Man. Chapter 6 really got people talking.

Man. Chapter 6 really got people talking.

if you're talking about the weird agenda karp has, that started before this chapter.

Your objection doesn’t get any less bizarre to me the more often you rephrase it. To return to your original statement of the problem, you seem to think that it’s some kind of ideological problem with the story that Hinako, who is defined by a remarkable degree of emotional repression and commitment to a rigid degree of “normality” even by Japanese standards, doesn’t consciously think to herself, “Gee, these dates with men leave me strangely unmoved, perhaps I am a lesbian,” since this would constitute “confronting her sexuality.”

No, I think the story is a coming out story, and the author has confusingly chosen to make the "coming out" part of it implicit instead of explicit. I'm concerned this is because of norms among yuri readers that they prefer these things to be unspoken, even in a situation where it really grinds against the entire concept of the story.

Coming out IS THE WAY Hinako overcomes her issues with being normal and repressing herself. If she ends the story like, "Oh well, I like this one woman but I will absolutely not think about myself more generally than that," then that does not seem as if she's done a very good job overcoming her repression, which was, like, the whole arc of the story.

(although apparently she instantly came to terms with it and could openly admit her feelings to the sister, and now the arc of the story is about that one lady's sister complex, so I actually have no clue what the fuck is going on anymore)

The fact that multiple people here report parallel experiences to Hinako’s in far less repressive cultural milieu than Japan’s suggests to me that the mere uttering of the phrases “gay” or “lesbian” doesn’t have nearly the magical consequences you’re ascribing to them.

This is another one of those things I'm wondering how it can be a productive, practical addition, and how I can respond to it. No one said these things, and the hostility of "magical consequences" suggests you don't really want to hear an answer, so, like, seriously: what are you wanting me to say, here?

karp, we have not always disagreed so strongly and (apparently) talked past each other in these forums until recently, but the fact that you can bend over backwards to laboriously rewrite a clumsy farrago like My Unrequited Love into something controlled and coherent, yet you find this straightforward story so “confusing” you “have no idea what’s going on,” and your repeated claims of being taken aback by my “hostility” when I attempt to paraphrase your position indicates to me that our exchanges have passed the point of diminishing returns.

Maybe you’ll have success making your positions clear to someone else, since I appear to be incapable of understanding you. Best of luck with that.

Wow

No, I think the story is a coming out story, and the author has confusingly chosen to make the "coming out" part of it implicit instead of explicit. I'm concerned this is because of norms among yuri readers that they prefer these things to be unspoken, even in a situation where it really grinds against the entire concept of the story.

Coming out IS THE WAY Hinako overcomes her issues with being normal and repressing herself. If she ends the story like, "Oh well, I like this one woman but I will absolutely not think about myself more generally than that," then that does not seem as if she's done a very good job overcoming her repression, which was, like, the whole arc of the story.

Hmm, I see two things here: this might be a coming out story and an adult coming-of-age one.

As far as the recent chapters are concerned, and with the way Hinako deems her mother (actually sees her mother) to be the "typical parent" (wanting happiness for their children without considering their kids' input), this might well be a "coming out" story. I can only deduce this much from panels where Hinako seems to be a bit terrified of the prospect of failing her mother by straying from the norm. Her friends are beginning to see the subtle changes and it began when Hinako bailed from an after-dinner invite just so she could run to Asahi with doughnuts and say something about the moon. She's beginning to acknowledge her feelings and her friends are slowly seeing it. I won't be surprised if in the next chapters her friends will figure out Hinako's pretty gay, maybe one of the girlfriends will find it icky or the recent cute guy will be the one defending her (i dunno, it'd be utterly awesome if there are straight male allies in the story like in Sasameki Koto)...

For Asahi, being the breadwinner (and also gay) is something I can relate to. Working my ass off to keep my family financially secure and my siblings happy made me put them first before myself. Minus the tragic part (my parents are still alive), I understand Asahi's insistence in saying Subaru is everything to her. I feel the same way for my siblings. I can imagine Asahi going home bone-tired from work, being greeted by her younger sister in good health and just basically a happy kid. I understand the feeling of nothing else matters besides that fact.
So, Asahi probably thinks she can go to work tomorrow rinse and repeat. She decides that's the point of HER LIFE.
Yet, Subaru has another outlook. She's too perceptive and smart for a teenager. But it takes the presence of Hinako to set things into motion (Subaru sees this as the chance to free Asahi from too much dwelling on obligation).

It's the same wound (loneliness) Hinako has but it comes from a different place. They are two lonely individuals who, if they give themselves a shot, the world will be less lonely. Hinako will be brave, unafraid of what the world thinks about her and Asahi will get out of her shell, realizing she doesn't need to shoulder everything.

So far, this is how I see the narrative.

My interpretation might sound a little wacky at first.

The manga seems to me to be a love story in which the two principle characters feel alternately "hollow" and "closed off"––visually analogous in both instances to the shape of a donut. The new state they are heading towards would be the crescent moon, a circle that is open, rather than closed off or hollowed out. In the case of both women, being open to loving each other is the theoretical answer to how they each can "become" that crescent moon.

But I think there's a second layer of development given to this idea: development expressed as a contrast between the two characters. It's a contrast which amplifies the sort of visual/thematic comparison between them implied in the title. It's a squaring–off of maturity vs. immaturity, in which Hinako is portrayed as being in a state of prolonged adolescence (she can't handle an adult job, is underprepared for living alone, and is dominated by a need to conform which many people give up as they gain self–confidence)––a state of dependency on others that she resents in herself––and Asahi is isolated in a determinedly parental adulthood. Hinako lacks the confidence she needs to feel like a whole adult, and she admires Asahi for what she perceives to be Asahi's maturity––i.e., her high–functioning ability at work, paired with her control over her emotional landscape (this chapter has revealed this to be a huge misconception on Hinako's part––Asahi isn't emotionally reserved so much as she is purposefully repressed) and with her almost unconsciously mothering initial attitude towards Hinako. And at the same time Asahi has become a high–functioning adult (at least in terms of breadwinning) without ever allowing herself any openings for emotional indulgence, exploration or expression. The link between the two leads, I think, turns out to be repression, but repression of two slightly different things––Hinako is withholding her unhappiness, hiding its presence from those around her, while Asahi is withholding her feelings even from herself; in essence, hiding her actual presence from those around her. The two of them are lucky to have discovered one another, because they manage to reach each another at a level which it is clear the background characters in the manga cannot access; Hinako needs Asahi's mothering, and Asahi needs Hinako to notice her (maybe the author's implication is that in her own repression, Hinako is more sensitive to Asahi's similar state, and that leads the two to discover one another?). At this point, I'm tempted to say that the two of them are actually more alike than different in regards to their emotional backgrounds, but I think if I pursue this idea a little further it will be clearer how the two series' leads differ. There are no strong antagonists in the series so far, after all––Hinako's mother has not appeared, her friends at work offer just the barest resistance to her taciturn and sometimes assertive new approach, and Asahi's sister is actively cheering them on (unlike others here I don't think the sister is coming on to Hinako––rather more that the sister, who it is implied is the most emotionally mature of this chapter's trio, would like Asahi to feel free to have an emotionally exciting life with a romantically–inclined peer). So it seems inevitable at this point that Hinako's and especially Asahi's personal obstacles have become the obstacles to their relationship.

I think a coming-out narrative is teased early on, perhaps not entirely purposefully, because Asahi appears to be in the closet, and hidden behind a veil of workmanlike competency. Coupled with that, Hinako is disturbed by her feelings. But Hinako isn't really disturbed by feelings of lesbian attraction, per se––as this most recent chapter suggests, Hinako doesn't know exactly what her feelings are yet, and loving another doesn't exactly raise the hackles on the back of her neck––rather, she's disturbed by her lack of feeling for hetero romantic partners; the lack of the fulfillment she thought she would feel by endeavoring to conform. There doesn't appear to be any necessary real-life stricture she feels evoking her need to conform––instead I think she feels incompetent, and not sufficiently grown-up, and she hopes to bury that insecurity behind hetero love success. That she perceives her hetero love-life as a failure is more important to her as another of her perceived failures to be an adult. Likewise, Asahi's veneer turns out to be not that she hasn't yet come out of the closet, but rather, it's a veneer of emotional defensiveness––she's afraid to fall in love. A lover would divide her time, and she imagines that would lead her to fail as a de-facto mother for her sister. Of course, her little sister knows different, and wants to see her happy. But it looks like it might be a while before Asahi allows herself to have any personal happiness.

I don't see that the author ever meant to deliver a coming–out story; I think instead the author is feinting at the genre trappings of the "secret office romance" simply to generate surface tension, giving our romantic leads pressure to get closer together, and directing them towards the real emotional arc of the story––an arc where both women are moving towards greater openness. Though I felt at the end of this chapter like that emotional arc could end up being pretty long. I don't expect Asahi to open up to romantic feelings too quickly––although Hinako seems much more willing in that regard. So they probably won't be seeing eye-to-eye too soon.

As far as the train crossing as a setting for romantic overtures, I think it offers dramatic clarity, as well as a nicely open visual metaphor. The dramatic clarity comes from the way a train crossing seems to freeze space and time. You have no choice; you have to wait there, and when you do so, you suddenly become aware you have nothing to occupy this stolen moment. You are suspended there, with no chance to move forward until this hurtling object passes by in front of you. If you are holding some secret in your heart, you might be confronted with it in those seconds which seem like minutes, minutes which seem like hours. If you're there with someone you secretly love, there might be nothing you can do with that time besides face your feelings. And if you should reveal them, the train thunders by in an impressive visual metaphor which complements that release of passion. It's a pretty neat little dramatic coup––a commonplace occurrence that suddenly closes and renders the dramatic space twice as intimate; happenstance pushing you forward into an improvised kabe–don. No one but the one closest to you will understand what you reveal when the train crosses. If you're alone with the one you love, no one will see you steal a kiss. So as a staging ground for the revelation and release of feelings, it offers great dramatic amenities, and if I were moving my characters towards a romance with one another, I'd be very tempted to use it as a scenario, should it occur pretty naturally. I think it does here and in Bloom Into You, as well.

This chapter really quieted my inner yuri sceptic. I would never have suspected that Uno would end up having to take the lead, in the relationship. I think Sakagami-san has his eye on Uno though. While I'm pretty sure my fear of a het twist ending has been put to rest, I can't rule out Sakagami-san becoming a romantic rival. After all Uno still has her mother's expectations to deal with. However it looks like it's going to be Uno chasing Satou, so I'm not sure how that's going to work. (scratching head) Maybe Sakagami-san is just a background character after all.

I wondered if Sakagami–san might turn out to be asexual.

I don't think we'll need to worry about Uno and Sakagami at all as far as relationship drama. After all, she did more or less actually stand up to her friends who were trying very obviously to set her up with Sakagami, and in doing so made a new friend by standing up for him, too.

She's already taking longer and longer strides toward standing up for herself and doing only what she genuinely wants to do.

Granted, her work friends are kind of like trash mobs in an MMORPG dungeon--easy to clear--and her mom is basically the final boss on heroic mode, but as long as she keeps grinding up those levels she'll eventually be able to stand up to and take down Okaasanus Maximus and win the game. (And also win her beloved Princess, who, while yes, is technically in another castle, it's a castle that she can visit her Princess and her Princess's wise and faithful court mage at, while sharing and imbibing enchanted cat shaped pastries ....)

last edited at Jan 27, 2020 3:28AM

@ClaudeSP89, @feihong

I don't have anything in particular to add, but I wanted to say that those were both really great interpretations of the story and I think they're pretty on base.

@feihong

I think the opinion of other readers that is closest to mine is your, but damn you really took your time, and boy was it worth a read.

@ClaudeSP89, @feihong

I don't have anything in particular to add, but I wanted to say that those were both really great interpretations of the story and I think they're pretty on base.

Damn, looks like everybody thinks I'm off the mark again. I aways feel like the goofy side kick that is completely clueless to what's really going on.

Damn, looks like everybody thinks I'm off the mark again. I aways feel like the goofy side kick that is completely clueless to what's really going on.

I think when it comes to Sakagami, he's not really there to act as a rival. Hinako and Asahi both have pretty major emotional issues to work through still, and Hinako's mom will likely be addressed as well. Additionally, I think we'll probably get a fair bit more from Subaru. With the way Chapter 6 is setting up the conflict for the volume, I don't see how there would be room to add in a love triangle. I think at worst, he might ask her out and get turned down.

Okaasanus Maximus

Lol
I think facing down that boss will be the real danger here, and repeatedly stepping on her head (usually 3 times) won't work....I mean...it will but she'll probably end up in jail.

Oooooooor, like Hinako already said before, maybe she is making the problem look bigger than it really is, maybe her mother's expectations are based on what Hinako told her were her objectives and not the other way around, maybe she is just cheering her daughter on on the goals she thought she set for herself.
But I very much doubt that.

last edited at Jan 27, 2020 5:08AM

Okaasanus Maximus

You know you've watched too much """""""Unbiased""""""" History when you read this in DovahHatty's voice.

Damn, looks like everybody thinks I'm off the mark again. I aways feel like the goofy side kick that is completely clueless to what's really going on.

I think when it comes to Sakagami, he's not really there to act as a rival. Hinako and Asahi both have pretty major emotional issues to work through still, and Hinako's mom will likely be addressed as well. Additionally, I think we'll probably get a fair bit more from Subaru. With the way Chapter 6 is setting up the conflict for the volume, I don't see how there would be room to add in a love triangle. I think at worst, he might ask her out and get turned down.

Meh no biggie. I came to a similar, but less sophisticated conclusion even as I was writing my post. I simply thought a love triangle didn't make sence, if Uno had to take the lead in her relationship, with Satou. Because as it stands now Satou wouldn't fight for Uno.She would simplly let Sakagami-san win. Plus Uno seems to have awakened to her true feelings. Going back to Sakagami-san would be a very disappointing step backward

last edited at Jan 27, 2020 7:00AM

@ClaudeSP89, @feihong

I don't have anything in particular to add, but I wanted to say that those were both really great interpretations of the story and I think they're pretty on base.

Damn, looks like everybody thinks I'm off the mark again. I aways feel like the goofy side kick that is completely clueless to what's really going on.

That's why i stop talking on those more serious Yuris. I never put much though when i'm reading.

I see all these Yagakimi mentions but honestly not seeing that big of a connection.

self avatar quote

Well, let's see, it's a yuri series that despite being a somewhat "cliché" setting (in one case senpai/kouhai in a club at school, in the other senpai/kouhai at an office, both pretty classic) gets significantly emotionally deeper than expected, and ends up being super poignant (to me at least). Also both deal with themes of not feeling like you are capable of loving others or that you are deserving love. More obviously, there's the train parallel people are mentioning, but that's less-defining for me.

Well, if we are talking just general feeling it gives you then that is hard to argue, sure. Being significantly deeper than expected is not exactly something that is specific to Yagakimi, even if you can describe it that way. They share some surface level themes as you say but ultimately handle them differently.

None of this is me saying you are wrong though, just that it seems more of a personal connection you feel between the two series rather than obvious direct parallels happening. At least we can agree that both are very good!

Based on the number of comments and the quality of them, I believe we can all conclude that there is no real interest in yuri featuring adults. Let's all move on from this. Plenty of other problems in 2020 for us to solve.

I dont think shes romantically into her sister, just devoted to parenting her and therefore, gave up on her love life. The sister wants this to not be true now that shes older and wants her sister to find love so shes rooting for MC.

My simple take on this 'twist'.

Ah, I see. Because everyone is gone, Satou feels entitled to her parental role to the point she couldn't allow herself to be selfish.

Though, I can sense there's probably more about the sisters. There's probably a reason why her sister is #1 top priority, perhaps something bad will happen if her sister is left alone?? (self-harming for example) And after her sister is all good and stable, Satou still couldn't leave her.

Or maybe she thinks that if she were to find love, she'll leave her sister all alone like how her family left her. These are my guesses anyways, looking forward to next chapters!

Ah, I see. Because everyone is gone, Satou feels entitled to her parental role to the point she couldn't allow herself to be selfish.

Though, I can sense there's probably more about the sisters. There's probably a reason why her sister is #1 top priority, perhaps something bad will happen if her sister is left alone?? (self-harming for example) And after her sister is all good and stable, Satou still couldn't leave her.

Or maybe she thinks that if she were to find love, she'll leave her sister all alone like how her family left her. These are my guesses anyways, looking forward to next chapters!

My hope is it resolves with them all living together - you don't need to abandon your sister to be in a long-term romantic relationship. I think that'd be sweet.

Little Red Rum posted:

Ah, I see. Because everyone is gone, Satou feels entitled to her parental role to the point she couldn't allow herself to be selfish.

Though, I can sense there's probably more about the sisters. There's probably a reason why her sister is #1 top priority, perhaps something bad will happen if her sister is left alone?? (self-harming for example) And after her sister is all good and stable, Satou still couldn't leave her.

I think it might be the opposite, I think Satou san is the one who needed Subaru for emotional support more than anyone, and after losing her grandma she was the only reason to keep going so she wants to repay that by making sure she grows without problem. Subaru realizes that but due to her age she doesn't have a valid argument to convince her sister to be happy on her own, after all, she still needs to study and she can't pay her own education. So at this point it was impossible to change the situation until the miracle called donuts happened..........sorry I meant to say Doughnuts

I dont think shes romantically into her sister, just devoted to parenting her and therefore, gave up on her love life. The sister wants this to not be true now that shes older and wants her sister to find love so shes rooting for MC.

My simple take on this 'twist'.

That's... obvious, yes, and on a quick skim I couldn't see anyone assuming different.

Ah, I see. Because everyone is gone, Satou feels entitled to her parental role to the point she couldn't allow herself to be selfish.

Though, I can sense there's probably more about the sisters. There's probably a reason why her sister is #1 top priority, perhaps something bad will happen if her sister is left alone?? (self-harming for example) And after her sister is all good and stable, Satou still couldn't leave her.

Or maybe she thinks that if she were to find love, she'll leave her sister all alone like how her family left her. These are my guesses anyways, looking forward to next chapters!

So far it reads as Asahi's gone ever so slightly wrong in the head from the emotional trauma of losing two sets of parental figures (first birth parents then grandma) within a relatively short time and the pressures of having had to become a de facto acting parent, presumably not particularly helped by a lack of emotional support networks owing to her solitary habits.

She's made her role as Subaru's guardian into the all-consuming focus of her existence, becoming a "martyr of duty" to paraphrase one characterisation of Franz Joseph I of Austria - except contrary to the "Old Emperor" who somewhat had it hoisted onto him by virtue of being born as the heir to the throne hers is a quite self-inflicted burden. A psychological coping mechanism of sorts, one assumes, but one that's taken a decidedly unhealthy turn what with the arbitrary categorical denial of the possibility of developing other significant relationships anytime ever and apparent taking for granted that the current state of affairs will somehow last indefinitely.

Subaru clearly has some very understandable concerns with all this.