at least in the manga) doesn't do a good job of establishing otherwise up until that point, so the whole thing feels off. Here, though, I can come up with no other reason for actually initiating such a wager rather than just, like, studying harder and getting better scores and then bragging about them against her; none of this makes sense unless both of our main characters are gay as heck.

Well, I guess we'll disagree but Marika was was in denial of her feelings as early as chapter 2-3. She pretty much outright thinks it. Then there's blushes, hearts, "heat" and "heart thumps" galore. Her whole character was about facades and it didn't seem that subtle. So, while the setups aren't exactly the same, I don't see these as being all that different, premise wise.

last edited at Feb 27, 2024 8:01PM

My main thing about arioto I didn't like was the child predator bartender lady. Same reason I don't like wataten.

My main thing about arioto I didn't like was the child predator bartender lady. Same reason I don't like wataten.

That's fair.

Gabinomicon posted:

My main thing about arioto I didn't like was the child predator bartender lady. Same reason I don't like wataten.

Ironically, I kind of wish the story had actually been about that but it would have had to take a massively different tone and wouldn't have meshed with the more jejune "actually gay people are just like everyone else" thesis it seems to have been exploring, especially in the context of the lesbian bar scenes. It makes the earlier parts of the story worse by association; just kind of paints everything else before it that could be interpreted as coercive in the worst possible light, Aya pushing this stuff onto Marika because this was how she learned about it all.

Granted, "gay people really are just like everyone else, which means that they also, like everyone else, have communities that include predatory people; those predators will try to find ways to project an air of respectability and make themselves impossible to remove from their base of power" is a significantly harder story to tell well.

Masterful first chapter. I'm on board with this.

I think the most interesting part to me, is that the flashback at the end doesn't just recontextualize Wakaba, but also Komaki's apparent sadism and superiority complex. It feels like she's pushing these deals both out of desire for Wakaba, but also on some level still wants Wakaba to drag her back down to earth as much as Wakaba does. The big question is if that part of the motivation is still a conscious thing for Komaki or if she's managed to bury it to subconscious levels by now, by buying into her own hype. But her forlorn faces on page 21 and page 27 seem to imply that she's still on some level aware of her own insecurities.

Gosh, I love dubcon. And with 65 comments before mine on this first chapter, I'm sure all the dubcon haters will be out for blood, haha.

I am surprised to see there's a manga. I am currently reading this light novel. I wish Story about buying my classmate gets a manga too

I am surprised to see there's a manga. I am currently reading this light novel. I wish Story about buying my classmate gets a manga too

It will, starting next month.

How's the light novel?

Wakaba, cut her angel wings off, just like in that other story on here

Well, I'm about to come in hot with a shameless self-plug, but for those interested in following the translation of the web novel, I'm currently trying to pump some chapters out on: https://amawashigroup.wordpress.com/

I'm also (very) slowly catching up on ShuuKura (another yuri web novel that a few people have mentioned here already) as well.

Do note that both of those series are currently also being translated by someone else, and they are way, way ahead of me. But they likely use MTL translations with some edits here and there just to get chapters out faster (please note that as a result, a lot of nuance gets missed and some parts can be incorrect as well). The website they host those chapters on also has a paid "coin" system to read the most recent chapters as soon as they come out as well.

I won't name-drop their group here (primarily because I am against their "coin" system), but you can find them by visiting the NovelUpdates page for this series here: https://www.novelupdates.com/series/a-story-about-losing-all-my-first-experiences-after-suffering-defeat-at-the-hands-of-my-twisted-genius-of-a-childhood-friend/

I 100% understand and respect those who want to read ahead. I am very far behind, so I think it's super reasonable (and it's exactly what I would do as a reader, lol). The MTL is still readable! At the end of the day, the only thing I wish for is for more people to get into this series, as well as ShuuKura (which will probably see an increase in readership very soon).

last edited at Feb 29, 2024 9:46PM

Well, I'm about to come in hot with a shameless self-plug, but for those interested in following the translation of the web novel, I'm currently trying to pump some chapters out on: https://amawashigroup.wordpress.com/

I'm also (very) slowly catching up on ShuuKura (another yuri web novel that a few people have mentioned here already) as well.

Do note that both of those series are currently also being translated by someone else, and they are way, way ahead of me. But they likely use MTL translations with some edits here and there just to get chapters out faster (please note that as a result, a lot of nuance gets missed and some parts can be incorrect as well). The website they host those chapters on also has a paid "coin" system to read the most recent chapters as soon as they come out as well.

I won't name-drop their group here (primarily because I am against their "coin" system), but you can find them by visiting the NovelUpdates page for this series here: https://www.novelupdates.com/series/a-story-about-losing-all-my-first-experiences-after-suffering-defeat-at-the-hands-of-my-twisted-genius-of-a-childhood-friend/

I 100% understand and respect those who want to read ahead. I am very far behind, so I think it's super reasonable (and it's exactly what I would do as a reader, lol). The MTL is still readable! At the end of the day, the only thing I wish for is for more people to get into this series, as well as ShuuKura (which will probably see an increase in readership very soon).

I appreciate the heads up! You've just earned yourself an avid reader!

Broooo that's it??? Damn you left me blue balled right there