Gin is displaying strong gender euphoria coming out of his cross-dressing hobby and compliments. That's a pro for the argument that he actually might be MtF, instead of a negative. Not every trans feels dysphoria, or they only have it to such degree they mostly just ignore it as general dissatisfaction about how they look rather than as a sign they might actually want to be of different sex. Some only feel dysphoria and aren't happy even after they try to change themselves to suit their self-image better. Yet others feel both, sometimes very strongly.

All that said, author in a context like this is actually perfectly ok choosing anything, up to Gin just having a strong interest in dressing as a woman, but definitely not wanting actually to be one. But since the issue came up again, it seems it will be addressed at some point. It's a story about Gin trying to figure out himself, after all, even with all the other craziness happening around him. Arguing about what it's gonna be is fruitless.

last edited at May 21, 2020 7:41PM

holy shit guys, his expression tells us that he’s literally heard of this transgender thing just now, he’s probably making connections to how it “might” fit into his situation and hence why hes shocked but tbh i dunno i mean he did do it for attention on social media but maybe overtime he became more familiar with it?

People who think Gin is a transgirl are coming out of the woods I see :)

"Why are you telling me this now?"

"Well see I was being blackmailed and blahdyblahdyblah-"

"No, I mean, couldn't you have waited until we weren't in a crowded, quiet public space surrounded by onlookers?"

holy shit guys, his expression tells us that he’s literally heard of this transgender thing just now, he’s probably making connections to how it “might” fit into his situation and hence why hes shocked but tbh i dunno i mean he did do it for attention on social media but maybe overtime he became more familiar with it?

It was mentioned to him chapters ago, IIRC. I don't think Gin has really strongly sorted through his feelings about gender, but he has continued to refer to himself as male since then. His surprise here isn't because "wait that's a thing?" but because this particular revelation caught him by surprise.

Which is not unexpected, because it is pretty surprising.

(as an aside, Gin still looks pretty girly and his hair just looks like a pixie cut, so I wonder how many of those onlookers were just thinking "Wow, she was wearing a wig? But she looks fine with short hair!")

Is there a yandere word for boys? Or works for that too?

Yes Yandere is universal term, regardless of gender.

Such nuanced and realistic portray of gay men stares

From normal to psycho in 0,4 seconds, lol.

I realized, reading this chapter, that one of the reasons I love this manga is that the characters have so many traits stereotypically found in yuri manga stories. For example: Blondie, in this chapter, turns out to be a male version of Touko from Umineko: the possessive psycho friend who tries to isolate the MC from everyone else to make sure they will always be at their side (and goes bananas when the plan fails, lolol). I guess some of you won't like to find typical yurigirl quirks and qualities in male characters, whatever their orientation, but I'm okay with it: in the end, these are just devices to make the plot advance.

For example: Blondie, in this chapter...

Did he even have a name? I guess he had, hehe, but his role in the story is so minimal I've already forgot (I had even forgotten he existed, tbh).

takachi posted:

That will make your gay psycho friend sad!

Oh come on, what makes you jump to this conclusion? As in, what makes you see Gin's friend as a psycho?

There you have it now. Chapter 21.

If you don't think he's a psycho, I think you're a bit delusional.

And now Gin stated that he doesn't feel like a transgender, because he's not attracted to men.

I love how this author is shoveling out stereotypes by the dozens... /s

takachi posted:

That will make your gay psycho friend sad!

Oh come on, what makes you jump to this conclusion? As in, what makes you see Gin's friend as a psycho?

There you have it now. Chapter 21.

If you don't think he's a psycho, I think you're a bit delusional.

And now Gin stated that he doesn't feel like a transgender, because he's not attracted to men.

I love how this author is shoveling out stereotypes by the dozens... /s

Ok you are just being disengenuous here, he said that it was about getting attention and his own personality not that he was sure because he wasn't gay.

"I think I was attracted to him because he used to be a girl" That's gonna be a yikes from me.

I'm with Nya, this is gross. I held out this long out of curiosity but to say this mischaracterizes the queer experience would be charitable at best.

PS - the common sterotype for trans men is "just a butch lesbian" which seems to not be the case here but I'm not going to give the author too much credit

"I think I was attracted to him because he used to be a girl" That's gonna be a yikes from me.

I'm with Nya, this is gross. I held out this long out of curiosity but to say this mischaracterizes the queer experience would be charitable at best.

PS - the common sterotype for trans men is "just a butch lesbian" which seems to not be the case here but I'm not going to give the author too much credit

I'm lesbian, and I look at trans men, and see how feminine they are, and get attracted to that part of them. I kind of shake my head and think it's a shame because they're usually very beautiful in their feminine form. Granted I see most of them pre-transition.

Also there's a lot of queer people I know that are overly attached and overly emotional. Hell I am one of them. I'm pretty sure I'm borderline, so if I was still with my best friend, I think I would get a little crazy like Gin's high school friend. Especially if I was deeply closeted like that. Fortunately I'm not.

In the past though, I have been possessive to the point that I wanted to seriously kill or beat up my romantic rival. If they didn't live on the other side of the ocean, it could have been bad.

I've calmed down a lot, and I know such an answer is not acceptable, but I didn't care in my early twenties. I'm 30 now so... I still suffer from that deep attachment though to my best friend who stopped being friends with me 15 years ago.

Being attracted to perceived femininity of trans men isn't a crime, but it borders on fetishistic at best, and the manga isn't instilling confidence with that line. Angst is fine (and can be great as a story element). In and of itself, having a gay yandere character isn't some sort of manga crime, but similar to the "femininity of trans men" thing it's another note on a long list of problematic elements.

And wrt to queerness and mental illness, that's a subject matter that can be really important, but do you really get the impression while reading this that it's going to take the time necessary to investigate the topic while being respectful, accurate, and representative?

You're missing her point.

This manga isn't making up stuff. It shows things that happen, as they happen, and many of us feel related to the characters -- and sympathize with their reactions, even when they seem extreme or crazy.

As for your American-style politically correct concerns, the Japanese author and the Japanese readers obviously don't give a damn... and, frankly, neither do we who love the story just as it is.

Nene posted:

You're missing her point.

This manga isn't making up stuff. It shows things that happen, as they happen, and many of us feel related to the characters -- and sympathize with their reactions, even when they seem extreme or crazy.

As for your American-style politically correct concerns, the Japanese author and the Japanese readers obviously don't give a damn... and, frankly, neither do we who love the story just as it is.

This is a manga about LGBT. This much is clear.

I wouldn't ask the author to be PC. But maybe, just maybe, tone down on the oversimplification of the LGBT characters toward every negative stereotype from the 90s?

The gay man, the lesbian, the bisexual, and even Gin, are caricatures of how people viewed them a few decades ago. And not in the best of light.

Even in Japan society has evolved since then...

I wouldn't have any gripe about this if this manga's spiel wasn't to somehow lecture the readers about LGBT...

If I didn't know better and was an average Japanese reader not too informed about it, I'd go and think "Wow, these LGBT people are really screwed in the head! I hope my child isn't one of them and will steer clear of them, lest they be infected by their craziness!"

This is NOT ok.

I wouldn't have any gripe about this if this manga's spiel wasn't to somehow lecture the readers about LGBT...

This manga's just about telling a story.

If I didn't know better and was an average Japanese reader not too informed about it, I'd go and think "Wow, these LGBT people are really screwed in the head! I hope my child isn't one of them and will steer clear of them, lest they be infected by their craziness!"

I think the average Japanese reader can tell reality from fiction.

This is NOT ok.

That's your subjective opinion.

Ke_Zukulenzia posted:

I wouldn't have any gripe about this if this manga's spiel wasn't to somehow lecture the readers about LGBT...

This manga's just about telling a story.

We didn't read the same manga then.

If I didn't know better and was an average Japanese reader not too informed about it, I'd go and think "Wow, these LGBT people are really screwed in the head! I hope my child isn't one of them and will steer clear of them, lest they be infected by their craziness!"

I think the average Japanese reader can tell reality from fiction.

You overestimate average people. Just reading about what people believe these days, about the 5G or that drinking bleach and shoving an UV lamp up their ass will somehow protect them from the virus, I'm not too optimistic.

This is NOT ok.

That's your subjective opinion.

I never pretended otherwise. But this is no reason to dismiss anything I say just because it's an opinion. Or this is the end of any discussion...

*Argues that God exists*

"That's just your subjective opinion man. End Of Debate."

Hahahahaha this manga is so awful

It’s great to see lesbians crying about how they can’t have babies and also becoming psycho blackmailers whoops, so let’s even that out by making the gay best friend another psycho who stalks his friend and is now contemplating cutting some dude up. Nice! This is so true to real life guys! Oh and Gin can’t be trans because they don’t like girls, yeah sure why not, everything else in this manga is gross and wrong anyway, let’s chuck that into the flames too. Not that I imagined Gin was trans, I assumed he cross dressed just for fun, but that reasoning on why he can’t be trans, yikes.

If I didn't know better and was an average Japanese reader not too informed about it, I'd go and think "Wow, these LGBT people are really screwed in the head! I hope my child isn't one of them and will steer clear of them, lest they be infected by their craziness!"

I think the average Japanese reader can tell reality from fiction.

People only know what they've been exposed to. If the only people who speak up have bigoted preconceptions, and actual gay people are afraid to speak up, and portrayals and fiction show a screwed up misrepresentation of the LGBT community, that's all they know.

Just because something is fiction doesn't mean it isn't intended to convey reality, or that it might give people a misconception of reality. Have you ever read a fictional story and felt like you learned something meaningful from it? Did you ever feel that a lesson in a fictional story resonated with you because it matched something that felt true to life?

Has it really -never- occurred to you that fiction could reinforce someone's misconceptions the same way it might reinforce your worldview?

Has it really -never- occurred to you that fiction could reinforce someone's misconceptions the same way it might reinforce your worldview?

That argument is familiar to me. I've heard it many times.

It never convinced me.

A kid ties a red blanket around his neck, jumps from the top of a building and is seriously injured. People demand that all superhero comics be outlawed. Another kid plays violent action games, and one day shoots someone. People demand GTA and Saints Row be outlawed. Another kid watches Bugs Bunny cartoons and becomes unruly. People demand that the wascally wabbit be outlawed.

Hundreds of millions of kids read superhero comics, play shooting games or watch Bugs Bunny and it has zero effect on their daily lives. These kids can tell reality from fiction. A few kids, however, try to imitate irl the fictional behaviors they see. Are they mentally challenged? Are their parents to blame? I dunno. What I do know is that it's not a good excuse for censorship. Those who let fiction and reality get mixed in their heads need to learn the errors of their ways. You should teach them, instead of accusing whatever work of fiction messed them up. This is how it goes, for all kinds of fiction.

last edited at May 29, 2020 2:27AM

Has it really -never- occurred to you that fiction could reinforce someone's misconceptions the same way it might reinforce your worldview?

That argument is familiar to me. I've heard it many times.

It never convinced me.

A kid ties a red blanket around his neck, jumps from the top of a building and is seriously injured. People demand that all superhero comics be outlawed. Another kid plays violent action games, and one day shoots someone. People demand GTA and Saints Row be outlawed. Another kid watches Bugs Bunny cartoons and becomes unruly. People demand that the wascally wabbit be outlawed.

Hundreds of millions of kids read superhero comics, play shooting games or watch Bugs Bunny and it has zero effect on their daily lives. These kids can tell reality from fiction. A few kids, however, try to imitate irl the fictional behaviors they see. Are they mentally challenged? Are their parents to blame? I dunno. What I do know is that it's not a good excuse for censorship. Those who let fiction and reality get mixed in their heads need to learn the errors of their ways. You should teach them, instead of accusing whatever work of fiction messed them up. This is how it goes, for all kinds of fiction.

Totally agree with this. Just like reading fake news, we must always check again and again things before closing our perception. Not only fiction, everything that was told to you indirectly, by a media (here is a manga story), was already modified. It wasn't reality anymore.
Even when you saw the reality by yourself, it could be distorded also, because your perception could be influenced by your emotion or context etc. It is naivety that keep you doublecheck your perception. Instead of accusing fiction, teach ppl about what can be fictive from your point of view.
Misconception always exists. What's interesting about this fiction, is how it bring attention and question to lgbt subject, just like dramatic theatre.

last edited at May 30, 2020 6:20PM

A confession at a secret meeting spot under the full moon. How romantic.

last edited at May 30, 2020 7:10PM

sigh

Well, he sure came out swinging. o_o