[Touko] did fairly well being a(n oblivious) friend to Sayaka

I just happened to re-read some of the Sayaka chapters, and I don’t think Touko really is that oblivious, like when she says, “[Sayaka] lets me keep my secrets.”

She’s oblivious about what Sayaka means by taking her arm when meeting the ex-lover at the train station, but she has no reason to understand that, and I’m pretty sure she doesn’t know about the full nature of Sayaka’s love for her, but (and let me see if I can get this right):

• Touko knows that Sayaka knows that Touko isn’t really like she presents herself in public
• Touko knows that the fact that Sayaka pretends to not know that Touko isn’t really like she presents herself in public is because of Sayaka’s affection for Touko
• (this part is speculation) I think Touko knows that Sayaka would like to be closer to her, and that Sayaka not trying to be closer is also because of Sayaka’s affection for her

So (if I’m right) that’s a pretty perceptive and nuanced kind of “obliviousness.”

Let’s face it, Yuu’s the best, so no one is actually good enough for Yuu.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Touko] did fairly well being a(n oblivious) friend to Sayaka

I just happened to re-read some of the Sayaka chapters, and I don’t think Touko really is that oblivious, like when she says, “[Sayaka] lets me keep my secrets.”

She’s oblivious about what Sayaka means by taking her arm when meeting the ex-lover at the train station, but she has no reason to understand that, and I’m pretty sure she doesn’t know about the full nature of Sayaka’s love for her, but (and let me see if I can get this right):

• Touko knows that Sayaka knows that Touko isn’t really like she presents herself in public
• Touko knows that the fact that Sayaka pretends to not know that Touko isn’t really like she presents herself in public is because of Sayaka’s affection for Touko
• (this part is speculation) I think Touko knows that Sayaka would like to be closer to her, and that Sayaka not trying to be closer is also because of Sayaka’s affection for her

So (if I’m right) that’s a pretty perceptive and nuanced kind of “obliviousness.”

My impression is that Touko is partially aware she is keeping Sayaka on the friendzone. But the awareness is not full because in her mind she can have the excuse that Sayaka might not be a lesbian after all.

I'm wondering how many chapters the anime will cover. The pacing in the manga doesn't give the impression that there's much room for further improvement. It'd be quite a tragedy if the plot is rushed. Almost as worrisome would be a "go read the manga" ending.

12 eps would be too little to cover all the materials & 24 eps would be too many. This is why I don't like how almost every anime has to stick to these numbers. It's most likely going to be one cour, so in order for the anime to reach any sort of proper resolution (I'm guessing the play), it will need to cut out some earlier chaps.

I just happened to re-read some of the Sayaka chapters, and I don’t think Touko really is that oblivious, like when she says, “[Sayaka] lets me keep my secrets.”

She’s oblivious about what Sayaka means by taking her arm when meeting the ex-lover at the train station, but she has no reason to understand that, and I’m pretty sure she doesn’t know about the full nature of Sayaka’s love for her, but (and let me see if I can get this right):

• Touko knows that Sayaka knows that Touko isn’t really like she presents herself in public
• Touko knows that the fact that Sayaka pretends to not know that Touko isn’t really like she presents herself in public is because of Sayaka’s affection for Touko
• (this part is speculation) I think Touko knows that Sayaka would like to be closer to her, and that Sayaka not trying to be closer is also because of Sayaka’s affection for her

So (if I’m right) that’s a pretty perceptive and nuanced kind of “obliviousness.”

I think what Touko meant by that is that Sayaka doesn't pry into her personal bubble. Sayaka is super perceptive and always questions Touko whenever she's suspicious of her hiding something from her. However, when Touko tries to dodge the question, Sayaka just leaves it at that. The way the conversation that led up to Touko's monologue was framed, we can assume that Touko knows that Sayaka is aware of her secrets, but thinks that it's only on the surface level. Because what she said here is that "as long as I can keep up the perfect act, she won't go searching for what I'm hiding." This is why Touko says Sayaka is kind and being around her is safe "in a different way than Yuu." Touko doesn't reason why Sayaka is "kind" the way she is towards her. She isn't associating Sayaka's kindness to any sort of affection, just like how she doesn't associate Yuu's kindness to any sort of affection. What makes them kind to her is the way they act. Yuu won't judge her for being weak and Sayaka won't dig up her lies. Maybe there's a part in her brain that thinks that there's more to Sayaka's kindness than what meets the eyes, just like her suspicion of Yuu back in ch 24, but her full consciousness just doesn't connect any of these things together. I'm saying this because despite possible suspicion, it took Yuu to flat out say it to her face this chapter for her to painfully realize that she's been unknowingly hurting her feelings. I think it is the same case for Sayaka. Suggesting that she is aware of Sayaka's affection, even if not the full extent of it, means that we're suggesting that she has been knowingly using emotional manipulation on her and I don't think that has been the direction of the narrative. However, this is still a really interesting topic to bring up and now I'm very curious to see how Touko will react to Sayaka's confession, assuming she will do it at some point. Will she just sorrily but firmly reject Sayaka (the whole speculation on her accepting Sayaka's confession is really implausible at this point) or will she again be anguishing over the realization that she's been hurting her best friend's feelings before finally rejecting her, of course?

last edited at Aug 2, 2018 1:54PM

Suggesting that she is aware of Sayaka's affection, even if not the full extent of it, means that we're suggesting that she has been knowingly using emotional manipulation on her and I don't think that has been the direction of the narrative.

No, I certainly wouldn't say that at all. I think, like anybody else in regard to their best friends, Touko is just more comfortable around Sayaka than around others, without probing extremely deeply into the other person's motivations to determine why that is.

But Sayaka is special to her, and vice versa, which we've known from the beginning. Sayaka specifically hasn't made any attempt to get closer than she already is, so Touko has had no occasion to overtly fend her off (the backyard fireworks scene perhaps being a small exception). We start off the series, after all, with Sayaka as overseer of Touko's repeated rejections of other people's confessions, so Sayaka has had no desire to join their (extensive) ranks.

So, no, I didn't mean to suggest any conscious emotional manipulation by Touko, but simply that we have two hyper-aware people who are closer (prior to Yuu's appearance) to each other than to anybody else, and that Touko is aware that Sayaka is being considerate of her emotional needs without Touko having to articulate them.

I think that the chances of a Sayaka confession (in the sense of an attempt to establish a romantic relationship with Touko) in the immediate future are really rather low. I do think the chances of Sayaka revealing her feelings are much higher, but I would expect it to be in the context of articulating some sort of "I want my beloved to be happy" stance.

To do otherwise would be to consciously compete with Yuu, which I don't think Sayaka wants to do for several reasons, perhaps the least of which being that she doesn't believe she would win.

(I'm too lazy to quote the posts above since there are too many)

Adding to this- How much Touko was aware of Yuu and Sayaka's affections- discussion:

I'm a bit more surprised Touko was completely clueless about Yuu's feelings. She can be the typical"oblivious to love" type that is very present on anime and manga, but there are a few instances where she was shown suspecting something may be up with Yuu: chapter 13 & 24 (the scene where she stares at Yuu after the latter says she invited her out because no one else was available) are the best examples, because Touko was outright suspicious. Maybe she convinced herself it was just her imagination, since she really didn't want to be loved by Yuu? In chapter 13 she seemingly believed Yuu's explanation, so there's that. But in chapter 24 she was just distracted before Yuu could say something. There are other minor examples that are worth noticing as well. Yuu holding her hand on the aquarium didn't raise an eyebrow in the slightest? Or Yuu's sexual attraction to her, a fact Touko has known since chapter 16, after Yuu told her kissing felt good. It didn't occur to Touko that maybe that sexual attraction could be due to love? After all, before chapter 16 Yuu either reluctantly agreed or rejected (chapter 15 when she pushed Touko away) her advances. We can conclude that Touko really is the oblivious type, I guess... or was in denial(?).

Regarding Sayaka, there's no hint that Touko is aware of her feelings, but chapter 26 kinda revealed that she knows Sayaka will always agree to whatever Touko says, that's why Touko asked her opinion on the new script (something Sayaka confirmed later). We know that Touko has been using Yuu and Sayaka for different purposes, and with the former it was something Yuu agreed to. With the latter, there's just one scene where Touko asks Sayaka to be by her side because it helps her, and Sayaka accepts. Sayaka has always been more than happy to help Touko, so it's fine.
But yeah, I guess the special 3 is a good indicator that Touko doesn't suspect anything regarding Sayaka's feelings. She just thinks Sayaka is the unconditional best friend.

(I'm too lazy to quote the posts above since there are too many)

Adding to this- How much Touko was aware of Yuu and Sayaka's affections- discussion:

I'm a bit more surprised Touko was completely clueless about Yuu's feelings. She can be the typical"oblivious to love" type that is very present on anime and manga, but there are a few instances where she was shown suspecting something may be up with Yuu: chapter 13 & 24 (the scene where she stares at Yuu after the latter says she invited her out because no one else was available) are the best examples, because Touko was outright suspicious. Maybe she convinced herself it was just her imagination, since she really didn't want to be loved by Yuu? In chapter 13 she seemingly believed Yuu's explanation, so there's that. But in chapter 24 she was just distracted before Yuu could say something. There are other minor examples that are worth noticing as well. Yuu holding her hand on the aquarium didn't raise an eyebrow in the slightest? Or Yuu's sexual attraction to her, a fact Touko has known since chapter 16, after Yuu told her kissing felt good. It didn't occur to Touko that maybe that sexual attraction could be due to love? After all, before chapter 16 Yuu either reluctantly agreed or rejected (chapter 15 when she pushed Touko away) her advances. We can conclude that Touko really is the oblivious type, I guess... or was in denial(?).

Regarding Sayaka, there's no hint that Touko is aware of her feelings, but chapter 26 kinda revealed that she knows Sayaka will always agree to whatever Touko says, that's why Touko asked her opinion on the new script (something Sayaka confirmed later). We know that Touko has been using Yuu and Sayaka for different purposes, and with the former it was something Yuu agreed to. With the latter, there's just one scene where Touko asks Sayaka to be by her side because it helps her, and Sayaka accepts. Sayaka has always been more than happy to help Touko, so it's fine.
But yeah, I guess the special 3 is a good indicator that Touko doesn't suspect anything regarding Sayaka's feelings. She just thinks Sayaka is the unconditional best friend.

The greatest lies we tell are those we tell ourselves. Touko is not the oblivious type but she is however a queen of denial. Even quite intelligent and perceptive people can end up fooling themselves if it is a lie they want and need to believe in order to protect their psyche. I can't even count how many times in my own life I have stumbled across what was, upon later reflection, a very obvious self deception.

We all have our blind spots. Those things we subconsciously flinch and look away from without even realizing it. The more fragile and damaged the mind, the more blind spots it will tend to have.

One thing I have noticed is that once the evidence is so overwhelming that our subconscious can no longer reconcile what we have seen with the internal lie, it often results one of those stomach churning moments of epiphany where everything clicks into place and your are left reeling from the implications.

This is much like how Touko responds once it is thrown in her face that Yuu loves her. She immediately recognizes the emotional implications of what this means and how it has harmed Yuu. It all snaps into place for her in single moment as the internal wall comes down and the self deception is dispelled.

last edited at Aug 2, 2018 3:13PM

I love how we spend so much time debating about the personalities of fictional characters. It's at the very least proof of how skillful Nakatani is at storytelling. <3

I love how we spend so much time debating about the personalities of fictional characters. It's at the very least proof of how skillful Nakatani is at storytelling. <3

She really is quite good. =)

I’m wondering what you guys think about two fundamental things Touko repeatedly says that have never quite made complete sense to me, and that are linked in the latest chapter:

1) Yuu’s “kindness.” Specific quote: “I thought Yuu was the kindest girl in the world. Because she couldn’t love me.”

I understand why Touko thought that Yuu was someone she could love under her weirdly idiosyncratic criteria, but not why the word “kind” applies to her. “Safe” or “wonderful” or “special,” sure—but how exactly is Yuu being “kind”?

(I mean, Yuu is a kind person, but how does “not being able to love” = kindness? Is this a translation thing?)

2) “Love is a chain.” This is a little more explicable, but still a bit contradictory. Paraphrased, Touko fears being loved because that means if she changes she will not be loved anymore. But that implies that Touko expects that she herself will change in the future, and when she does, she would stop being loved.

Touko, however, has devoted herself (she thinks) to never, ever changing—to always being the simulacrum of her sister’s (what we discover to be false) perfection. So why this extreme dread of what would happen if she changed?

Again, the second one is easier to explain as just Touko’s confused and distorted thinking, but it does seem odd that her central fear is based around an assumption that she will inevitably change when she seems to have devoted herself to not changing.

last edited at Aug 2, 2018 9:36PM

I’m wondering what you guys think about two fundamental things Touko repeatedly says that have never quite made complete sense to me, and that are linked in the latest chapter:

1) Yuu’s “kindness.” Specific quote: “I thought Yuu was the kindest girl in the world. Because she couldn’t love me.”

I understand why Touko thought that Yuu was someone she could love under her weirdly idiosyncratic criteria, but not why the word “kind” applies to her. “Safe” or “wonderful” or “special,” sure—but how exactly is Yuu being “kind”?

(I mean, Yuu is a kind person, but how does “not being able to love” = kindness? Is this a translation thing?)

I think it's something like:
“I thought Yuu was the kindest girl in the world. Because she [accepted my love for her and everything I asked of her even though she] couldn’t love me.”

To Touko, anyone who could do that had to either be in love with her or be extremely kind.

2) “Love is a chain.” This is a little more explicable, but still a bit contradictory. Paraphrased, Youko fears being loved because that means if she changes she will not be loved anymore. But that implies that Touko expects that she herself will change in the future, and when she does, she would stop being loved.

Touko, however, has devoted herself (she thinks) to never, ever changing—to always being the simulacrum of her sister’s (what we discover to be false) perfection. So why this extreme dread of what would happen if she changed?

Again, the second one is easier to explain as just Touko’s confused and distorted thinking, but it does seem odd that her central fear is based around an assumption that she will inevitably change when she seems to have devoted herself to not changing.

Hmm... back when Touko was trying to be her sister, she didn't fear changing. She feared that people fell in love with the image of her acting as her sister. And so, if people saw her as she really was, they'd stop loving her.

Right now, Touko has moved on past that. And now she is changing. She accepted change. Now she fears that people who love her as she is will stop loving her once she changes.

Touko devotes herself to not changing because she thinks in this way she would be securing the love of others around her (in this case, for being just like her sister forever). It's unresolved trauma. In order to cope with the loss and likely the subsequent lack of attention of her grieving parents, she decided to become the person that was lost and associated change (with the implication here of "tragic change") with pain and lack of love.

I'm wondering how many chapters the anime will cover. The pacing in the manga doesn't give the impression that there's much room for further improvement. It'd be quite a tragedy if the plot is rushed. Almost as worrisome would be a "go read the manga" ending.

12 eps would be too little to cover all the materials & 24 eps would be too many. This is why I don't like how almost every anime has to stick to these numbers. It's most likely going to be one cour, so in order for the anime to reach any sort of proper resolution (I'm guessing the play), it will need to cut out some earlier chaps.

I expect 7 manga volumes with 39 chapters in total. 1 cour can absolutely fit 13 episodes which makes it roughly 3 chapters per episode, or approx 2 episodes per volume. I expect the cuts on volume 5 to a single episode due to some filler materials there. And given the level of the scriptwriter/series composition, the anime delivery should be absolutely awesome! I just really hope the director doesn't mess up the rest.

Again, the second one is easier to explain as just Touko’s confused and distorted thinking, but it does seem odd that her central fear is based around an assumption that she will inevitably change when she seems to have devoted herself to not changing.

Yeah I'd say it's just a function of her self-loathing, mostly - especially at the time she says it. She's trying to be like her sister, but because she hates herself she isn't confident in her ability to maintain the front she assumes she has to put up to keep deserving someone's love.

Also, in some regards her finally starting to move past her obsession with emulating her sister - or really, the image SHE had of her sister - is a double edged sword. Now, of course, she EXPECTS herself to change to an extent as she finally allows herself to explore and develop her own identity more freely. But she still fundamentally doesn't think very highly of herself, and still also thinks...well, precisely what she said in the chapter: that if somebody says "I love you" that means they specifically and exclusively love the image of herself she's been presenting, and that if she should ever be unable or unwilling to conform to that image any more, she'll lose that love.

I'm wondering how many chapters the anime will cover. The pacing in the manga doesn't give the impression that there's much room for further improvement. It'd be quite a tragedy if the plot is rushed. Almost as worrisome would be a "go read the manga" ending.

12 eps would be too little to cover all the materials & 24 eps would be too many. This is why I don't like how almost every anime has to stick to these numbers. It's most likely going to be one cour, so in order for the anime to reach any sort of proper resolution (I'm guessing the play), it will need to cut out some earlier chaps.

I expect 7 manga volumes with 39 chapters in total. 1 cour can absolutely fit 13 episodes which makes it roughly 3 chapters per episode, or approx 2 episodes per volume. I expect the cuts on volume 5 to a single episode due to some filler materials there. And given the level of the scriptwriter/series composition, the anime delivery should be absolutely awesome! I just really hope the director doesn't mess up the rest.

There's definitely some easy editing they could do around the play. I love the manga and all but Nio made a bit of an obvious misstep around the play IMO - namely the play went pretty much EXACTLY how we were specifically and explicitly told it would go in the chapters leading up to it. The screenwriter - who's been REALLY good on a bunch of other projects - could easily save a lot of time by skipping a lot of the pre-play explanation or by condensing the play itself into a montage or something.

I think they've got a good shot at catching up with the manga if they're smart about how they edit things, tbh.

last edited at Aug 2, 2018 6:22PM

I’m wondering what you guys think about two fundamental things Touko repeatedly says that have never quite made complete sense to me, and that are linked in the latest chapter:

1) Yuu’s “kindness.” Specific quote: “I thought Yuu was the kindest girl in the world. Because she couldn’t love me.”

This is one of the more ambiguous things Touko has repeatedly stated. I interpreted it as meaning Touko believes the fact that Yuu is willing treat her with the same sort of care and thoughtfulness that a lover would without actually being motivated by that emotion is proof of just what a kind person she is.

It's relatively normal for a person to be willing to go out of their way to help a lover. It takes a truly kind soul to do that same thing for somebody who is a stranger or who they feel nothing for.

last edited at Aug 2, 2018 7:59PM

@cecile

I think it's something like:
“I thought Yuu was the kindest girl in the world. Because she [accepted my love for her and everything I asked of her even though she] couldn’t love me.”

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I thought it had to be too. But that’s an awful lot of words to fill in after the “because” to make it come out right. The literal phrasing just seems so odd.

@Looking East
Agreed also—it’s kind of hard to remember that, up until now, in Touko’s view * Yuu has been a sweet, helpful, insightful, mostly compliant but sometimes feisty young friend who is just doing Touko (what amounts to) an enormous emotional favor.

*EDIT: That is, Touko’s take on what Yuu thinks she’s being to Touko.

We readers know that, in essence, they’ve actually been in a committed but mutually unacknowledged relationship for some time, and we can tend to overlook the degree of denial that was required for Touko to fail to see that there was more to all that being kissed, walking under umbrellas, cuddling in Yuu’s room, heart-to-heart talks on the roof, etc. business than a somewhat quirky friendship on Yuu’s part.

Tl;dr: “She’s not just kind, you fucking idiot—she’s in love with you!”

last edited at Aug 2, 2018 9:40PM

“She’s not just kind, you fucking idiot—she’s in love with you!”

In retrospect, I wish someone had actually said that to Touko in the manga. That would be brilliant.

Just wanted to say that I enjoy reading this discussion. It really does add to the manga.

Any who...

There's something that has been bugging me for a while... And I've been waiting for it since the chapter was released. At the end of chapter 5, Yuu speaks in retrospect. I can't remember the exact quote but it goes along the lines of... "At that time I didn't know I'd have to give up something to stay by her side..."

Was this just volume ending flare to keep the reader interested, is it a mistranslation, or has it already been revealed and I just missed it?

So, yeah, waiting a long time for that "something" to be revealed. However, now that the confession has occurred, I feel that wrapping things up too quickly would just annihilate my "need for drama" addiction. I'd like to see a trust issue arise and be resolved. Trust is very difficult to mend, and Yuu may have had her trust in "love" and Touko shattered. I'd be disappointed if the author goes too lightly on this. Thus, my need for drama. And, we all know what comes after heartbreaking drama that ends with happy reconciliation... makeup sex!!!! Oh wait, we're talking about highschoolers... so just a long kiss with the sunset in the background... sigh...

Just wanted to say that I enjoy reading this discussion. It really does add to the manga.

Any who...

There's something that has been bugging me for a while... And I've been waiting for it since the chapter was released. At the end of chapter 5, Yuu speaks in retrospect. I can't remember the exact quote but it goes along the lines of... "At that time I didn't know I'd have to give up something to stay by her side..."

We’ve been over this before (I think I asked, actually), and I believe the consensus was that Yuu would have to give up the ability to tell Touko how she really felt about her.

And, we all know what comes after heartbreaking drama that ends with happy reconciliation... makeup sex!!!! Oh wait, we're talking about highschoolers... so just a long kiss with the sunset in the background... sigh...

First thought, best thought.

Just wanted to say that I enjoy reading this discussion. It really does add to the manga.

Any who...

There's something that has been bugging me for a while... And I've been waiting for it since the chapter was released. At the end of chapter 5, Yuu speaks in retrospect. I can't remember the exact quote but it goes along the lines of... "At that time I didn't know I'd have to give up something to stay by her side..."

Was this just volume ending flare to keep the reader interested, is it a mistranslation, or has it already been revealed and I just missed it?

So, yeah, waiting a long time for that "something" to be revealed.

It was not a mistranslation. Yuu meant love. In order to be by Touko's side, Yuu had to give up on loving her or anyone at all. It was a promise but more than that, it was Yuu's desire to be with Touko which ended up being stronger than her desire to fall in love. Remember Touko doesn't want to be loved (or didn't want). The Japanese description on the cover of volume 3 confirms what I said. It was something among the lines of "...Yuu, in order to be by Touko's side, decided to give up on love. [I will never fall in love. I haven't so far, and from now on...]..."

However, now that the confession has occurred, I feel that wrapping things up too quickly would just annihilate my "need for drama" addiction. I'd like to see a trust issue arise and be resolved. Trust is very difficult to mend, and Yuu may have had her trust in "love" and Touko shattered. I'd be disappointed if the author goes too lightly on this. Thus, my need for drama. And, we all know what comes after heartbreaking drama that ends with happy reconciliation... makeup sex!!!! Oh wait, we're talking about highschoolers... so just a long kiss with the sunset in the background... sigh...

You see sex between high school girls pretty often in yuri though. 7u7

last edited at Aug 2, 2018 10:27PM

Just wanted heartbreaking drama that ends with happy reconciliation... makeup sex!!!! Oh wait, we're talking about highschoolers... so just a long kiss with the sunset in the background... sigh...

Actually I am hoping for an embarrassed waking up to next to each other scene. Because after this drama and want some humour out of it all. :-)

It's really nice to see such thoughtful discussions on this forum, and I think it really reflects well not just on the people that are posting, but the quality of Nakatani Nio's work. It's a shame that slower paced and more serious dramatic manga aren't more popular, particularly in the yuri genre which I think lends itself to more challenging and complex love stories.

omg thank you nakatani for my life

i cant wait to buy this volume guys immmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm so excited TAKE MY MONEY NAKATANI

last edited at Aug 2, 2018 11:05PM

You see sex between high school girls pretty often in yuri though. 7u7

In fact it's pretty common in real life as well, y'know.

It's really nice to see such thoughtful discussions on this forum, and I think it really reflects well not just on the people that are posting, but the quality of Nakatani Nio's work. It's a shame that slower paced and more serious dramatic manga aren't more popular, particularly in the yuri genre which I think lends itself to more challenging and complex love stories.

Well, this one turned out plenty popular. It runs on Dengeki Daioh and it's getting an anime adaptation, that's popular for you.

But I see what you mean, particularly after both Tsubomi and Hirari ceased publication.

You see sex between high school girls pretty often in yuri though. 7u7

In fact it's pretty common in real life as well, y'know.

I didn't want to admit this.... blush