I guess the fact that it makes people react so much means it's a good drama, somehow?

If getting your blood boiled over how over-exaggeratedly dumb/retarded/toxic all the characters act & over the infuriating/ridiculous situations they get themselves into is what you look for in a drama, then sure, NTR is certified quality drama.

I'd say toxic is the right word. At least in Scum's Wish the toxic nature of the relationships was the point, and even then they weren't anywhere as bad as what Hotaru does.

I guess the fact that it makes people react so much means it's a good drama, somehow?

If getting your blood boiled over how over-exaggeratedly dumb/retarded/toxic all the characters act & over the infuriating/ridiculous situations they get themselves into is what you look for in a drama, then sure, NTR is certified quality drama.

Wouldn't that be boring if there wasn't over exaggeration? I guess it depends on the degree of drama you are willing/able to take. Simple situation and plain reaction can be good, but perhaps they are more fitting for SOL stuff. I think I expect more dramatic stuff when I see the drama tag.

I mean, in my mind, drama is supposed to make you cry of joy and sadness, to make you scream of rage and frustration, cringe of embarrassment, figuratively speaking, of course; the point is to make you feel something and react, exaggerated situations/traits are good for that. I guess there is a limit to what amount of drama one can take. Perhaps I'm confusing drama for tragedy.

I've read many times people complaining about how stupid a character is, as if it was a bad thing; or whatever other flaws they could find (toxic, etc.). I think those make good characters for dramas even though they would make despicable human beings outside of the story. If they have good reasons to be that way, it's okay in my book.

I'm curious now, what is a good drama for you?

last edited at Sep 19, 2017 9:40PM

I guess the fact that it makes people react so much means it's a good drama, somehow?

If getting your blood boiled over how over-exaggeratedly dumb/retarded/toxic all the characters act & over the infuriating/ridiculous situations they get themselves into is what you look for in a drama, then sure, NTR is certified quality drama.

Wouldn't that be boring if there wasn't over exaggeration? I guess it depends on the degree of drama you are willing/able to take. Simple situation and plain reaction can be good, but perhaps they are more fitting for SOL stuff. I think I expect more dramatic stuff when I see the drama tag.

I mean, in my mind, drama is supposed to make you cry of joy and sadness, to make you scream of rage and frustration, cringe of embarrassment, figuratively speaking, of course; the point is to make you feel something and react, exaggerated situations/traits are good for that. I guess there is a limit to what amount of drama one can take. Perhaps I'm confusing drama for tragedy.

I've read many times people complaining about how stupid a character is, as if it was a bad thing; or whatever other flaws they could find (toxic, etc.). I think those make good characters for dramas even though they would make despicable human beings outside of the story. If they have good reasons to be that way, it's okay in my book.

I'm curious now, what is a good drama for you?

For me, it's when something happened but the characters are not bullshitty-dumb

I kinda hate this beating around the bush drama of NTR but I guess the struggle of Hotaru does happen in real life. however, I didn't like how Hotaru fulfilled her fantasy of being with Yuma in a pretense that they were just practicing sex for their boyfriends instead of confessing her true feelings for her. it only made things worse for the both of them but hey, it is the premise of the story.

I don't know how many times I wanted to b*tch slap Hotaru and tell her to just confess to Yuma already. so the unnecessary drama would end. she's already banging her, what's a love confession to worry about.

Wouldn't that be boring if there wasn't over exaggeration? I guess it depends on the degree of drama you are willing/able to take. Simple situation and plain reaction can be good, but perhaps they are more fitting for SOL stuff. I think I expect more dramatic stuff when I see the drama tag.

I mean, in my mind, drama is supposed to make you cry of joy and sadness, to make you scream of rage and frustration, cringe of embarrassment, figuratively speaking, of course; the point is to make you feel something and react, exaggerated situations/traits are good for that. I guess there is a limit to what amount of drama one can take. Perhaps I'm confusing drama for tragedy.

I've read many times people complaining about how stupid a character is, as if it was a bad thing; or whatever other flaws they could find (toxic, etc.). I think those make good characters for dramas even though they would make despicable human beings outside of the story. If they have good reasons to be that way, it's okay in my book.

I'm curious now, what is a good drama for you?

I think you're confusing drama with melodrama a bit there. Drama can just be serious stories in more realistic settings with a lot of conflicts (as opposed to SOL, which is low in conflicts), while melodrama is where everything is highly sensationalized to draw out strong emotional response. Tbh, you can trigger emotions in the audience without over-exaggerate everything. It's easier for me to actually feel something for the characters and the situations they're in when they feel believable & I can actually relate to them. Over-exaggerating characters' personality traits just make them stop feeling like humans, only some plot devices/drama elements/walking archetypes, hence I can't take them or their situations seriously (this works in comedy that requires serious suspension of disbelief). A certain level of exaggeration is fine since fiction is still fiction & 100% realism doesn't always make for a good story. But just over-exaggerating everything only makes everything feel cheapened & forced, especially when the setting and presentation of the story are pretty down-to-earth. (There are works that are pretty surreal in nature and depending on how consistently it is handled, over-exaggeration can be justified in those. An example being Oyasumi Punpun)

Good drama, for me, are ones that know how to properly pace its story & subtly build its characters and their situations in order to immerse the audience in the story that is being told through them. When you come to really get to know and care for the characters as people, you will feel something when they have to go through conflicts, or drama, be it subtle or drastic. The drama preferably shouldn't come out of nowhere just for the sake of putting the characters through shits and making the story "more exciting." Good drama situations should just come out naturally from everything that has been building up in the story so far. Here are some examples of more down-to-earth drama stories that I personally enjoy from the top of my head: Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu, 3gatsu no Lion, Bloom into You, Poor Poor Lips (starts off as a comedy, but does have drama later on), etc. I experienced all sorts of emotions watching/reading these, not because of over-exaggeration, but because I really care for what the characters were going through.

The drama preferably shouldn't come out of nowhere just for the sake of putting the characters through shits and making the story "more exciting."

As much as that reproach could be made toward Citrus (not entirely agreeing on this), NTR only has self-contained drama that comes from inside the story, so at least it has that for itself. Even though it's lazy, I think random appearing drama can be good for a story if done correctly and not repeated, probably.

Otherwise, I kind of agree with everything you've written. Perhaps I'm more a sucker for melodramatic stuff, so that's why I don't mind some stuff that seems unbearable for others. What I'd argue with would be, even if what the character do is really, really stupid, as long as it is in accordance with what we've seen of them so far, I don't think it's bad for the story. Stupid and toxic character aren't bad characters as long as they stay.. in characters. I guess it doesn't help to care for them though; I do in this particular case, the flashback helped me feel sorry for both girls (I was already feeling sorry for Takeda and the blonde guy doesn't need pity).

I guess the limit is blurred though. We don't know everything of a character, so what is and what isn't in character. And at which point a decision/reaction is too extreme to be believable? I guess that determine what a good drama would be for one or another.

It's interesting to see that of the two down to earth drama you've cited and I found on dynasty, one of them doesn't have the drama tag.

Edit : Thanks for the recommendations, Bloom into you seems like a very interesting read. It misses some angsty elements for my tastes but the way it's done (ch4 as of now) is really nice. This is starting to sound like a blog post, apologies.

last edited at Sep 20, 2017 9:31PM

I kinda hate this beating around the bush drama of NTR but I guess the struggle of Hotaru does happen in real life

But, if she didn't beat around the bush, there would be no story! Now it depends if the drama is the centre of the story or part of it.. I guess?

she's already banging her, what's a love confession to worry about.

Dealing with emotions with way scarier than having sex with them. Hotaru is really broken and uses sex as an ersatz of emotional affection. She had numerous partner that she, apparently, ditched every time it started to get emotional and is currently in purely physical (abusive) relationship with another emotionally dead dude, just to indulge themselves.

Sex is easy for her, she does it all the time. Emotions on the other hand.. It cuts deeper and is really hard to deal with.

last edited at Sep 20, 2017 8:24PM

Even though it's lazy, I think random appearing drama can be good for a story if done correctly and not repeated, probably.

Otherwise, I kind of agree with everything you've written. Perhaps I'm more a sucker for melodramatic stuff, so that's why I don't mind some stuff that seems unbearable for others. What I'd argue with would be, even if what the character do is really, really stupid, as long as it is in accordance with what we've seen of them so far, I don't think it's bad for the story. Stupid and toxic character aren't bad characters as long as they stay.. in characters. I guess it doesn't help to care for them though; I do in this particular case, the flashback helped me feel sorry for both girls (I was already feeling sorry for Takeda and the blonde guy doesn't need pity).

You're arguing more on the grounds of tolerance level. it’s totally fine if you can tolerate random drama & annoying characters. It's infuriating for me to watch characters being bad/stupid for the sake of being bad/stupid in drama, so consistent character writing in this case doesn't help much. But at the end of the day, we can agree that random drama & characters being stupid/toxic for the sake of being stupid/toxic are lazy writing. Lazy writing can be tolerable, but I wouldn’t call it good by any means.

Honestly, I don’t even consider all dumb/asshole characters badly-written characters either. While I do get annoyed at them, it really all comes down to how they are handled whether I consider them bad or not. Oyasumi Punpun, for example, was completely filled with fucked up characters & I still think they were incredibly well-written and compelling. & yes, consistent character writing plays a part in it, but it was ultimately because of how fleshed out & sympathetic these characters all felt in the end. Their emotional states, the stories behind their emotional struggles, their desires for change, their struggles to change, etc., each character has unique struggles of their own & they were all so clearly articulated that none of the main characters felt like walking archetypes or one-dimensional assholes. They were just pitiful human beings with their own struggles, insecurities, & emotional needs. Rounded, complex, & sympathetic asshole can be just as good of a character as a highly likeable & relatable one. This applies to nice characters, too, really. One-dimensionally nice characters (Takeda) can be likeable characters, but they’re not exactly well-written characters.

I guess the limit is blurred though. We don't know everything of a character, so what is and what isn't in character. And at which point a decision/reaction is too extreme to be believable? I guess that determine what a good drama would be for one or another.

The point of storytelling is to present the characters so that their motivations and reasons for their actions/behaviors are clear to the audience, or at least clear enough that you can understand them even if you don't like them, like "oh yeah, I can totally imagine myself doing that if I were going through the same" or "I have seen many who act this way because of similar situations." Story becomes unbelievable at the point where you start to question "are characters this stupid/evil actually exist?" or "Do situations this stupid actually happen in real life?" If you have to pull the "it's not common, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen" or the "there might be terrible people like this out there... somewhere" card to try and defend the story, it's a pretty good indication that the story is pretty unbelievable. But yeah, this can be rather subjective. If we’re just gonna talk about subjective views on what makes a good drama, then we’re going nowhere since there’s no point arguing over tastes, really. These are some of the things we can agree on about NTR: It’s a melodrama that over-exaggerates everything, characters don’t feel human and are overly dumb/toxic, the drama is at least somewhat self-contained, it tries to give backstories to its characters to explain their motivations. Now, you can look at these & think it’s good, while I can look at the same & think it’s bad. To each their own.

Edit : Thanks for the recommendations, Bloom into you seems like a very interesting read. It misses some angsty elements for my tastes but the way it's done (ch4 as of now) is really nice. This is starting to sound like a blog post, apologies.

No prob. BiY is drama. Not the kind people would expect when they think of drama though. It's more slow-burn & subtle, but still intense nevertheless. & don't worry about making blog posts here, I'm guilty of it a lot of the time myself. Like this one.

last edited at Sep 21, 2017 5:17PM

No prob. BiY is drama. Not the kind people would expect when they think of drama though.

Yeah, exactly what I thought. Maybe we haven't seen enough of Touko's inner struggles (and Yuu's), but I think this story will deserve an Aaaaaaaangst tag very soon, depending on how the events will play out. Loving the low-key/feel good drama, it's a nice balance with my other reads.

See, I think there's a thing that happens when I love a story and people criticize it (vehemently or not). When somebody says "the story you like sucks", my first reaction is to think "no, you suck, fuck you!". Then, I calm down and see what they really have to say about it, if they say nothing more than just "it sucks", I brush it off but if not, I try to argue with them, see what they don't like exactly and then defend the series, because I like it. Does my need to defend it means the story is bad?

Of course, it's just their opinion, to some degree, so in the end it shouldn't matter and everybody can move on to other things. It does feel like I'm verging toward a question preferences and subjectivity because it's hard for me to determine what is a good story objectively, what are the criteria, does it need to appeal to a broader audience or only a few really educated reader, etc. And you gave pretty good description of what you like in a drama, that helps me understand more why you don't like this or why you like that. It's still interesting to share views even if it's subjective.

I'd say that, for me, a good story is one which delivers what was promised. And that's kind of why I was talking about tolerance level, because perhaps people don't like melodramas so when the dramas are going for something a little more "extreme", they go "it's too unbelievable, it's so bad, etc." when it actually delivers what was promised. Something like "judge something for what it is, not what it could be", or something?

On the case of NTR, just a bit of rambling, Hotaru is some kind of cunt but what she does makes sense when you realise that she probably hates herself and worshipped Yuma, Yuma's confused and hurt from seeing her childhood friend getting fucked by every guy around, etc. that are the "extreme" tortured parts that make this story interesting for me. Things happen on an higher degree of what could happen in "real life". It's not like I love this series, but maybe I like being the devil's advocate there so I can't help to defend it; it has the potential of sparking interesting discussion.

P.S. A thing that anon wrote on /u/

"Realism doesn't make things right for a story. Pure realism is a documentation. A story idealizes certain things and needs to bring over some kind of point."

Kind of what I'm thinking, suspension of disbelief and all, I guess the point where it breaks for somebody help them to put a value on the story.

last edited at Sep 24, 2017 10:32AM

Well, caught on with the latest chapters. Nice. It is somewhat strange to see Yuma, whose extreme denseness was so annoying in earlier chapters, to be this straightforward, and aware of things. Strange, but very nice. Although, why on earth is she doing it is beyond me. I mean, sure, she is in love, it is also obvious Hotaru reciprocates, but feelings are not everything. When someone puts another person though as much crap as Hotaru did here, they usually split, despite the feelings. I have no problem with people who accept the horrible traits of their partners, but that is not how Yuma was portrayed here. She felt genuinely betrayed and hurt, but now she is going forward as if nothing happened.

My money is on Hotaru rejecting her. Something about that unease on her face, eyes to the side, plus what Klice said about Hotaru's fear of emotional attachment, and the fact it is Kodama. We shall see, we shall see.

"Surely, there's nothing wrong with one person loving another." And that entire look of 'I accept the situation and support you'. He turned out to be a genuinely nice guy. He had some ups and downs, but he more than made up for it by supporting Yuma when she needed it the most. Lol, I still remember when people painted him as nothing but a horny adolescent who just wants to get into her pants.

last edited at Oct 11, 2017 7:14PM

Latest chapter from ChaosTeam : it went from stupid to stupider.

Hotaru crying and giving up just was out of character and the sex scene just came out of nowhere and was expedited like it was bothering the author to draw it, but she had to, because that's what readers wanted. As for the upcoming forced drama, with Hotaru's Father/Brother/Pimp/whatever I just can't bring myself to care.

last edited at Nov 5, 2017 6:44PM

Its the new tenant, Hotaru moved out. During her "pregnancy trip" she was checking out a new place to live.

Is it really necessary to use spoiler tags since it doesn't look like the chapters will ever be uploaded here?

Well, better safe than sorry I guess.

somewhat strange to see Yuma, whose extreme denseness was so annoying in earlier chapters, to be this straightforward, and aware of things. Strange, but very nice. Although, why on earth is she doing it is beyond me. I mean, sure, she is in love, it is also obvious Hotaru reciprocates, but feelings are not everything. When someone puts another person though as much crap as Hotaru did here, they usually split, despite the feelings. I have no problem with people who accept the horrible traits of their partners, but that is not how Yuma was portrayed here. She felt genuinely betrayed and hurt, but now she is going forward as if nothing happened.

Well, when you love someone you try to make it work, sometimes beyond reason. And we're talking about highschoolers there, I won't be expecting maturity and pure logic (which is unattainable even outside of highschool), and to be honest, I don't think things were that extreme. I mean, I've read/heard some stories with schizophrenic guys, abortions and stuff and they still tried to make it work for years - the stuff that is happening in this manga is really tame in comparison.

That's why I didn't (fully) get the hate for the protagonists. I feel everything is blown out of proportions because of the melodrama tone : it's not like they spent several years on their respective relationships and their lives will* be ruined because of this, it's highschool romance after all. Well, Yuma's image suffered a bit, but the psychological trauma isn't that strong. So perhaps, as she finally accept her feelings, Yuma is going "fuck it, I don't want to regret a thing" and is actually trying to start something with Hotaru.

"Surely, there's nothing wrong with one person loving another." And that entire look of 'I accept the situation and support you'. He turned out to be a genuinely nice guy. He had some ups and downs, but he more than made up for it by supporting Yuma when she needed it the most. Lol, I still remember when people painted him as nothing but a horny adolescent who just wants to get into her pants.

Really? Haha, from the start he's portrayed as such a nice guy and always has the correct reactions that I could argue he's almost Gary Stu (except the main girl doesn't fall for him, poor guy or good for him some would say). All things considered, maybe that's why people were so keen on hating the two girls, because if the nice guy suffers, it's not cool.

Hotaru crying and giving up just was out of character and the sex scene just came out of nowhere [...].

Why? It's what she wanted from the start, to keep being Yuma's centre of attention. It's even supported by the flashback scenes of Hotaru seeing Yuma being away from her. The sex scene follows naturally because they finally (temporarily?) accepted each other feelings; although I can give you that it looks very rushed and doesn't have the impact it deserved inside the story.

About the ensuing drama.. Perhaps Hotaru is hopeless, perhaps the author is forced to prolonged the series. I shall wait the future chapters to see if it works!

I'm wondering if authors of that kind of story receive bad taste messages of unhappy readers or haters... In the author page there is a very unsavory message insulting the author, although they won't ever come here - and I wonder how much it could affect their love for their own story.

last edited at Nov 13, 2017 10:06AM

Seems like it might be ending next chapter (26), which would be a bummer. Hope she doesn't rush the fuck out of this.

Seems like it might be ending next chapter (26), which would be a bummer. Hope she doesn't rush the fuck out of this.

I interpreted the latest as the natural next step after Yuma finally confronted Hotaru - the series would be over unless Hotaru left, plus all the build-up to her moving had foreshadowed it fairly well. It's following that same kind of soap opera logic it has all along. Though I wouldn't be too surprised if it ended soon. I've seen a large number of series where a character suddenly disappears, then there's a time skip, then they reunite next chapter and it's over. Including one by this same author.

I've only watched the anime series of this, which is really short (12 10mn episodes), and I kinda liked it, but the real hero of the entire anime is Takeda, who will remain forever Good Guy Takeda, sacrificing his love for the sake of yuri ! I cry everytime

last edited at Dec 3, 2017 4:39PM

Takeda's sure the MVP of this story. He even was level-headed enough to break up with Yuma really quickly, the poor guy just got taken back by his emotions. I don't know if it's because I'm used to immature characters or because I have a negative outlook on people in general, but it's almost as if Takeda is the most unrealistic character here.

He's doing everything he's supposed to! That's not normal.

last edited at Dec 4, 2017 11:50AM

Chapter spoilers are out and as expected, it was the last one.

It has a happy ending at least

This shit's finally over, uh ?

They mutually fucked, huh. What a time to be alive.

Well, it's finally over.

Can't say it was very well done, but the ending was nice anyway. Rushed, but nice. I think the editor asked Kodama to wrap it up because the ratings were probably not that good.

All the drama and angst petered out into some "trust issue" and Hotaru became some meek dependent kitten toward Yuma, after being a bitch.

Nice they became a couple, but can't say it was gold. Bronze at best.

This shit's finally over, uh ?

Nope, you're still here apparently 8-°

Overall I enjoyed it, nice angst and all, probably a bit rushed like Nya-chan said. But a nice story about teenagers discovering their feelings for each other and the struggles that comes with it, I guess.

All the drama and angst petered out into some "trust issue" and Hotaru became some meek dependent kitten toward Yuma, after being a bitch.

Trust and abandonment issues as well, I think. As with many mean characters, it seems that this her bitchy side was a façade out of self-pity/loathing/sacrificing to protect Yuma and, in a way, to protect herself. Some kind of comfort in misery which is known territory and way less frightening than happiness. After all, happiness can go away, misery will never leave you!

But in the end, she's just a kid, so of course when all she desires is offered to her, she will drop her façade and get along with it. I guess it would have been nice to see more of Yuma trying to convince Hotaru, but well, reality always come back at some point.

Well finally finished the series, honestly it felt like a waste of time. A lot of dancing around issues that turned a story that should been like 1 volume into several. And unlike Citrus it didn't have the interesting supporting characters to keep me reading.

Still not as terrible as Lemonade or Happy End.

last edited at Feb 13, 2018 3:58PM

Finally done. Three words: I LOVE IT. Rushed or not, the happy ending kept me pretty satisfied. And one has got to admit that the extra is good, especially the yaoi one, saw that coming since the double dates lol,why Fujiwara has not confessed yet now that Takeda is single is a question to me xD