Forum › Mousou Envy discussion
And that's what we read Naoko Kodama stories for, the healthy relationships. ;)
No, for the discussions! xD
KODAMA!
“Why do I love trash like her?” such a heartwarming and realistic story
Holy shit, Nevri. In that case, then you can kick out your tenant. You cannot rape them. Coercion is illegal. And the two instances ARE equivalent acts of coercion, legally. In this story, it was just a dramatic plot device, that's it. But in real life, you're proposing it's okay to rape someone if they owe you something. And an ultimatum is not a free choice, it's still rape.
When a landlord intentionally rents to women that they know won't be able to pay rent, then demands sexual favors from them so they can stay, it's not okay.
And of course everyone would support asking for rent, that's what you can do in a civilized society. You cannot demand sex as payment, for anything. Ever. EVER.
last edited at Sep 9, 2018 1:34AM
Holy shit, Nevri. In that case, then you can kick out your tenant. You cannot rape them. Coercion is illegal. And the two instances ARE equivalent acts of coercion, legally. In this story, it was just a dramatic plot device, that's it. But in real life, you're proposing it's okay to rape someone if they owe you something. And an ultimatum is not a free choice, it's still rape.
When a landlord intentionally rents to women that they know won't be able to pay rent, then demands sexual favors from them so they can stay, it's not okay.
And of course everyone would support asking for rent, that's what you can do in a civilized society. You cannot demand sex as payment, for anything. Ever. EVER.
You are absolutely right. Some people just refuse to be civilized. Even though kohai calls her senpai trash, it's the kohai who is detestable.
We can't know if the senpai was doing any work around the house, but it's clear she is not suited for the Japanese workforce. It's so like them to look down on someone who needs help with things or can't support themselves alone, and it's usually the parents who step in to help in these cases (while still complaining that they have a no good child), we don't get any context about senpai's family background.
Urgh, I just hate this whole concept of if you can't get a job you are worthless.
This is the best kind of Naoko Kodama story, where both of the leads are kinda awful people so that you don't have to feel bad for either of them.
What is awful about MC? Randomly insult a character like that is awful.
It wasn't rape, because senpai had the full autonomy to leave. It wasn't taking advantage of a vulnerable person, because senpai intentionally didn't want to find work and just wanted to mooch off people. If anything, the request for sex was a fair AND admirable decision. Admirable because MC wasn't a doormat that let people step all over her without doing anything about it, but she wasn't nasty about it either. Truly awful people would have pretended to be nice and selfless on the surface then talked behind the other's back in contempt.
Are you serious? A drunken person cannot give consent, it's rape by definition.
They are both horrible people: vain, shallow, selfish, egocentric, stupid too. Nothing wrong with that in a story of course! Lolz!
Anyhow: Canadian Vodka! For the win!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/mousou_envy#9
And it's "live" not "leave" on that page... probably.
She had every right to kick her out, but issuing an ultimatum like that on the spur of the moment is the kind of thing that's a very bad idea in real life. It's not fair to expect someone to make that kind of decision on the spot without time to think about their options, and it's not likely lead to a healthy relationship.
I mean, it's "fine" here because it's fiction and Keiko seems okay with it and is an unsympathetic character anyway, but I've seen that exact kind of situation end very, very badly IRL. Don't try this at home, basically.
It's pretty fair if they've been staying at your house for three months with no attempts to support you or pay rent or even look for a job if you ask me. There was nothing healthy about that relationship to begin with. Trying to make that relationship healthy is like telling a morbidly obese person to eat more fruit.
Still though, this is what happens when Kodama Naoko tries to make characters as ready as possible.
If I have to write how the men should behave in yuri story, then probably this is it.
"I wanted her to be even more garbage."
Oh, Naoko.
“Why do I love trash like her?”
Because you want another person to completely depend on you, and Keiko wants to be a person like that. It's that simple.
Anyhow: Canadian Vodka! For the win!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/mousou_envy#9
I was about to comment on dat product placement, too. :D
Wait. Who is bisexual here? Keiko? I don't think so. It's like saying: all porn actresses are bi coz they are doing weird things for money.
Holy shit, Nevri. In that case, then you can kick out your tenant. You cannot rape them. Coercion is illegal. And the two instances ARE equivalent acts of coercion, legally. In this story, it was just a dramatic plot device, that's it. But in real life, you're proposing it's okay to rape someone if they owe you something. And an ultimatum is not a free choice, it's still rape.
When a landlord intentionally rents to women that they know won't be able to pay rent, then demands sexual favors from them so they can stay, it's not okay.
And of course everyone would support asking for rent, that's what you can do in a civilized society. You cannot demand sex as payment, for anything. Ever. EVER.
If it is yuri it is not illegal.~
Another rape argument? Jesus cries, it's just a manga. Why are there always people who read so much into it.
lol there is no rape. Senpai hit the jackpot she is happy because now she doesn't have to find exuces about getting a job. She tried to hook up with a random boy because it would be fun I think she doesn't care unless she has fun.
The title doesn't make sense. "Delusion envy" ?
Holy shit, Nevri. In that case, then you can kick out your tenant. You cannot rape them. Coercion is illegal. And the two instances ARE equivalent acts of coercion, legally.
Lol wut. They are not. She is not a damn landlord. She is not renting house for people. She let friend stay until she finds a job, but after few months of freeloading on her place, forcing her to pay for senpai and in general not doing anything to change her situation, MC had enough and decided it is time she actually give her something in return. And nobody nowhere said it has to be money. She owns the damn place, she sets the rules. There is no law anywhere saying "if you let people stay at your place, they can only pay you with money". If what she asked her to do was something like cleaning or cooking, you would be throwing a tantrum too how she can't demand it? Nobody would even blink. But because she asked for sex, she suddenly is evil. When you rent a house, room, whatever you sign a specific contract that tells you how you pay. So if your landlord then suddenly comes and tells you, you have to have sex instead, that is abuse and you have legal rights to sue them. If you didn't pay for months and landlord came and told you, you have to leave now, but I'm nice and can let you stay, if you have sex with me, then you would say it is coercion too? You didn't pay the damn rent anyway, so you're in no position to make any demands or complains. When your friend keeps their lazy ass for months, makes you spending money on them and you decided it's time they pay up and ask for sex, that is up to you to decided. And honestly, do you think senpai has money to pay for rent at the moment? When she didn't work for months and is leeching off MC? Had MC actually ask for money, senpai would have no option to pay and would be kick out. She would end up on the street without any options. It would be exactly the same situation, but people somehow don't accuse MC of extortion. MC is demanding money from senpai on the spot, without giving her any time to get it and forces her to leave if she doesn't pay. That is totally abuse of her power!
The lengths you guys are going to defend someone who by story itself is considered a trash, is really unbelievable. She didn't bother to put any effort into work, because she know she can always rely on her friend to freeload on her place and not do anything. She specifically has no intention of working, as long as someone can support her. MC was enabling her that, so senpai felt like she had no reason to even look for work, despite MC clearly asking her to find one. MC simply finally decided to stop doing it and ask for something in return for her kindness. Actually, had she not been attracted to senpai in the first place, she would kick her out probably after a month max. And again, you say (since supposedly she has no other friends and most likely no savings to rent a place until finding a job) kicking her out on the street without money would be better than giving her a option to pay a rent, she actually can afford. I'm seriously lost how all of this makes MC the most terrible person here.
In this story, it was just a dramatic plot device, that's it. But in real life, you're proposing it's okay to rape someone if they owe you something. And an ultimatum is not a free choice, it's still rape.
Good thing, she doesn't rape her then. And yea if she asked for money, it would be ultimatum too. Do you want to say it would be unfair of her too to ask for money immediately when senpai clearly has nothing and kick her out then? MC didn't care about money. She wanted to have sex with senpai. So she asked for something she actually wanted instead of money she didn't really need.
When a landlord intentionally rents to women that they know won't be able to pay rent, then demands sexual favors from them so they can stay, it's not okay.
Rotlf. Intentionally? You all really love to twist it just so you can say MC is a terrible person. She wanted to help friend out. She let her stay for months without asking for anything. But senpai had no intention of changing it and actually was blatantly abusing her good will, because it suited her and she never even considered MC my get feed up with it. In fact, MC only went for it when senpai straight told her, she doesn't really care about real relationship. As long as she can find a rich person willing to support her so she doesn't have to work, she is fine with it.
And of course everyone would support asking for rent, that's what you can do in a civilized society. You cannot demand sex as payment, for anything. Ever. EVER.
Said who? Show me a law saying money is only acceptable way to pay for anything and having sex as a payment is illegal.
You all are so damn pure. There is nothing wrong with paying with your body, when you're ok with it. It doesn't cheapen it or anything. It actually make it valuable. Not everyone consider it shameful or something. Senpai clearly didn't have enough pride to refuse, since it let her keep her current life style.
You are absolutely right. Some people just refuse to be civilized. Even though kohai calls her senpai trash, it's the kohai who is detestable.
Yea, because giving something to someone for free is civilized. But actually asking for something in return is is uncivilized. She give senpai a deal, which she agreed to. That is definition of civilized. She has no obligation to let her stay in her home for free.
We can't know if the senpai was doing any work around the house, but it's clear she is not suited for the Japanese workforce.
Lol. It isn't that senpai can't get a job, she doesn't want one. She makes no effort to even trying doing the work she do get. It isn't that she is not suitable to Japanese workforce. She is simply lazy and wants to be taken care off.
it's usually the parents who step in to help in these cases (while still complaining that they have a no good child), we don't get any context about senpai's family background.
Urgh, I just hate this whole concept of if you can't get a job you are worthless.
Sure just because you can't get a job, it doesn't make you worthless. Still world is not charity, so if you can't support yourself, no one else will. Nobody will hold your hand your entire life. And yes, at first parents can support you, but you can't expect them to simply take care of you your entire life. At some point they won't be able to and then what? It is fine to rely on them in the time of need, but you can't expect them to do everything for you. And that is also the main issue. Parents would feel obligated to help you no matter what, because you're family etc. MC is not senpai's mom. She has no obligation to provide her with home and food/money indefinitely. And you also give me next argument. Unless senpai's parents were feed up with her and saw her as a trash she is, there was no reason she couldn't just go to them to stay for the time being. But, maybe, just maybe, she was fully aware if she had done that, they would nag her non-stop to find a work and not let her do as she pleases, so she chose MC's place specifically because she knew, she can just ignore her complains and abuse their relationship. Again, how that makes MC the most terrible person here escapes me...
Are you serious? A drunken person cannot give consent, it's rape by definition.
Where exactly it shows Senpai being drunk? Also just because you drink a bit, it doesn't mean you can't give a consent. You can't only do it, when you are actually unaware of what's going on. Yes, it is hard to recognize when someone gives you actual consent and when they are drunk, but drinking any amount of alcohol doesn't magically make you free of consequences. In fact people who fully consciously agreed to sex during party and then regretted it next day and cried rape, are a real issue, because you can't really prove it one way of another.
They are both horrible people: vain, shallow, selfish, egocentric, stupid too.
Please do point me out instances where MC is shown to be either of those.
last edited at Sep 9, 2018 7:18AM
....if someone doesn't want sex or anything and it's forced on them. It's rape...period point blank.....
I just think the author was going for something humorous. The MC didn't understand at first why she put up with sempai, but then realized that was because sempai turned her on and decided to act on it.
Sempai was surprised, but not that much against it. She obviously understood that the threat of making her leave was empty and it saved her the trouble of finding a guy to support her lazy ass.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/mousou_envy#17 last panel shows that she's actively participating.
It could be construed as "rape", but rape is often subjective. Someone can feel raped because one touched their butt, but some other can have a drunk one night stand with someone they don't even like and don't feel any loss.
In this case, I don't think sempai felt raped.
last edited at Sep 9, 2018 7:38AM
,,Why do I love trash like her!'' xDDD
That poor guy, all he wanted to do was use the bathroom.
From a legal standpoint, I'm not sure if what she did could constitute rape (at least where I live). "Duress" and "threat of retaliation" are defined such that it has to be threat of bodily harm, false imprisonment, abuse of official power, or something like that. I think gaining consent by threatening to do something you have every legal right of doing ("Have sex with me or leave") wouldn't constitute rape under the law here, but I'm not sure. Discussions like this always make me curious about the specifics of the law. In any case, the rape issue is really hypothetical. If Sempai decides that she consented and was acting voluntarily, then the issue is moot.
But all that aside, I thought this was story funny, and kind of sweet, in a weird twisted way, since it ended happily for everyone. I really liked Asumi's thoughts at the end. To me, that's kind of the core of Kodama Naoko's works: this idea that love isn't some choice we make, and it doesn't makes sense. We fall in love with people for mysterious reasons, and then that love drives us to act in irrational ways.
Also, since I think this came out in 2013, I wonder if she's satisfied yet with the garbage characters she's written since then....
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yeah that was a naoko story
Hahaa I love hoe you can just tell it's a story from them. Like besides the very recognizable art style, just from the story alone you can tell.
Everytime a new Kodama Naoko works posted here I'm definitely gonna look at the comments first
Oh no I look at it after and just enjoy the raging discussion unfold.