I think you're misreading Botan. What they did to her was a betrayal on a very deep level. Her decision to leave was completely justified. Relationships need boundaries. If someone violates your trust that completely and destroys something you care about, it's perfectly reasonable to leave and never speak to them again.

Maybe she perceived what they did as a betrayal, but it's not nearly as simple as that. She apparently assumed that she could keep this relationship and her family separate, and that it wouldn't be a problem. Which is clearly foolish, as Murphy's law applies. She wasn't exactly subtle about how she was hiding something, so of course her family would be worried about it and want to pursue the matter, and of course they were going to assume the worst once they got a clue. Not speaking to any of them about it was an incredibly poor decision, and guilt-tripping them afterwards was uncalled for. Her sisters may have made bad choices in the heat of the moment and regretted them later, but if Botan thinks she played her cards exactly right she is sorely mistaken.

Not speaking to any of them about it was an incredibly poor decision, and guilt-tripping them afterwards was uncalled for. Her sisters may have made bad choices in the heat of the moment and regretted them later, but if Botan thinks she played her cards exactly right she is sorely mistaken.

The way they confronted her was guaranteed to cause massive problems for her. That was the betrayal. They could have dealt with it some other way, but instead they went with the most awful and invasive way to address it. She clearly made mistakes, but what they did to her caused irrevocable damage. She decided that she didn't want people who would do that to her in her life any longer, and so she left. I think that is an understandable decision.

Parnifia the Bastard posted:

I think you're misreading Botan. What they did to her was a betrayal on a very deep level. Her decision to leave was completely justified. Relationships need boundaries. If someone violates your trust that completely and destroys something you care about, it's perfectly reasonable to leave and never speak to them again.

She apparently assumed that she could keep this relationship and her family separate, and that it wouldn't be a problem.

Which she did until stubborn guy hit her by mistake and siblings assumed something was wrong and they assumed that she is in abusive relationship and then without talking they found different guy and assumed it was the guy who hit her and abused him without any proof. Yea, clearly it was her fault. And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

She wasn't exactly subtle about how she was hiding something, so of course her family would be worried about it and want to pursue the matter, and of course they were going to assume the worst once they got a clue.

And that somehow justify them basically assuming everything, misunderstanding situation, taking action without talking to Botan at all and actually hurting her in the process?

Not speaking to any of them about it was an incredibly poor decision, and guilt-tripping them afterwards was uncalled for.

Not speaking to them about something that they didn't need to know, weren't affect by and so far lived perfectly fine without knowing was indeed a incredibly poor decision.

Her sisters may have made bad choices in the heat of the moment and regretted them later, but if Botan thinks she played her cards exactly right she is sorely mistaken.

By "bad choices in the heat of the moment", you mean how they spend a lot of time talking about it between themselves, strategizing what to do, stalking Botan to find the guy that hurt her (and failed) and then abusing him without any proof he was the guy or really anything and making a scene that in the only hurt Botan instead of helping her? You mean that exact moment? Yea, Botan totally failed to deliver her cards here to prevent her siblings acting on their own and ruining everything, which somehow is justified when they do it, because they are family and care about her, even if in the end their actions leave her deeply hurt.

last edited at Apr 4, 2018 11:31PM

Nevri posted:

She apparently assumed that she could keep this relationship and her family separate, and that it wouldn't be a problem.

Which she did until stubborn guy hit her by mistake and siblings assumed something was wrong and they assumed that she is in abusive relationship and then without talking they found different guy and assumed it was the guy who hit her and abused him without any proof. Yea, clearly it was her fault. And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

You haven't know many women in abusive relationships, have you? It's exceedingly common for them to try and hide things. Her siblings' reactions in that regard was perfectly logical. As was them assuming the guy she was with was the same one who hit her. After all it's completely freaking normal to think that people aren't in relationships with multiple people at once.

And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

And look how that turned out for her. She tried to hide something from her family who obviously cares for her and because of that they got the wrong idea. So yea, it's completely her fault even if her siblings didn't make the best decisions themselves.

Alice Cheshire posted:

Nevri posted:

She apparently assumed that she could keep this relationship and her family separate, and that it wouldn't be a problem.

Which she did until stubborn guy hit her by mistake and siblings assumed something was wrong and they assumed that she is in abusive relationship and then without talking they found different guy and assumed it was the guy who hit her and abused him without any proof. Yea, clearly it was her fault. And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

You haven't know many women in abusive relationships, have you? It's exceedingly common for them to try and hide things. Her siblings' reactions in that regard was perfectly logical. As was them assuming the guy she was with was the same one who hit her. After all it's completely freaking normal to think that people aren't in relationships with multiple people at once.

And even when they noticed the bruise she did try to hid it, because she never told them anything about it, because it was none of their business.

And look how that turned out for her. She tried to hide something from her family who obviously cares for her and because of that they got the wrong idea. So yea, it's completely her fault even if her siblings didn't make the best decisions themselves.

Yea, she tried to keep something private that was not hurting them in any way. How dare she have secrets from her family! And the most likely reason she didn't tell them then and tried to still keep it secret (she actually even said to Kashiwa, she might talk to her about it someday) was because it was about having casual sex with a guy that got serious so she had to cut it short. I imagine not the easiest topic to tell your younger siblings about. Also she probably worried that she would need to explain why she doesn't want to have serious relationship. Let's not even talk about her possibly admitting to sleeping with married man. She would never hear the end of it. They would constantly tell her to break it off for her sake.

last edited at Apr 5, 2018 12:00AM

And look how that turned out for her. She tried to hide something from her family who obviously cares for her and because of that they got the wrong idea. So yea, it's completely her fault even if her siblings didn't make the best decisions themselves.

If someone with the very best of intentions, who cares about you very much, acts in what they believe to be your best interest and ruins your life, what do you do? Her leaving was a justifiable response.

schuyguy posted:

If someone with the very best of intentions, who cares about you very much, acts in what they believe to be your best interest and ruins your life, what do you do? Her leaving was a justifiable response.

It's not justified at all? Getting angry, sure. I can understand that even if she was the one in the wrong overall. Context matters though. They were all quite worried about her and they were very blatantly not trying to "ruin her life" or anything idiotic like that. You don't cut off family because of a single mistake. Most normal people wouldn't even consider cutting off family until after they've made it clear they're only going to be a malicious force in their life.

It doesn't matter whose fault it was. And this is beyond "getting angry". What happened to her was clearly so painful that she never wanted to see them again.

Lol, this discussion is reminding me I rage-quit this thing at chapter 11. I just... could not keep reading it, because the remaining protagonists were literal crap for me.

And look how that turned out for her. She tried to hide something from her family who obviously cares for her and because of that they got the wrong idea. So yea, it's completely her fault even if her siblings didn't make the best decisions themselves.

No, it is absolutely not her fault. It only appears so if you think that caring for someone gives you a licence to meddle in their lives without their approval. Problem is, that mindset only works in practice if all the parties share it, in other words, if everyone is fine with the meddling. Botan obviously was not. Nevri here is demonstrating the same. And I too agree with them. Some people feel strongly about their privacy, and do not want to share certain aspects of their lives. With anyone. If so, respect their boundaries and back the hell off, my own family learned this the hard way after I completely ignored one of my parents for 7 years after stuff happened. Not everyone has the same understanding of privacy, and you really ought to respect each person's standing on this regardless of your fucking feelings. Fuck, flashbacks, this is why I quit this crap...

Also, lmfao, "her siblings didn't make the best decisions themselves", are you fucking kidding me?? That is putting it mildly, lol. If they felt like invading her privacy was the only option, the basic courtesy they could have extended to her (and one which would have saved them all a lot of heartache) was to do what they decided to do anyway in the end, which is to talk to her, only before going and screwing everything up.

Also, again, same sentence, because the amount of... stuff... you packed into it is just ridiculous, "it's completely her fault". Yes, the actions of other people are completely her fault. Conscious, stupid, downright retarded and not in the heat of the moment decisions that other people made without bothering to inform themselves properly are, somehow, the fault of those who were not involved in the process of making said retarded decisions. Brilliant logic. 10/10.

But the reason I rage-quit this crap is actually this page. The colossal fuckup they did only made me furious, this is what made me outright quit. "We want you blabla." We. We. Yeah, you can see where I am going with this. We want you to marry. We want this for your life. We want that for your life. Because we care. And we just destroyed your life over it. Fuck. No. Lmao, if these were their parents saying this crap, especially if it was the father, you would not be here trying to defend it.
Also note, none of them mentioned the suspected abuse when Botan confronted them. At all. Instead, it was about marriage and cheating. No, fuck them.

Only good thing is, she actually did what I would have done, and walked out on the little shits. So that was some satisfaction. But after that, I had no incentive to continue reading, I honestly could not care any more what happens to them.

Edit: See, this is exactly what I was talking about.

You don't cut off family because of a single mistake.

You can cut off anyone for anything, "family" is not a magical word that binds you together regardless of what you do to each other, lol. Also, way to downplay it. "A single mistake", lmao. That ruined Botan's life as she had been living it at the time. But it sure sounds a minor fucking thing when you boil it down to a "single mistake". Also, it was not a "single" mistake, it was a whole series of mistakes that they did more or less with premeditation.

It's not justified at all?

Holy shit, there is nothing to justify here! You are not obligated to have your family be a part of your life, just as you are not obligated to have any person be a part of your life. Botan does not need to justify her stance. Your whole argument basically rests on the premise people should not have the right to walk out on other people, especially if we are talking about family, unless multiple compelling reasons are brought forth for them doing so. Like, holy fuck, you do realise human relationships outside of like, workplace, rely on emotions, right? Are we now obligated to justify our emotions? Should we also date people we do not like simply because we do not have a better reason for turning them down other than the lack of romantic attraction?

last edited at Apr 5, 2018 5:06AM

A note I forgot to mention, that neat (and not really accurate) chart Gwennie made basically summarises why they wrecked Botan's life. They tried putting her in this nice little box they constructed for her, of how her life should look like, at least from their perspective. Sure, it was their caring that made them think like this, but it was still sorely misplaced. And now other people are putting her in nice little charts because she did not actually want the nice little box her family so lovingly constructed for her, and was, shockingly, satisfied with her life as it was, not taking kindly to it being destroyed. If only life was as simple as to fit on two-axis charts. Also, lol, Momiji level-headed? Are you serious?

Tying in to my previous comment, Botan did not need to justify her stance, but she did it anyway. Explained to them why she was leaving, and she explained it quite well, I might add. Plus, she carried herself quite calmly, considering the situation. Many people, myself included, would have ended the whole affair on a much harsher note.

I am stressing I am not commenting on the cheating aspect, or any of that. Whatever I think of that, and whatever they thought of it, it was not their business to get involved, especially not in the manner they went about doing it.

You bring up (or allude to) some very obvious parallels to Botan's situation and decision which convince me even further that her choice to leave was understandable and justified. I won't say it was the right thing to do because it's something that comes down to weighing how much you value a relationship and what degree of personal violation you're willing to put up with for the sake of continuing the relationship. Different people would make different choices in her position. I'm almost certain I wouldn't cut off my family if something similar happened to me.

But she had no obligation to accept what they'd done. If she was a parent rather than a sister, things would be different, but as is she owed them nothing. She decided that the best way to take care of herself was to never speak to these people who had hurt her ever again, and I don't anyone could be blamed for doing that.

I just finished this manga, and I've got to say I really liked it. Even if I think some of the characters are kinda shitty people, especially Botan, because they're understandable even if they are shitty people. But I feel like a lot of people are mistaking understandable for justified or right. Which seems especially silly 'cause I can't help but imagine that even if you don't think her sisters' behavior was justified, you should at least be able to understand why they're worried and trying to figure out what's going on with their sister who doesn't tell them anything when she comes home late with a bruise she's clearly lying to them about.

It's understandable Botan is dissatisfied with her life and carrying serious emotional baggage. It's understandable that when the family she sacrificed so much for and worked so hard for ruins the one thing she found comfort in that she runs off and disappears. But her emotional baggage sure as hell doesn't justify her sleeping with a married man and knowingly doing something that would tear a family apart. "...I see you believe your family's love is free endless." she says as she sleeps with him. She knows damn well the repercussions of this. Not only that it can be seen as a confession of her love running out for her own family that she's tired of and sees as a burden. This feeling of betrayal also doesn't in anyway justify her abandoning Momiji leaving her with even more baggage and abandonment issues.

She's a horrible person, an understandable one who's been through more than her fair share of shit in life, but still a horrible person. The fact that horrible things have been done to someone doesn't justify them doing horrible things to other people, and she open admits to the fact that she didn't give a damn about what was right when sleeping with that married man. Perhaps if the manga was longer we could have seen a proper redemption for her (beyond a possible phone call at the end) but as it is she was a pretty terrible person. And even if she did get that eventual redemption, it wouldn't make what she did any less horrible.

Understandable doesn't mean justified, and certainly doesn't make right. And if you can understand that for her sisters who handled the affair thing horribly by suddenly revealing it like that when they acted out of concern for their sister, you should certainly understand that when it comes to Botan as well. Especially when you stop consider the fact that that affair put her at risk of getting fired and losing their livelihood if it was discovered, but she didn't care. Whether the sisters or anyone else did, the end result would have been the same. The sisters just make a convenient target for her because they happened to be the ones who revealed it and she's already fed up with them.

And you wanna know the biggest problem with Botan? She entirely missed Kashiwa's attempt at talking to her about stuff. That line Kashiwa said about how she considered transitioning and just disappearing? Well she didn't do that, and the entire point of that was "I almost locked things away without ever saying anything to my family, but I didn't, and I don't want you to either. I'm here to talk if you need it." But she didn't talk. She brooded on her own, she lied to her own family, yet felt completely betrayed because her brother wasn't going to tell her about the transitioning and just disappear. She was essentially doing the very same thing to the rest of her family that she considered so hurtful from Kashiwa, completely cutting them out of her life and hiding everything from them even while still living with them.

Edit: And that's the big theme of this manga, I feel. The most important part. It ends with the four sisters realizing that there's more to family than just being related to each other and living near other. Which is exactly what Botan's state was after Kashiwa left for college. Throughout the manga she's basically just like their dad providing money just while also being physically present, but she's emotionally gone already. Remember, the reason she's coming home late and not making food like she used to is because she's busy having casual sex with multiple people, including a married man. It's not that she's too busy to, she's emotionally checked out and moved on already.

The recurring theme of this work is people needing to be open and talking to others and trying to find solutions to problems together and supporting each other rather than doing crazy desperate things on their own. A lot of the conflict is from characters making poor decisions on how to handle their problems. Uozumi and Sakura's relationship is this way, with her being too tsun and not enough dere at the start and him picking a stupid way to try to get over her. Even Momiji's little bit with her fat friend is all about him finding someone to talk to about the otaku stuff instead of hiding it and trying to pretend to be something he's not (certainly an apt thing in a manga starring a transexual).

This is highlighted with Kashiwa and her girlfriend trying to work through the seemingly impossible problem of a straight girl and a MtF being in a relationship. Whether they're able to or not we'll never know, but they're at least making an attempt and that's only possible because they're being open and trying to work through it together. As well as her finding the bravery to open up to her family about it.

Things accumulate to the point with Botan leaving the house because of this. On both ends. If the sisters had spoken with Botan first the worst case scenario may have been avoided even if she still felt a bit betrayed by them butting into her business. If Botan had spoken about her frustrations rather than having an affair as an outlet for them, the whole thing may have been avoided entirely.

last edited at Apr 8, 2018 12:12PM

Wow, I can’t even stomach past chapter 4. Sounds like shit gets even worse later on. I had such high hopes too.

I don't trust anyone who was defending Botan in this comment section

I couldn't care less about all the het parts of the story, or this Botan person trying to somehow take the moral high road about cheating (somehow it's her sisters' faults, for telling the married man's family that he was cheating with her???).
I was here for what looked like it might be a trans-positive lesbian relationship... which ended up only barely teetering on the edge of being trans-positive in the end! Wowza!

The point wasn't that Botan cheating was good, but that her family butting in without even talking to her first and thus ruining not only the affair, but the guy's, his wife's, and their little daughter's lives. Acting without properly thinking first, they handled it in the worst way possible, and Botan having enough of their selfish shit and leaving is fully justified.
Also, 15 chapters later and I'm still waiting on that "yuri". Did I miss a side couple? And no, pre-OP trans x woman is not yuri, just like how futa isn't, or how two crossdressing girls fucking each other doesn't make something yaoi. I don't know how something that simple can be so difficult to grasp for some.

WollMilchWombat posted:

The point wasn't that Botan cheating was good, but that her family butting in without even talking to her first and thus ruining not only the affair, but the guy's, his wife's, and their little daughter's lives.

Right, it's all their fault that Botan and the guy were having an affair. Totally not the guy's for cheating on his wife nor Botan's for knowing he was cheating on his wife or anything like that. Yup, totally the fault of Botan's family.

Also, 15 chapters later and I'm still waiting on that "yuri". Did I miss a side couple? And no, pre-OP trans x woman is not yuri, just like how futa isn't, or how two crossdressing girls fucking each other doesn't make something yaoi. I don't know how something that simple can be so difficult to grasp for some.

Ah wait, you clearly have absolutely no idea what the fuck you're talking about to begin with so never mind.

Also, 15 chapters later and I'm still waiting on that "yuri". Did I miss a side couple? And no, pre-OP trans x woman is not yuri, just like how futa isn't, or how two crossdressing girls fucking each other doesn't make something yaoi. I don't know how something that simple can be so difficult to grasp for some.

Leave this bullshit at the door, or get the hell out. Nobody needs your bigotry.

Right, it's all their fault that Botan and the guy were having an affair. Totally not the guy's for cheating on his wife nor Botan's for knowing he was cheating on his wife or anything like that. Yup, totally the fault of Botan's family.

I never said it wasn't. They both knew what they were getting themselves into, including the possible consequences, and are horrible people for doing it anyway. But as I said, the sisters handled it in the worst way possible. They could have talked to Botan. Failing that, they could have talked to the guy in private instead of ambushing him in front of his house like a bunch of thugs. It could have been resolved quietly, without hurting anyone further. The morality of that is questionable, but I'd argue it's preferred to what happened. And what happened is that a scene had to be made, no-body was consulted beforehand, and they just assured a little girl won't be growing up with her father around, or maybe seeing him once every two months. Good job. Maybe she'll be better off, maybe the family was dysfunctional and on the verge of breaking anyway, but we don't know that, so we cannot make any such assumptions.

Leave this bullshit at the door, or get the hell out. Nobody needs your bigotry.

My deepest apologies for not expecting to get any dicks sprung on me in my yuri and actually daring to think that I'll get what it says on the label.

Don't even try to get me wrong, I have nothing against stories about or involving trans people, but using the yuri tag in this one is more confusing than helpful. First, the relationship between the two isn't even mentioned or visible in the majority of chapters, yet the entire story is tagged as such. Second, throughout the entirety of the manga, Kashiwa remains pre-OP. Physically, she is a man, she has a penis, and she even outright mentions it. Sure, she doesn't like to be called a man, and that's fine, but until she gets enough money together and bites that bullet, she'll be one, whether she likes it or not. Welcome to life. Third, by the logic of pure self-identification, futanari relationships should be tagged "yuri" as well, since they identify overwhelmingly as female after all, and some even hate their dick, much like Kashiwa here, so why wouldn't you? Why would you be so bigoted towards futas? Because it's not yuri if there's a wiener involved, it's that incredibly simple. This shit isn't even about gender politics, such arguments have no place here, it's about having clear and logical tag definitions and boundaries. Even sadpanda has long since left this site behind in that regard, and they've had some glaring clarity issues for ages.

At this point, considering that a (pre-op or not) transwoman is a real woman or not is like a religion for each side: there's no point in arguing because it's become a matter of faith.

Transwomen are women. It doesn't matter what stage of transitioning or even what their future plans for surgery or not entail. For something that is "not even about gender politics" your entire argument reeks of TERF rhetorical bullshit. You and all your closed-minded kin can get yourselves out of the Independent Republic of Scotland. Enjoy your vacation.

At this point, considering that a (pre-op or not) transwoman is a real woman or not is like a religion for each side: there's no point in arguing because it's become a matter of faith.

I've never been a particularly religious man.

Transwomen are women. It doesn't matter what stage of transitioning or even what their future plans for surgery or not entail. For something that is "not even about gender politics" your entire argument reeks of TERF rhetorical bullshit. You and all your closed-minded kin can get yourselves out of the Independent Republic of Scotland. Enjoy your vacation.

It would help a lot if people stopped putting words into my mouth and intentions into my mind. A lack of insults would also be appreciated. This is not about the question whether trans women can be women or not, but about the yuri tag itself and why someone thought it wise to use here, even though the relationship clearly, as stated by both people, involves a dick. The tags on dynasty have always felt more like a lazy afterthought in general, but something like this going unchallenged still leaves me baffled.

It would help a lot if people stopped putting words into my mouth and intentions into my mind. A lack of insults would also be appreciated.

Yes, because things like

I don't know how something that simple can be so difficult to grasp for some.

Because it's not yuri if there's a wiener involved, it's that incredibly simple.

aren't insulting and

Sure, she doesn't like to be called a man, and that's fine, but until she gets enough money together and bites that bullet, she'll be one, whether she likes it or not. Welcome to life.

two crossdressing girls fucking each other doesn't make something yaoi.

are neither insulting nor shows your intention of arguing against transwomen being women. It's two women in a lesbian relationship, that's yuri, it's that incredibly simple. I don't know what it is with you entitled asshats that go around spewing this kind of vile shit and then demand people give you respect you haven't earned but you can fuck off with it.

WollMilchWombat was given a clear choice, and decided to double down. So they're accordingly taking a month off.

Nya-chan, your comment was neither appropriate, accurate, or helpful. Please keep such things to yourself in future.

from the description and first few chapters i did not expect this no be nearly as intense. cried a lot, but enjoyed it. this was honestly much more forward thinking about trans folks than i expected.