The problem with this is that the deep trauma she endured which caused her to behave as a borderline psychopath is being dumped in high school. I am not saying that such an experience is a pleasant one, or that it leaves no emotional scars, but I am saying that the levels to which she is traumatised are way, waaay too high for such an affair.

Just to illustrate my point, let us return to one of the earliest WHAT THE FUCK moments, the earrings. Maki gifts Liz some nice earrings. Liz suffers a mental breakdown, because it is a deep trauma (let me reiterate, all of this stems from being dumped by her high school girlfriend). Maki proceeds to apologise (for doing nothing wrong, she had no way of knowing that particular shape of earrings had any sort of traumatic meaning for Liz). Liz responds to the apology by slapping her, because that is what a mentally stable person does under such circumstances. And Maki's first thought afterwards is whether or not Liz is alright, because of course a chronic doormat like her would think that.

Liz is being a "victim" of a failed high school romance, for which she proceeds to vent in massively disproportionate ways on people who did her nothing wrong and showed her only kindness and love. She is not exactly the shining example of a flawed but sympathetic character that makes you root for her happiness.

I don't think there's any amount of trauma that makes Liz's behavior towards Maki justified. I find it just as compelling and believable that a mundane event had such a strong effect on Liz.

I don't think Maki's apology is framed as a "correct" response, either. Her character arc is learning to value herself. She's not at fault for what's happened to her, but she needs to learn to assert her worth and boundaries.

Maki doesn't have any obligation to forgive Liz or even hear her out. A good ending to the story could be Maki choosing to cut Liz out of her life completely.

I just don't think that's the only satisfying ending to their story. Maki forgiving Liz on the grounds that Liz needs to do better and fix her shit wouldn't compromise either character arc in my opinion.

Now, whether or not that could be executed in a satisfying way is going to at least partially be down to taste. I don't think it's too late to show them doing the work and earning a happy ending together, but that would require breaking out of the soap opera vibe we've got going right now.

So yeah, if you wouldn't forgive Liz in that situation, that's that's 100% justified. But I don't think it's a weaker choice for Maki to forgive her.

Man what is even going to happen at this point. I saw comments from another series talking about train wrecks, and mentioned liberty. That was a few months ago, and against my better judgement I've ended up reading this shit. I can't pull myself out of an angsty series once I'm in, but what could honestly happen here? Has Maki eloped? Is it a misunderstanding? Will we ever see the conclusion to this hellfire in my lifetime. What's the most likely outcome for this series atm?

lmfao

I don't think there's any amount of trauma that makes Liz's behavior towards Maki justified. I find it just as compelling and believable that a mundane event had such a strong effect on Liz.

But if you look at it in the context not of an imaginary human being in real life but of yuri manga tropes, it's not very believable at all.

"Senpai dumped me when she graduated because we're both girls" has occurred in any number of stories (off the top of my head: to Sayaka in YagaKimi, to one of the MCs in First Love Sisters, to Chidori in Hana ni Arashi. And I'm sure there must be others).

In all those stories, it made those characters sad and wary of getting romantically involved with a girl again, which they overcame to find romance once more. Full stop. It didn't turn them into borderline-personality physical abusers.

If such a thing had never happened in a yuri manga story before, well, readers could take it under advisement as a possible reasonable explanation for a character's behavior. But since it's been depicted in similar stories many times before, proposing it as some deep trauma that leads to a seriously warped personality is just ridiculous.

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 3:29PM

I don't think there's any amount of trauma that makes Liz's behavior towards Maki justified. I find it just as compelling and believable that a mundane event had such a strong effect on Liz.

That is exactly the reason why I do not consider it compelling, though. Mundane events are mundane for a reason, I just can not comprehend why someone would be this traumatised without basically being somewhat unhinged to begin with.

I don't think Maki's apology is framed as a "correct" response, either. Her character arc is learning to value herself. She's not at fault for what's happened to her, but she needs to learn to assert her worth and boundaries.

The problem with Maki is that we hardly ever see her learning this lesson. Literally the only scene that comes to mind was when she tried to slap Liz's ex, and even that was kind of... off... like, you are supposed to slap your own cheating girlfriend, not whomever happens to be with them. I agree that this is a lesson she needs to learn (or rather, that it would be beneficial for her to learn it), but the problem is, we are not exactly shown her making any progress on that front.

Maki doesn't have any obligation to forgive Liz or even hear her out. A good ending to the story could be Maki choosing to cut Liz out of her life completely.

I just don't think that's the only satisfying ending to their story. Maki forgiving Liz on the grounds that Liz needs to do better and fix her shit wouldn't compromise either character arc in my opinion.

Now, whether or not that could be executed in a satisfying way is going to at least partially be down to taste. I don't think it's too late to show them doing the work and earning a happy ending together, but that would require breaking out of the soap opera vibe we've got going right now.

Agree, it is basically down to the execution on the part of the author, how well can they pull it off. It is just that with the overall writing quality, and specifically when it comes to characterisations, I am not exactly expecting the most compelling scenario here if they opt for a happy ending.

So yeah, if you wouldn't forgive Liz in that situation, that's that's 100% justified. But I don't think it's a weaker choice for Maki to forgive her.

If Maki grows as a character, definitely, she could forgive her and still have it presented as a stronger option. But if she stays the same doormat as before, it is definitely a weaker choice.

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 3:38PM

THIS BITCH HAS NO SYMPATHY FROM ME. THE FUCK AHHHHHHHHHHHHh

Every people react differently to what happens to them. It's not the objective circumstances that determine whether an event is traumatic, but the subjective, emotional experience of that event.

Every people react differently to what happens to them. It's not the objective circumstances that determine whether an event is traumatic, but the subjective, emotional experience of that event.

I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated--whether something could conceivably happen in real life is totally irrelevant to its credibility as a storytelling trope.

It's the job of the author to sell the audience on the idea that this event in the past is a plausible explanation for a specific character's behavior in the narrative present--the author has to make that "subjective, emotional" experience concrete in the pages of the text. That's what good writing is.

It's not up to the audience to explain away poor character motivations by handwaving at theoretical real-life possibilities.

Every people react differently to what happens to them. It's not the objective circumstances that determine whether an event is traumatic, but the subjective, emotional experience of that event.

I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated--whether something could conceivably happen in real life is totally irrelevant to its credibility as a storytelling trope.

It's the job of the author to sell the audience on the idea that this event in the past is a plausible explanation for a specific character's behavior in the narrative present--the author has to make that "subjective, emotional" experience concrete in the pages of the text. That's what good writing is.

It's not up to the audience to explain away poor character motivations by handwaving at theoretical real-life possibilities.

Exactly. Mundane things are commonplace, ordinary, because they happen all the time and to a lot of people, and most people have similar reactions. High school breakups are one of those things, and the vast majority of people do not end up emotionally scarred for life because of them.

So if you are going to have a high school breakup be the linchpin of your characterisation, specifically why the character in question is a borderline sociopath, then you better have some rather compelling in-depth explanation in the story for why this affected them so deeply. We are simply not given that here.

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 4:35PM

I just want to see more suffer for Liz

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 4:49PM

Chapter 6 pretty mach explained Liz. Being ditched buy "your one true love" and being told that "homosexual love isn't real" and dealing with "homophobia" can mentally destroy people. It's your problem if you don't buy this explenation. It's subjective.

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 5:04PM

The struggle continues! See you all in 3 months :DDD

lol good! she didn't even cared she hurt Maki until she found out she was the side POS. cry harder

Why do I keep reading?

lol in my case, need to know how bad the trainwreck gets

lol good! she didn't even cared she hurt Maki until she found out she was the side POS. cry harder

This. She didn't realize she loved Maki, she realized her one true love can never truly love her so she's gonna settle with her second choice and the one who she thinks will never hurt her, Maki.

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 5:37PM

Man I thought they finished this manga and I read this back when I was in highschool lol

funny how new chapter dropped a few hours after Izumi Kitta announced her marriage lol

funny how new chapter dropped a few hours after Izumi Kitta announced her marriage lol

Yeah lol I didn't even know it was her birthday. Imagine my face when I found she also got married with an Italian.

It is slapped together because she is an inexperienced writer, this being literally her debut.

While she may get better with experience, other writers do well in their debut work. The question of talent versus incentive remains.

Not everyone does well in their debut works, so it is hardly an actual argument.

Nonsense. Most people do relatively well in their debut work. I'm not referring to attempted debuts, but to work that finds a publisher. Experience is neither necessary nor sufficient to explain ability, so lack of ability cannot be explained by lack of experience. Publishers can find sufficiently able writers without debuting bad writers who don't illustrate. The commercial publication of writing exhibiting lack of quality cannot be explained in terms of the lack of experience of the writer.

Plus, there is a facet of the incentive premise that you are not even considering.

Nope. But, before you get to the heart of your screw-up, we get some blah-blah-blah:

From what I remember from her interview (and it has been a long time since I read it, so I could be slightly off), she is basically having fun with this, mashing all her favourite yuri tropes. If her incentive for writing this is to simply have fun doing something she always wanted to do, she is pretty much fulfilling it. She is a voice actress, her career is not really hanging on this manga performing well, so the "incentive to get better" at writing might not even be there at all, or at least it might not be prevalent.

So far, that theory (which could have been expressed in one brief sentence) falls well within the scope of what I'd said.

You linked the writing problems to either a lack of competence or a lack of incentive in terms of readers demanding better storytelling.

To keep doing this, she needs a publisher.

Lack of competence is certainly a factor, it can not not be with someone who is not a professional writer and is basically doing this for the first time.

Not unless a publisher publishes it. And a publisher won't keep publishing it if the number of people buying the contents discernibly declines.

But the lack of incentive, in the way you presented it, is simply not a factor at all, in my opinion.

Your opinion absurdly imagines commercial publication as something else.

I do not think she would radically alter her course if some of the readers did rebel.

She'd have no choice but radical change of some sort. She'd have to abandon the work, or write better, or fund its publication herself. With money or sweet-talk, she'd have to persuade Momono Moto to keep drawing it, or find another artist, or draw it herself.

She is doing this for fun ​and is clearly not planning and mapping it out in excruciating detail beforehand.

So, given that her publisher puts-up with it because, for some reason, the readers put up with it, she doesn't have an incentive to do better. Get that all in your head at once.

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 7:29PM

Actually, there's one cliche we haven't considered: Maki's ex is back! (The one who dumped her, came begging back, then ghosted her.)

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/liberty_ch16#4

We only see her in a chibi version, but the hair color, length, and bow are all there.

No trope unturned indeed.

You can actually see her in page 2 and 3. I keep thinking she's just a throwaway character they made just for cheap drama.

You're right--I wasn't paying enough attention to read that as a flashback scene that connected to the next conversation. She's even wearing the same outfit and scarf.

Then that means... the woman of mystery who's hugging Maki is ZORRA-CHAN???

I honestly had forgotten all about that character. Hoo boy. Maki's ex! Can't believe she's back.

funny how new chapter dropped a few hours after Izumi Kitta announced her marriage lol

Yeah lol I didn't even know it was her birthday. Imagine my face when I found she also got married with an Italian.

And... the gender of the spouse? Was it mentioned?

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 6:32PM

Actually, there's one cliche we haven't considered: Maki's ex is back! (The one who dumped her, came begging back, then ghosted her.)

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/liberty_ch16#4

We only see her in a chibi version, but the hair color, length, and bow are all there.

No trope unturned indeed.

You can actually see her in page 2 and 3. I keep thinking she's just a throwaway character they made just for cheap drama.

You're right--I wasn't paying enough attention to read that as a flashback scene that connected to the next conversation. She's even wearing the same outfit and scarf.

Then that means... the woman of mystery who's hugging Maki is ZORRA-CHAN???

I honestly had forgotten all about that character. Hoo boy. Can't believe she's back.

funny how new chapter dropped a few hours after Izumi Kitta announced her marriage lol

Yeah lol I didn't even know it was her birthday. Imagine my face when I found she also got married with an Italian.

And... the gender of the spouse? Was it mentioned?

Honestly, thats the question that makes or breaks everything for me. I thought she was just a lesbian who's not the best writer, but if she's a straight girl writing this that would generally make my blood boil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNyseb6EGCA

Yeah, I absolutely love how this is the image she thinks of when she thinks of her and Maki
I'm kinda surprised that they didn't include those times Liz casually hit her

So we can choose between Liz, or Maki's cheating ex?
Amazing. :D

Consider for a moment that this series is one of Galette's flagship series, one of the only ones allowed to continue when the magazine was in rough shape due to covid and tightening budgets. Like you say, it's basically a VA having fun, and it sells books. Keeping an indie publisher afloat during the pandemic is an impressive debut no matter how you slice it.

It might be more interesting to speculate why the hell it manages to do it's job so well. Here's to another 5 years of it!!

It actually makes me very happy to know that five years from now I'll still get to visit this thread and read Blastaar's exquisitely written messages—explaining with subtle irony why Liberty is so terribly bad and how, after perusing chapter one hundred, they have confirmed once again that this manga is a torturous read and nobody should be subjected to it.

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 7:01PM

Consider for a moment that this series is one of Galette's flagship series, one of the only ones allowed to continue when the magazine was in rough shape due to covid and tightening budgets. Like you say, it's basically a VA having fun, and it sells books. Keeping an indie publisher afloat during the pandemic is an impressive debut no matter how you slice it.

It might be more interesting to speculate why the hell it manages to do it's job so well. Here's to another 5 years of it!!

It actually makes me very happy to know that five years from now I'll still get to visit this thread and read Blastaar's exquisitely written messages—explaining with subtle irony why Liberty is so terribly bad and how, after perusing chapter one hundred, they have confirmed once again that this manga is a torturous read and nobody should be subjected to it.

That thing I mentioned previously about being like "A member of the National Transportation Safety Board getting to watch a plane wreck happen in real time" is not entirely, or even mostly, a joke. For several reasons it's an opportunity I simply cannot pass up.