Forum › A Room For Two discussion

45b4e36d555ca184502130f8249354c2--flcl-furi-kuri2
joined Jul 19, 2018

@Marion Diabolito

I almost included (as I have done previously) a qualifier about how Okazu has been important for the promotion of English-language yuri. Having known her work in that context is the reason I was so shocked at the degree and nature of these two particular misreadings (a term I do not use lightly—textual interpretation has a very large subjective element, but contrary to popular belief, it is possible to be just flat wrong).

As the course of the conversation in this forum indicates, depending on how a reader defines “yuri,” there’s plenty of room for debate about this series (to a much greater degree in the early stages, of course). There is (or was) a legitimate argument that the series is yuri bait (“legitimate” in the sense that I’d still strongly disagree but the premise is not entirely out of bounds).

But to assert that there is zero yuri content in the first two volumes is to raise the bar for “yuri” to the point of ignoring the specifics of the text itself, and that’s just, at best, very bad critical practice.

(And if the “zero” is supposed to be seen as an off-the-cuff overstatement, well, that’s not good criticism either.)

Although admittedly it's a bit more ambiguous in the early volumes it's quite apparent from the very start of the story that Sakurako must be either lesbian or bisexual and that she has a huge crush on Kasumi. I found the entire tone of Okazu's review rather negative and narrow minded which is a bit unusual since a lot of her reviews are much more balanced.

Utenaanthy01
joined Aug 4, 2018

Erica Friedman is an academic specializing in manga, the only one I know of focused on yuri manga specifically. Her website, okazu.yuricon.com, is the main online clearinghouse for information about and reviews of English-language yuri manga and anime. She’s a legitimate expert, in academia the yuri expert, not a random blogger.

Ever heard of Mark McLelland? Wim Lunsing? Rachel Thorn?
Admittedly, none of them works with an exclusive focus on yuri manga. They have a broader field of study, which includes BL, GL and queer manga. But any of them knows more about yuri than Ms. Friedman ever will. Also, you said "an academic specializing in manga" and "a legitimate expert, in academia the yuri expert." What academia are we talking about? She has a degree in Library Science and a bachelor in Comparative Literature, and that's about the extent of her training. She never had a faculty rank in any academic institution, or worked for any research project in an academic environment. She has been a guest at conventions and festivals as an internet personality, not as an academic expert. She has visited a few campuses and written articles for magazines by the same token. The rest is her blog. Now, compare with Rachel Thorn. She studied both in American and Japanese universities. She's a doctor in cultural anthropology and a master in East Asian Studies specialized in Japanese manga, and the list of distinctions conferred on her by various institutions is huge. Her academic work in America was so respected in Japan that she was chosen as a permanent associate professor in Kyoto Seika University (Department of Manga Studies) and has lived in Japan since then. Mind you, she still writes English papers, like a recent one about Takako Shimura's Wandering Son and Sweet Blue Flowers. I believe she has even given permission to Ms. Friedman to post some of her works in the Essays section of her blog. Thinking about it, the Essays section is probably the best part of that blog. I myself have given permission to Ms. Friedman to post a couple of my essays there. If you visit that section and check the names of the authors, I do think you'll find many who are way more competent than Ms. Friedman on the subject of yuri.

I agree that Ms. Friedman is not a random blogger. She's an influential blogger. Her website is huge, and, twenty years ago, was a preeminent source of information about yuri in the English-speaking world. But today? There are loads of places in the internet where you can find such information, many of them presenting data that is much more accurate, complete and comprehensive. Remember what Nezchan said before?

I am reasonably confident that zero of the staff here chose the tags thanks to Erica Friedman's comments.

I am quite confident that Nezchan is right, and with good reason: tagging is a form of cataloguing, and I know of nobody with a literary job to do and who takes it seriously who would use Ms. Friedman's viewpoints and opinions as a ground basis for their work. And that's because she has zero qualifications to talk about yuri manga with authority. Her opinion is worth as much as yours, or mine, or that of any other person. Actually, to be fair, her opinion is probably worth less, because you or me can back up our opinions with rational thought while she is incapable of doing it. She hates the vast majority of the yuri out there, but, when she writes a review lambasting some well-loved yuri series, she can't offer one good reason for her dislike -- only the political dogma of her radical lesbo-feminist agenda.

I have to say I'm really surprised to find you, of all people, defending her so vehemently. You are the one who was poking fun at people who (I quote) seem to be devoted to what amounts to a contemporary version of medieval canon law—only the overt depiction of mutually administered orgasms can qualify as consummation of a relationship, [...] a modern version of a traditional “bedding ritual” that is required before these de facto spouses can be truly said to be “going out.” Ms. Friedman is the foremost champion of this people, the supreme internet paladin of these twisted notions. In fact, the reason she hates 99,9% of the yuri out there is that the stories are focused on love, not sex -- and by her agenda that's anti-gay crapola and lesbian discrimination. I have trouble grasping what it is that you like so much in her, when her every idea and sentiment is set against us... and, as a matter of fact, she considers us, the readers who enjoy manga like A Room For Two, deluded fools or homophobic creeps.

last edited at Apr 18, 2019 10:20PM

joined Apr 6, 2019

I am reasonably confident that zero of the staff here chose the tags thanks to Erica Friedman's comments.

Is that so? I'm sorry. I could have sworn some guy said something like that before, that Erica's review had to do with the tag problem. Memory must have played a trick on me, because it's clear I misrecalled.

Looking back, I shouldn't have talked about that or quoted Erica's idiotic comments at all. Look at the mess it sparked.

joined Jan 29, 2018

I just noticed that its been liscenced now does it mean Dynasty wont be uploading fiture chapters?

Eivhbyw
joined Aug 26, 2018

It's nice to see actual insight on why their relationship is free of conflict. Saku is just doing everything without question. Kasumi's iiving the high life...

Sakurako as a counselor, huh? I'm not too sure about that. She's got the open personality, but her common sense in matters of relationships is a bit skewed haha

The only reason to get married is for legal benefits. Sakurako's got that right lol

Wow the having children thing came back full swing this time around. Even if Saku doesn't become a mad scientist, the iPS cell research will probably have a breakthrough in a decade or two. They just need to wait a bit longer. I understand why Saku wants super babies from their superior genes, but adopted kids is also an option.

I just noticed that its been liscenced now does it mean Dynasty wont be uploading fiture chapters?

It's been licensed for over half a year now. Dynasty has not moved yet.

last edited at Apr 17, 2019 4:20AM

New%20dynasty%20reader%20profile
joined Oct 22, 2018

Man, I'm so grateful to myself for NOT getting involved in the whole Erica discussion, lol

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

Can folks please take the Erica Freidman bashing over to Reddit or 4chan or wherever the hell people go to do that sort of thing?

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

So the admins tagged it as subtext only, not yuri, and loads of readers believed it. That's why there used to be so many posts debating the 'hints of dating' between them, and whether we as fans could assume them to be a couple. In time the admins realized their mistake and corrected the tagging, and that was how the silly debate came to an end. And the admins learned a lesson: never trust Erica Friedman, never.

I am reasonably confident that zero of the staff here chose the tags thanks to Erica Friedman's comments. But keep writing that fanfic, I'm interested to see where it goes from here.

It totally ships you with Erica Friedman.

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

I am reasonably confident that zero of the staff here chose the tags thanks to Erica Friedman's comments. But keep writing that fanfic, I'm interested to see where it goes from here.

It totally ships you with Erica Friedman.

Jeeze, tag your spoilers!

White%20rose%20index
joined Aug 16, 2018

Most people tend to assume conflict is the one major literary element without which a narrative structure cannot move forward, and expect to see a whole lot of it in any good story. Writers are often judged by how many points of conflict they include in a tale, how these conflicts are resolved, and how neatly and satisfyingly the closure is tied up. The ancient Greeks already held "agon" (the act of conflict) as the central unit of any plot; and, even today, many contemporary critics believe that conflict is the crucial feature of any literary creation -- or, in other words, that a story simply must have conflict as an indispensable source of tension and drama to hold the interest of the audience.

And, well, to all these people, I guess Yukiko-sensei would reply like this:

haha-ha haha-ha haha-ha ah-haa BLLLLL ah-haha

There were commenters who wrote that conflict was indeed here, because you could find small conflicts every chapter between the MCs. Reading these two chapters, I wonder what they were talking about. In some panels, Sakurako whines about some minor thing; then, next panel, Kasumi mollifies her and Sakurako is happy again. Are they taking these humorous 2-panel sequences as examples of conflict?
That might fit the basic dictionary definition of conflict, but not quite the definition of conflict as the "central unit of the plot" in literature.

Hmm...
Just to play Devil's advocate (lol), what about the times Kasumi confiscated or deleted Sakurako's collections of secret pics and tapes? You know, all that Kasumi-themed memorabilia Sakurako had acquired by secretly photographing or recording Kasumi?

Tron-legacy
joined Dec 11, 2017

I am reasonably confident that zero of the staff here chose the tags thanks to Erica Friedman's comments. But keep writing that fanfic, I'm interested to see where it goes from here.

It totally ships you with Erica Friedman.

Jeeze, tag your spoilers!

No spoiler, I'm just speculating. ;p

Untitled%203
joined Feb 3, 2013

Random question: can any of you even imagine Kasumi taking care of a baby?

last edited at Apr 17, 2019 10:51AM

Eivhbyw
joined Aug 26, 2018

Random question: can any of you even imagine Kasumi taking care of a baby?

Nope. We all know who would be responsible for the kids.

Nevri Uploader
Rosmontis
Nevrilicious Scans
joined Jun 5, 2015

BugDevil posted:

Random question: can any of you even imagine Kasumi taking care of a baby?

Nope. We all know who would be responsible for the kids.

Kid would be taking care of Kasumi, because mama is too lazy.

Utenaanthy01
joined Aug 4, 2018

Most people tend to assume conflict is the one major literary element without which a narrative structure cannot move forward, and expect to see a whole lot of it in any good story. Writers are often judged by how many points of conflict they include in a tale, how these conflicts are resolved, and how neatly and satisfyingly the closure is tied up. The ancient Greeks already held "agon" (the act of conflict) as the central unit of any plot; and, even today, many contemporary critics believe that conflict is the crucial feature of any literary creation -- or, in other words, that a story simply must have conflict as an indispensable source of tension and drama to hold the interest of the audience.

And, well, to all these people, I guess Yukiko-sensei would reply like this:

haha-ha haha-ha haha-ha ah-haa BLLLLL ah-haha

There were commenters who wrote that conflict was indeed here, because you could find small conflicts every chapter between the MCs. Reading these two chapters, I wonder what they were talking about. In some panels, Sakurako whines about some minor thing; then, next panel, Kasumi mollifies her and Sakurako is happy again. Are they taking these humorous 2-panel sequences as examples of conflict?
That might fit the basic dictionary definition of conflict, but not quite the definition of conflict as the "central unit of the plot" in literature.

Hmm...
Just to play Devil's advocate (lol), what about the times Kasumi confiscated or deleted Sakurako's collections of secret pics and tapes? You know, all that Kasumi-themed memorabilia Sakurako had acquired by secretly photographing or recording Kasumi?

Well, those were played for jokes and solved in one strip, two at most. It still wouldn't fit the "central unit of the plot" definition.

52722-l
joined Nov 8, 2017

Man, I'm so grateful to myself for NOT getting involved in the whole Erica discussion, lol

Same. I didn't even know about her before it started. lol

0328
joined Jun 12, 2015

BugDevil posted:

Random question: can any of you even imagine Kasumi taking care of a baby?

Nope. We all know who would be responsible for the kids.

Kid would be taking care of Kasumi, because mama is too lazy.

Nah, she is going to fight the kids for Sakurako attention

52722-l
joined Nov 8, 2017

BugDevil posted:

Random question: can any of you even imagine Kasumi taking care of a baby?

Nope. We all know who would be responsible for the kids.

Kid would be taking care of Kasumi, because mama is too lazy.

Nah, she is going to fight the kids for Sakurako attention

I think Sakurako would be the one fighting the kids for Kasumi's attention

Eivhbyw
joined Aug 26, 2018

Kid would be taking care of Kasumi, because mama is too lazy.

Nah, she is going to fight the kids for Sakurako attention

Hah. Now I imagine Saku feeding the baby with a bottle of milk and Kasumi lying next to her and staring jealously until Saku stuffs one into her mouth too.

joined Jan 6, 2017

Kid would be taking care of Kasumi, because mama is too lazy.

Nah, she is going to fight the kids for Sakurako attention

Hah. Now I imagine Saku feeding the baby with a bottle of milk and Kasumi lying next to her and staring jealously until Saku stuffs one into her mouth too.

Or perhaps she's not using a bottle.

Eivhbyw
joined Aug 26, 2018

Hah. Now I imagine Saku feeding the baby with a bottle of milk and Kasumi lying next to her and staring jealously until Saku stuffs one into her mouth too.

Or perhaps she's not using a bottle.

Let's just say Sakurako doesn't look like the breastfeeding type.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

BugDevil posted:

Random question: can any of you even imagine Kasumi taking care of a baby?

Nope. We all know who would be responsible for the kids.

Kid would be taking care of Kasumi, because mama is too lazy.

We tend to forget it because we don't often actually see her doing it, but Kasumi can be a hard worker when she needs to be.

0328
joined Jun 12, 2015

BugDevil posted:

Random question: can any of you even imagine Kasumi taking care of a baby?

Nope. We all know who would be responsible for the kids.

Kid would be taking care of Kasumi, because mama is too lazy.

Nah, she is going to fight the kids for Sakurako attention

I think Sakurako would be the one fighting the kids for Kasumi's attention

It would just be a repeat of that time when Sakurako had some virtual Kasumi cat girl, but this time, Kasumi can't just delete the kid (I hope...)

Eivhbyw
joined Aug 26, 2018

Kid would be taking care of Kasumi, because mama is too lazy.

We tend to forget it because we don't often actually see her doing it, but Kasumi can be a hard worker when she needs to be.

While I can definitely see Kasumi pulling through when it matters or when she is in a good mood, we need to consider that as long as Sakurako is around she will not have to lift a finger. Kasumi is self-sufficient only when Saku isn't taking care of everything.
Though she is not good with annoying things, so I can see her being especially suicidal when a baby cries all night lol

So as a parent, Kasumi would probably be the one spoiling the kids or saying "It's fine, right?". As long as her wife teaches them manners, she will be alright.

joined Apr 6, 2019

Just to play Devil's advocate (lol), what about the times Kasumi confiscated or deleted Sakurako's collections of secret pics and tapes? You know, all that Kasumi-themed memorabilia Sakurako had acquired by secretly photographing or recording Kasumi?

Well, those were played for jokes and solved in one strip, two at most. It still wouldn't fit the "central unit of the plot" definition.

Also: Sakurako's attitude. She acted like she knew she had been naughty, and done something she shouldn't have. And it's easy to see why.

I recall a comic I read where a girl was bragging about her boyfriend. He was really nice, and attentive, and accomodating; he took good care of her and pampered her, even when she asked for selfish stuff. For example: she had a cosplay hobby, she liked to dress people in costumes, and he was ok with it and willing to let her do all she wanted; so she often dressed him up as a fairy, with a skirt and big butterfly wings, and she took pics and put them on her website. These pics were very popular; she posted the links in forums for the drag fandom, and her site got lots of hits. The other girl, after listening to all of this, was very impressed:

"Wow! He even lets you take pics of him in fairy drag? And upload them to your website? He must really love you!"

And the first girl, making a coy face, replied:

"Weeell... he doesn't know yet about the website..."

This is a good example of why, in times of the internet, you don't want those pictures or recordings of you that you don't want to go around to be out of your hands. That's why it's reasonable for Kasumi to be not happy to find that Sakurako took pics of her and filmed and recorded her without her knowing, like when asleep or in the shower; and also why Sakurako, caught being naughty, can't really complain when Kasumi takes that stuff from her.

To reply you must either login or sign up.